Torque EULA Discussion

#41 This post is for general interest about EU and Statutory Rights that cannot be broken.

Please have a look to Adobe license, Section 16.

www.adobe.com/products/eulas/pdfs/gen_wwcombined_20091001_1604.pdf

Without those provisions when selling in the EU our law applies in full. Here you can see that Adobe tries to limit in a procedural way the right to decompile the software (funny way!) and you can see also repeating the phrase "This agreement will not prejudice the statutory rights of any party, including those dealing as consumers."

There is no way in Europe to waive a Trial by Jury, that's part of the Statutory Rights, and in the same way there is no way around the Consumer Protection Act, that is a Statutory Right as well (all EU countries have similar Acts regulated by the EU Directives).

Any product sold in the EU is subject to the EU law aimed to protect the Consumers and the People's Statutory Rights.

There is no way around this.

#42 We are working on updates to the language based on the feedback you are giving. I think the most efficient way for us to move forward with your concerns is to post it here as a draft first. Unfortunatly, that means we won't be able to have something for you until after our lawyer returns from vacation. If this is causing a release issue for your software, please don't hesitate to contact us.

Please keep in mind that we provide our engines with source code. Maybe there's a flaw in my thinking, but from my perspective I think that broad market full source licesning is more challenging than non-source licensing ( from a EULA perspective ). I'd be interested in your thoughts.

#43

Quote:InstantAction hereby grants You a limited license to make and use a correction, improvement, or minor modification (such as a genre kit) to the Software (a "Permitted Derivative Work")

Quote:You shall not: (a) create any derivative works of the Software including but not limited to translations, localizations, starter kits, technology add-ons, or game-making software;

I'm a little confused about the difference between a genre kit and a starter kit.

#44 @Eric:
Issue about T3D. I've just found out that using the binary version of T3D I'm unable to grant a proper interoperability between the web browsers and the game because the plugin configuration looks for the source code. Note that this falls into that nasty EU regulation allowing me to derive the source code to grant a proper interoperability. We European are such a pain in the neck :)

#45 I also am curious about 2 parts.

1. I also have more then 2 computers I use for development depending on where I am(work, home, school, parent's business). Now I have to carry around my whole computer from place to place. They are not all located in a local vicinity either. I really think this needs to be relooked at because many people(Indie) who develop games do it from many different places since we don't all work at a game development company with its own office.

2. Also a reason I bought it was for the MMOKit and I have the same question as Leathel. Can we have it added to the EULA that installations on servers(like for zones) do not count as installations?

#46 Just for technical clarification as others might not be familiar with Torque MMO Kit architecture (as released by Prairie Games under license from GarageGames.com, now InstantAction).

We use TGE/A or T3D source to create a PYD library which is part of our Python application (both server and client side). However, we don't use TGE/A or T3D source as part of our server environment.

I believe the concern is that it would be to the benefit of those using the kit (we are all TGE/A and/or T3D licensees*) to have clarification that the Single Computer requirement refers only to SOURCE and not to our server applications using the compiled binary.

Our use of multiple machines in a cluster environment is strictly to provide servers to the game buyers. They are not programmers seats in any fashion.

* this is a strict requirement of the Kit's license.

#47 I run torque3d on several zone servers too, sometimes in debug mode with source to catch crashes.

#48 Pardon the bump.

Is there any sort of timetable on a formal statement regarding EULA application?

Also, still no luck having the errant product orders removed from my account. Still showing seats for T3D and T2D, and a studio name. Is there something I could do to be helpful?

Neither are crisis, just touching base.

#49 @Kenneth - We will be posting a draft of an updated EULA based on the feedback that we recieved as soon as we meet with legal. Along with the updated EULA, we will also be posting a FAQ along with that draft that we will us to help new users interpret the EULA.

#50 Much appreciated, TY.

#51 Also can we get the pricing to flat out remove branding from the engine including mention of torque from press releases and such.

#52 @Chris - Send an email to licensing@torquepowered.com and they should get back to you shortly.

#53

Quote:We will be posting a draft of an updated EULA based on the feedback that we recieved as soon as we meet with legal.

Is this meet with legal something that is going to take place soon, as in THIS or NEXT week? Perhaps "legal" is working on the new EULA right now, writing it down at the TorquePowered speed of one word a day? Or is "legal" still in the Bahamas sucking down Piña Coladas?

I ask because im trying to get my stuff together in preparation of moving to my winter location and job. It is nice to be able to tie up all the loose ends before being gone for months, with spotty internet connection.

#54 @Caylo - I think your comment is out of line. I am more than willing to work with you, but from my perspective, that post is a bit more abusive than it should be if we are to work together towards the same goals.

We are meeting with legal tomorrow.

#55 EDIT: OFF TOPIC Skip to POST#67 to continue Torque EULA Discussion



Ah, ok. Your right, sorry. I tend to get careless with wording, when pushed between a stubborn object and an unchangeable force. I guess TorquePowered speed is yet to be determined.

It is just I have been off work for 5 months, and not ONE accomplishment from the TorquePowered sector of my affairs. Torque 3D 1.0.1 and Torque 3D 1.1 - Beta 1 both have bugs what keep me from the final push on my project. Not to mention the very little T3D advancement over the many months that i was away last year. And now im preparing to leave (decent)internet civilization behind for another 4 to 9 months and still do not have anything to show for my T3D involvement, less EULA problem concerns (and some real great new T3D docs). Im very confident T3D and EULA matters are coming along very well and as fast as TorquePowered can, but look at how much time has already passed.

I may be out of line, but T3D is becoming an out of line fiasco, adding much unwanted stress to my TorquePowered endeavorers, I would never have step into this T3D hive except for all the wonderful blogs promising that T3D would not be another TSE/TGEA drama, so many beautiful words painting imagery of better prompt communication and quick product updates and bug fixing. TorquePowered can take all the time they want, but im running low on time, and did not expect to be paying for a product that would practice my patients.

#56 @Caylo - I understand.

If you don't mind me asking, what bugs are keeping you from your final push? Might fix them myself if they aren't going out in the release.

Yes, a lot of time has passed but a lot more has actually has occurred -it just isn't always visible. The challenge is that a lot of the work we've done involves investments we've made to improve long term aspects of our business. We moved to Vegas for better recruiting, we re-org’d the group so that each product line has a single accountable person. Those project managers have built schedules that we are now working on and updating. That process has created a lot of serialized work that requires us to take a bit of a step back to move two steps forward. It's painful on both sides but the competition is fierce and we need to be able to react accordingly.

The results of that work is only starting to pay us back now. Our associate forum has more activity than it has in three years. We already have more posts this year than we had the last two years combined. TorqueX and iTorque 2D users have said that the QA process we are using has slowed things down a bit, but they feel it's been worth the wait. We submitted 6 builds to QA in the past 6 weeks.

There's still a lot of room for process improvement on our side, but things have been in reasonably in place for a couple of months and we are already working iterative improvement rather than pre-production ( to put it in game terms ).

All I can say is thanks for your patience; it’s not expected, but it is appreciated.

#57 Most every bug that is in my way have been reported and 'marked' by QA, so I expect the next T3D to be golden ripe and juicy for my project. But I will not be able to download it 2 weeks from now, as my internet connection will not allow more then 10 megs a day from where I will be located for the next few months.

My panic is not fully related to TorquePowered expectations, so I am out of line for being unnecessarily rude.

#58 @Caylo - this is a good time for me to deliver on the promise of setting expectations. Just because a bug is marked doesn't mean it's fixed. It's a sign to our community that we recognized the bug and inserted it into our bug tracking system. From there, we reproduce it, expand on the description for our devs, and assign it to the product manager. After it's fixed, the QA team tracks it for regression purposes.

In fact, we recently noticed that we were missing a lot of bugs in the forums so we have a plan to get to them into our system much faster. We would like to have posted bug marked and in our QA system within 48 hours.

#59 Ohhhhhh..... Somehow I was confident with my belief that as the bugs were marked, they would be soon fixed and fresh for the next upcoming T3D build.

Anyhow, at least i can look forward to marking "EULA change?" off my list for this years Torque accomplishments? Or is there a missing disclaimer I am failing to comprehend with that also?

EDIT: Dont bother a reply, im just going to log out now and spend some time reevaluating what TorquePowered truly means to me.

#60 Even bugs that are added according to the format suggested on the forums (for easy searching) and bumped months later to get them seen again are not logged (or at least not noted on the forum posts). While I see the benefit of using forums for bug tracking, it has obvious flaws that make using it for bug tracking perilous, not to mention the severe difficulty it presents to your clients that NEED a tool to schedule development around t3d dev. I really hope this is addressed some day (not right now, I guarantee you have plenty of other higher priority stuff to do ;) .

@Caylo:
While I spend my fair share of time grinding my teeth at the provocative nature of your posting style, your voice is very valuable on this forum. You have been a great speaker for the silent majority here, and are always quick to admit if you're speaking out of line. Just saying I appreciate it, will miss your voice and hope to see you back when you return to civilization!