Torque EULA Discussion
by Michael Perry · in General Discussion · 07/18/2010 (8:13 pm) · 154 replies
Hey everyone,
After much discussion, debate, and confusion, we decided to create a thread dedicated to the latest Torque EULA. It now applies to all Torque products, which we introduced it in the July 2010 site update. You can view it here: Torque End User License Agreement.
Please take this time to ask questions, request clarification, express concerns, or anything else you feel is valuable to helping us improve the agreements. We look forward to a productive discussion, and know this thread exists to not only ensure the protection of our products but to make sure your projects are see release as smoothly as possible.
After much discussion, debate, and confusion, we decided to create a thread dedicated to the latest Torque EULA. It now applies to all Torque products, which we introduced it in the July 2010 site update. You can view it here: Torque End User License Agreement.
Please take this time to ask questions, request clarification, express concerns, or anything else you feel is valuable to helping us improve the agreements. We look forward to a productive discussion, and know this thread exists to not only ensure the protection of our products but to make sure your projects are see release as smoothly as possible.
About the author
Programmer.
#102
You're starting to cross that line again.
Anything with legal takes time. The legal team was on vacation when this thread was originally started, less than three weeks ago. When they got back the issues raised here were forwarded to them to see how the EULA could be improved and, as Eric already stated, when the draft comes back he'll share it. In the mean time, please be patient.
08/06/2010 (4:15 am)
@CayloYou're starting to cross that line again.
Anything with legal takes time. The legal team was on vacation when this thread was originally started, less than three weeks ago. When they got back the issues raised here were forwarded to them to see how the EULA could be improved and, as Eric already stated, when the draft comes back he'll share it. In the mean time, please be patient.
#103
08/06/2010 (7:03 am)
EDITED: This post 'was' unnecessary. Too many words to express a rather simple concept. 
#104
www.torquepowered.com/community/forums/viewthread/118897
08/07/2010 (12:06 am)
I have an issue related to the new (T3D) EULA...www.torquepowered.com/community/forums/viewthread/118897
#105
08/07/2010 (12:26 am)
Huh, I didn't see that one yesterday. That's not really a EULA issue though, it's a site issue.
#106
In consideration of stated evidence, I dont believe I am anyplace NEAR crossing a line with my complaints, in fact I think there is growing evidence that TorquePowered is crossing a line expecting us to believe "Anything with legal takes time.", and that this past several weeks amount of time is perfectly reasonable for something as important as a EULA redraft, and only a DRAFT at that.
The continuation of casting the attitude that complainers are truly unreasonable in right to be complaining, is exceedingly immature as a TorquePowered defensive mechanism. Use some real details to support rebuttal of criticism, it takes the same amount of effort, and will be rewarded by less unreasonable criticism from reasonable complainers.
EDIT: for removal of undefined participles.
08/07/2010 (11:01 am)
Just to be sure I was not making a big deal about nothing, on Friday I asked my lawyer for an estimation on how long writing a EULA such as the Torque EULA would take him. He seems to believe he could complete the task it in under 6 hours, pointing out the fact that EULA authorship is not his expertise. Of course TorquePowered have more Corporate um.. goons that would wish to proofread the EULA before approving it, but realistically that should take less then 4 hours. So I could give 2 or 4 days as a reasonable amount of time for this awaited EULA draft, if TorquePowered were as hasty as the EULA is critical.In consideration of stated evidence, I dont believe I am anyplace NEAR crossing a line with my complaints, in fact I think there is growing evidence that TorquePowered is crossing a line expecting us to believe "Anything with legal takes time.", and that this past several weeks amount of time is perfectly reasonable for something as important as a EULA redraft, and only a DRAFT at that.
The continuation of casting the attitude that complainers are truly unreasonable in right to be complaining, is exceedingly immature as a TorquePowered defensive mechanism. Use some real details to support rebuttal of criticism, it takes the same amount of effort, and will be rewarded by less unreasonable criticism from reasonable complainers.
EDIT: for removal of undefined participles.
#107
I had looked at Torque 3D a few months ago, and at that time the license said:
<b>The runtime may be redistributed royalty free, as long as it is produced using a licensed installation of the Software. Copyright notices from Licensor may not be removed from the runtime.</b>
I read the new EULA and through this thread but may have missed something. I didn't see anyone mention the elephant in the room, which is that the new license doesn't actually give the licensee the right to distribute anything involving Torque 3D, except to someone else who has also purchased Torque.
The new EULA says:
<b>Subject to compliance with this EULA, the licenses granted hereunder are royalty-free.</b>
but fails to actually clearly grant any rights to redistribute the runtime.
I'm sure this is an oversight, but I would not recommend anyone purchase the product or use it for any project until that is fixed.
Did I miss something?
thank you,
KH
08/08/2010 (9:41 pm)
I had looked at Torque 3D a few months ago, and at that time the license said:
<b>The runtime may be redistributed royalty free, as long as it is produced using a licensed installation of the Software. Copyright notices from Licensor may not be removed from the runtime.</b>
I read the new EULA and through this thread but may have missed something. I didn't see anyone mention the elephant in the room, which is that the new license doesn't actually give the licensee the right to distribute anything involving Torque 3D, except to someone else who has also purchased Torque.
The new EULA says:
<b>Subject to compliance with this EULA, the licenses granted hereunder are royalty-free.</b>
but fails to actually clearly grant any rights to redistribute the runtime.
I'm sure this is an oversight, but I would not recommend anyone purchase the product or use it for any project until that is fixed.
Did I miss something?
thank you,
KH
#108
@Caylo - I agree with your time estimate. The issue is that we share our lawyer with the two other divisions.
08/09/2010 (3:01 pm)
@Kyoko - I agree with you, it needs to be more explicit. Our intention is to allow royalty free distribution as we always have.@Caylo - I agree with your time estimate. The issue is that we share our lawyer with the two other divisions.
#109
08/09/2010 (9:41 pm)
I am not sure how that helps clarify anything,my lawyer have other clients also, but have always been prompt and excuse free. Legal matters are not a subject where exercising patience should become necessary.
#110
[I edited out the rest of the original post. ]
08/09/2010 (10:11 pm)
Yeah this is getting a bit silly.[I edited out the rest of the original post. ]
#111
Existing TGEA licensees with releases pending but without products tied to the new license (never accepted, doesn't apply)...
Would IA-TorquePowered prefer / allow us to use the new logo or should we run the GG eightball as contracted?
Is the new logo art available, and from where?
08/09/2010 (10:57 pm)
Can I poke my head in for two quick question EULA wise?Existing TGEA licensees with releases pending but without products tied to the new license (never accepted, doesn't apply)...
Would IA-TorquePowered prefer / allow us to use the new logo or should we run the GG eightball as contracted?
Is the new logo art available, and from where?
#112
@Everyone - I wish I had the updated version in my inbox, but I don't. It's frustrating for me as well. We've escalated the issue, but the work we are doing for Gamescom is consuming my resources.
08/12/2010 (6:39 am)
@Kenneth - Yes, the art and guidelines are available http://www.torquepowered.com/company/logo-guidelines. We would prefer you use the new logo.@Everyone - I wish I had the updated version in my inbox, but I don't. It's frustrating for me as well. We've escalated the issue, but the work we are doing for Gamescom is consuming my resources.
#113
-under no circumstances shall you develop or distribute (whether for free or for compensation) any derivative work based upon the Software that either competes with the Software or is a standalone Non-game.
The project would have been a real time website viewer of my companies proprietary engineering technology that would have allowed education on fabrication to structural steel fabricators,
the "standalone Non-Game" verbiage the lawyers have issue with. as the project required engine modifications it is ambiguous as to whether or not the project falls under a "derivative work"
(b) a Non-game for any platform without entering into an addendum to this EULA
The company lawyers refuse to even consider this as even an option,
they say it either is or isn't permitted addendum's are more trouble
then they are worth and many times clauses such as this are added to
intentionally create ambiguity in a contract in which one party can take
advantage of another by offering an "addendum"
Now please keep in mind the above comments are not necessarily my words but summaries of what was told to me of why i couldn't finish the project and potentially sell the product to the company.
I have perceived that the intent for this clause above was due to the large number of possible uses that a non project could be and instant action would prefer to define a EULA based on the project and its uses, but in this case because it is a large company purchasing a non game project from me and the EULA associated with the SDK a definition of at least 90% of the types of non game projects which have been permitted needs to be included unless TP really does feel that non game projects should not be developed with this software.
Based on previous blog posts it seemed as if Torque Powered was all for independent non game projects, but based on this EULA it is quite the contrary. I look forward to a draft addressing these issues so that i can continue my project
08/13/2010 (1:08 am)
So i had a Non Game project i was prototyping for the company i work for and they have shut it down because of the EULA, and I have been notified in no uncertain terms that the project should not be continued which is frustrating to no end as i have invested well over 100 hours into putting this together, so a update to the EULA would be appreciated...sooner then later preferably this is a pretty big deal for me. The sections they have taken issue with are these as follows-under no circumstances shall you develop or distribute (whether for free or for compensation) any derivative work based upon the Software that either competes with the Software or is a standalone Non-game.
The project would have been a real time website viewer of my companies proprietary engineering technology that would have allowed education on fabrication to structural steel fabricators,
the "standalone Non-Game" verbiage the lawyers have issue with. as the project required engine modifications it is ambiguous as to whether or not the project falls under a "derivative work"
(b) a Non-game for any platform without entering into an addendum to this EULA
The company lawyers refuse to even consider this as even an option,
they say it either is or isn't permitted addendum's are more trouble
then they are worth and many times clauses such as this are added to
intentionally create ambiguity in a contract in which one party can take
advantage of another by offering an "addendum"
Now please keep in mind the above comments are not necessarily my words but summaries of what was told to me of why i couldn't finish the project and potentially sell the product to the company.
I have perceived that the intent for this clause above was due to the large number of possible uses that a non project could be and instant action would prefer to define a EULA based on the project and its uses, but in this case because it is a large company purchasing a non game project from me and the EULA associated with the SDK a definition of at least 90% of the types of non game projects which have been permitted needs to be included unless TP really does feel that non game projects should not be developed with this software.
Based on previous blog posts it seemed as if Torque Powered was all for independent non game projects, but based on this EULA it is quite the contrary. I look forward to a draft addressing these issues so that i can continue my project
#114
08/13/2010 (2:09 am)
@Ken - E-mail us at licensing@torquepowered.com. As we stated all along, it's very easy for us to write a waiver.
#115
Don't agree to the new EULA then. Keep the original EULA close and wait what happens next.
08/13/2010 (3:25 am)
@KenDon't agree to the new EULA then. Keep the original EULA close and wait what happens next.
#116
08/15/2010 (7:20 pm)
@Ken - We haven't recieved you e-mail yet. Please contact us, we don't want anyone to be in the situation you are in and I think it would be very easy for us to resolve this for you.
#117
I hope your efforts are repaid in full by a new bunch of TorquePowered community loyalty. The only thing I am TorquePowered confident in is that TorquePowered suffer a real bad case of priority myopia.
You go Gamescom, that will make everything TorquePowered 'better'.
08/16/2010 (10:27 am)
UGH! Get another lawyer... And stop stealing grade school students excuses for not completing assignments...Quote:@Everyone - I wish I had the updated version in my inbox, but I don't. It's frustrating for me as well. We've escalated the issue, but the work we are doing for Gamescom is consuming my resources.
I hope your efforts are repaid in full by a new bunch of TorquePowered community loyalty. The only thing I am TorquePowered confident in is that TorquePowered suffer a real bad case of priority myopia.
You go Gamescom, that will make everything TorquePowered 'better'.
#119
I guess I am to stupid to see the causality linking the two subjects.
Comment removed by moderator - That was uncalled for.
08/16/2010 (4:20 pm)
Um, so ahh... How do that effect the EULA redraft update?I guess I am to stupid to see the causality linking the two subjects.
Comment removed by moderator - That was uncalled for.
#120
08/16/2010 (4:31 pm)
It affects it because we have finite resources and those resources are being used to capacity elsewhere currently. 
Torque Owner TheGasMan
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