Torque EULA Discussion

#61 The Torque game engines, out of all the engines I have worked with Torque still is the easiest to learn and work with after achieving the learning curve. Once you know the mechanics of the scripting language, the procedures for art content importing and finding ones way around the C'code, the rest of the work is purely upto project design and creative thinking. With many other engines I have used every stage of development requires specialization of knowledge, and constant references to the documentation. I would never wish to be a programmer,scripter and do all the art content with the Unreal engine, its possible but it requires much dedicated study and work.

TorquePowered offer the only game engines that are nearly 100% cross compatible, going from what i can learn about the other Torque game engines from the forums. It seems I can take my T3D knowledge and quickly grow to learn iTorque 2D and Torque X. This ability to use one game design concept built on T3D, then with minor amounts of refactoring have iDevices and XNA deployment using much of the same artwork and script programing, is the most powerful bragging right TorquePowered have.

The TorquePowered online forum community is the most lively bunch of colorful yet helpful and supporting bunch of developers I have ever seen gathered in one location and getting along, while not only sharing knowledge of game development but sharing opinions, ideas and thoughts that far exceed the scope of game development. There are very few arguments within the TorquePowered online forum community that turn nasty and end up hurting peoples feeling, and the time when this do seem to happen TorquePowered community members apologize and act mature about it. I have only once seen an example here of someone holding a grudge, but I have seen many examples where heartfelt points of argument turned into apologies and thoughtful debate. Few things deserves more respect then this community of strangers working individually yet able to get along so fluently. This alone is a fascinating phenomena, and TorquePowered is the only reason it exists.

As far as TorquePowered it self, it have not always been prompt and perfectly honest about community expectations, and such past wounds are slow to heal and forget. But over the last 7+ months TorquePowered have proven itself to be able and willing to do better. TorquePowered is a rare example of a developer of a tool who actually listen to its community complains and objections, suggestions and arguments, then take action to rectify such perceived shortcomings. I do not believe many other game engine providers would actually re-examine a EULA in light of external criticism from its users. Or merge two profitable game engines into one as in the case of TorqueX 2D and 3D, for the only reason to accelerate overall product updates and better fulfill community expectations. Not to mention, make right on promises about documentation even if it means extra long stressful work hours.

GarageGames long ago had a motto at the top of the webpage, "Changing the way games are made and played.". They were the first to offer an extremely versatile 3D game engine for an outrageous low price. Not bleeding edge technology for the time, but a great little flexible 3D game engine none the less. Torque Game Engine sparked this now widespread Indie Game market. Back in Torque Game Engine early days the concept of Indie Game Developers and Small budget Game Studios was downright laughable, and the thought of being able to play a game that had mass market appeal and was not developed by a BIG name studio was inconceivable. GarageGames DID changing the way games are made and played.

Now we have TorquePowered, offering even better game engines capable of reaching even more game playing platforms, yet still with a licence cost value aimed at the Indie Game Developers and Small Game Studios. It is often easy to lose sight of everything TorquePowered actually is. More then just the most licensed engine middleware in the game industry, but a concept and a community that supports and nurtures that very personal desire deep inside every single one of us who ever wished to develop our own great computer game idea.

All things considered, TorquePowered means the ability for the little guy to achieve dreams that compete with the big names and budgets of 'PRO' game developers. And by removing misconceptions of how TorquePowered should deliver products and when, or what TorquePowered should be doing with its product line, it is once more very easy to see that TorquePowered is actually doing real great work, just for the little guy with a big game dream.

#62 Perfectly said, Caylo. You illustrate my point.

[btw, when I started reading that post I thought you were gonna go on a classic rant, but NOOOOOoooo, you did it flip mode -- always surprising]

#63 This is my apology for neglecting to think critically considering the full picture, and allowing my own personal impatience to add weigh to arrogant and thoughtless opinions carelessly directed at TorquePowered, by proxy the hard working developers behind the TorquePowered scenes and a few of the associates (in other thread, who were -now that i review the conversation, trying to tell me something I was not able to comprehend at that time). I admit to the weakness of the human condition of being a perfect model of imperfections.

I am still going to debate against logical fallacy if they arise, but promise to be much more thoughtful about what/how i am saying in the future.

#64 Thanks Caylo...we won't let that post go to our head. Now back to work!

#65 classic rant? My rants are all fresh new originals! I dont often 'rant', i challenge reason and always expect to be proven wrong. In this case I was angry at something I care about, because of concepts I myself had the power to change. In my world THINGS should never be allowed power to control emotions.


Once I let everything feed my ego and goto my head, I ended up tying helium balloons around my neck to help hold my ever expanding head aloft... Did not turn out so well, but it cured me of my ego inflations. Wisdom with age and ugliness of truth alight.

@Jameson: Im still able to be online, and will be active in the community. Just not as quick on the hot topic discussions.

#66 While we may differ a bit on whether you 'rant', it is agreed they are all 'Caylo originals'. The 'classic' referred to your specific style, you definitely have your own voice ;)

Like I said, at times I grind my teeth, but there are just as many times I pump my fist topped with a 'Damn Right' at a point you make. Keep it up.

I do want to point out, also, that Eric has been amazingly even-handed and professional concerning EVERY issue he has addressed with this (at times infuriatingly immature) community. There is no way I could do it like you Eric, way too much irish in my blood. You have a knack for the politics involved, that is for sure, and a vital part of your job. I'm glad you're the one doing it.

#67 Poll:
Do you think TP is being tactical by waiting for 1.1B2 release which would force any '1.1B2 downloaders' into the new EULA ?(by new I mean; the July version)

(..it simply seems a bit silly to take this long to answer our concerns.)

#68 Well torque licensing has not got back to me on the cost of removing watermarks and pitching torque in press yet.

It also seems kind of silly they vary the price based on how good your game is, we are getting punished the harder we work!

#69 Requiring our logo on your splash screen is a majorly important marketing resource for us.

On the right game it can easily be more valuable than all of the rest of the money we've ever put into marketing combined. For example, imagine if the Halo franchise had been built on Torque. That would have established a huge level of interest in the Torque game engines and been extremely valuable to us.

Ideally, we would like to never allow people to remove our logo. However, we do understand that there are valid reasons to do so and are willing to work with you. However, it does have to be on a case-by-case basis.

Generally though, the price to remove our logo starts around $5000 and moves upward from there.

#70 No tactics Eb. We share our lawyer with the other two divisions. We submitted our changes to him last Thursday after our meeting based on the feedback from this thread. The updated EULA will go up as a draft here before we push to installers. So 1.1 b2 will be out before the updated EULA.

#71 @Eric
..it was more of a general populace focused poll as so you guys could gauge such opinion for this waiting period. Granted, it was slanted in a direction but with good(in my POV) cause;

I am currently working on a non-game project under the 1.0.1/1.1B1 EULA and I would like to begin work on a game project when 1.1 final is released (if it's as stable as I hope it is).

I am waiting to hear whether or not the EULA can extend power to previous versions of the engine...example:
- I have plans for a few smallish non-games with 1.0.1, yet I have plans waiting for 1.1 or 1.2, to commence after assessing the engine features.

- The question is: once I accept the new EULA, will I no longer be able to use T3D 1.0.1 for those smallish non-games in concurrent development with 1.2 T3D games ?
Overview of the scenario:(I find it silly that TP would hinder me from doing such things, because these projects have the potential to bring T3D more exposure.[But then again, I have literally seen a man stab himself in the foot...so nothing would surprise me.])

If you don't want to answer here, please toss me an email.
..or if something is unclear, please ask me to elaborate.

#72 "I am waiting to hear whether or not the EULA can extend power to previous versions of the engine"

The EULA you abide by is only the EULA you agree to. So it's really about what you agreed to last (be it at purchase or install ).

I think the updated EULA will address your concerns regarding non-games. The intention was not to cause strife for the indie developer.

Lastly, as a reminder, when we do require a non-game waiver, it really means that there isn't a standard price...we aren't forbidding it or looking to make it difficult for people who are trying to bootstrap their success.

Gotta run...meeting!

#73 Can I not buy a second license and use my initial license for 1.01 non-game development and then the new license for 1.1 dev'd games, concurrently ?

..it would be odd that the world can be mixed with people having different licensing, yet 1 person/studio/company can't hold multiple licenses if bought for their respective uses.

I think that this should be thought through on your end.

//edit: I hope the meeting goes well.

#74 Just to chip in on the EULA side, I'm another that use several computers I'm just a hobby developer doing stuff in my spare time and use mainly 2 laptops (15.5" & 17") and a desktop depending how mobile I am and where I'm gonna be doing me tinkering/hacking errr game development.

Then I have a few desktops with different operating systems on (XP, Vista & Win 7) that I test stuff on to see how it runs with different cards/etc -- not a big deal as I don't usually install the SDK on them unless theres something I need to debug.

But I'm getting a Mac very soon so a lil concerned over the 2 personal computers clause now introduced with the EULA as even if I can get it down to a desktop, laptop and mac I'm still gonna be in breach of the EULA.

Can understand TP's point of view of a company installing on 50 computers and claiming 1 developer but the nature of PC development means testing things on a range of machines, cards and operating systems (bloody thing).

May also want to enquire about VMWare as that always muddies the water when discussing licenses on a per machine basis

#75 @Eb - At the end of the day, I think there are many permutations of challenges from language. That's why we have courts to interpret language. No one wins we when use the court system in our case, but the court of public opinion is essential for us to exist as a business. To that, we will strive to work with anyone who has concerns about whether or not they are compliant. It's very easy for us to give you permission in cases where someone's use creates a gray area. We aren't trying to make life hard, we just need to have some protection from those who want to abuse the license and look for loopholes.

@Andy - The restriction is on development not runtimes. QA your runtimes on 1000 machines...there is no problem.

#76 RE: QA your runtimes on 1000 machines...there is no problem.

Solves one for me and the Torque MMO Kit people. TY!

#77

Quote:The restriction is on development not runtimes. QA your runtimes on 1000 machines...there is no problem.

It is truth that I do not use my profusion of destop computers and army of laptops to compile the C'code, but I do enjoy the freedom of using T3D tools and editors whenever I find the spare time and a computer (of my own personal control) is available. I personally think the wording of the EULA in this regard should be about computers what one have full control over, not access usage by more then just the SDK licensee. I would never dream of installing an SDK on a computer what others, then singularly me, have access to.

Quote:It's very easy for us to give you permission in cases where someone's use creates a gray area.

It convolute the purpose of the EULA to start making individual exceptions to the rules. The "grey area" will soon be every aspect of the EULA. I do understand you are talking about the fact it is impossible to cover every contingency, but careful wording will cover nearly every possibility, without being ambiguous with definitions.

Quote:That's why we have courts to interpret language.

A judge will choose to pick the 'spirit' or the 'word' implications 'of the law'. What makes a EULA complex is the fact it is also a contract, so it must be established what both parties 'thought' they were agreeing to. Any party(of the contract) who have the resources to fight a poorly worded contract will win; this is a perfect case of money buying the legal system.

Quote:We aren't trying to make life hard, we just need to have some protection from those who want to abuse the license and look for loopholes.

This is best exercised by clearly defining what the EULA say in the first place, dont leave room for 'loopholes' by the user or designer. Previously this was not a real problem with the cheaper Torque engines(~$150), but with a price over $500, the EULA should be easy(at lest clear) for a 5'th grade student to understand.

Other types of product EULA do not apply because they are stating in 'spirit' "dont rip us off", then list the ways one can not abuse the product what would be 'ripping them off', no matter how flowery the language is. And this is fine when the product have very small special purposes, such as PhotoShop, 3D Max.

EDIT: because im saying alot and wish to be well understood about what i am saying.

#78 In my understanding of the language of the part of the 1.9 the software is not finish and you talk to change the Eula about this part, this is not loopholes or gray area here!

Why this change?

The 1.9

1.9. "Software" includes the source code and executable code provided to You in connection with Your purchase and all associated documentation (if any). The Software also includes any update to the Software that corrects bugs or provides minor feature enhancements. The Software does not include next generation versions of the Software or versions of the Software that include major feature enhancements

#79 I plan to do this:
- create a second company(company2)
- buy a T3D license to 1.1final+, for company2
- use (up to version) 1.1B1 for non-games through company1
- use 1.1+ for games through company2

Actually with section 1.9, it appears that I could do this without the need for a second company since the EULAs are attached to purchases then the entity-use.

Thoughts ?

// edit in for the sake of illustrating my position on this:
[I'd rather spend an extra $1k, in the above scenario, to keep my non-game projects that are possible with the 1.0.1 sdk, private. ..you can call me crazy that I think my IPs are good enough to keep private. :P ]

#80

Quote:
I'd rather spend an extra $1k, in the above scenario, to keep my non-game projects that are possible with the 1.0.1 sdk, private. ..you can call me crazy that I think my IPs are good enough to keep private.

Actually, that's not crazy at all eb - I sort of feel the same :D