Next T3D 1.1 release?
by Edward Smith · in Torque 3D Professional · 05/12/2010 (4:17 pm) · 104 replies
Are there any updates as to the eta on the next release?
About the author
Currently working on a WW2 FPS game.
#62
//-----
I'd continue on with a long reply to this thread but it's clear that nothing is going to change T3D's feature-set and that T3D is a failure when compared to what it was blogged to be. That is my point & let me expand on that..
-> If you don't agree with me on that harsh point, then send out a mass email offering a refund.
**If GG is so confident that T3D is as "awesome-tastic" as we were lead to believe, then you should have nothing to worry about, right ?**
Let the replies of the people speak the truth.
(..& don't worry about seriously giving refunds, ..you can say it wasn't a "promised refund".)
//edit: I've spoken my points, I won't post in this thread anymore. ;)
05/28/2010 (2:20 pm)
rofl @ "It also makes me feel more and more that GarageGames is pooping on my head and trying to call it a helmet."//-----
I'd continue on with a long reply to this thread but it's clear that nothing is going to change T3D's feature-set and that T3D is a failure when compared to what it was blogged to be. That is my point & let me expand on that..
-> If you don't agree with me on that harsh point, then send out a mass email offering a refund.
**If GG is so confident that T3D is as "awesome-tastic" as we were lead to believe, then you should have nothing to worry about, right ?**
Let the replies of the people speak the truth.
(..& don't worry about seriously giving refunds, ..you can say it wasn't a "promised refund".)
//edit: I've spoken my points, I won't post in this thread anymore. ;)
#63
05/28/2010 (4:45 pm)
@Caylo - Good question regarding speed of bug fixes. I requires a detailed response. I will work on it over the weekend. 
#64
It would help immensely to have a list that can be used to decide whether to wait or do workarounds on your own. I have had no end of frustration having to research current bugs when I come accross them. If there was a 'final' list I would be able to make realistic decisions about what to tackle first.
Sorry if I make no sense, just tossing out my 2 cents worth
05/28/2010 (6:16 pm)
I know I'm not exactly experienced in these matters but I did have a thought on something somewhat useful to me: How about releasing a list of bugs and features for the current dev cycle. The key would be locking the list and stating to the community exactly what you have on the plate as far as bugs and features for the next release.It would help immensely to have a list that can be used to decide whether to wait or do workarounds on your own. I have had no end of frustration having to research current bugs when I come accross them. If there was a 'final' list I would be able to make realistic decisions about what to tackle first.
Sorry if I make no sense, just tossing out my 2 cents worth
#65
Instead we have to start threads to find the status out. This is a major issue, communicate what your working on, and the status of those items if and when they change. Then everyone knows and understands.
This will help to be in touch with your customers, us. And will help us from thinking and just waiting for feature x to happen. Which won't, because its been canceled but we have no way of knowing about this.
Just saying some features may not happen, doesn't quite cut it when it comes to communication.
Users have always wanted MORE communication. When has communication been bad? When there isn't enough.
Keep us in the light. You don't have to tell us about everything, just what the community has been told about already, have a thread, update the list of bugs and features and give their status and planned or estimated release timing. If something is pushed back, update it. Simple no?
We're all evolved in development, we understand this. And most of us do this at our day jobs. What doesn't work is when we don't know what is happening with x and y. And just left to wonder, we get a new release and x and y isn't done. It's like "oh ok, when then...? maybe if I knew I would have done it by now". In the dark doesn't help anyone, it doesn't inform us. Information is power, and IA holds all the power and doesn't share it.
On a note, I personally think TGE was better. TGEA and now T3D just don't seem to be moving on like TGE did and I've decided to go to UDK at least for now so I can work on my project and a more stable and feature complete solution. And if it doesn't work out, nothing is lost as I'm not making the ground I should be with the current T3D releases.
05/28/2010 (6:55 pm)
I think the problem with regards to features being worked on been mentioned in the development blogs and the like. Is that we are never told, it won't come with T3D, it has been pushed back etc.Instead we have to start threads to find the status out. This is a major issue, communicate what your working on, and the status of those items if and when they change. Then everyone knows and understands.
This will help to be in touch with your customers, us. And will help us from thinking and just waiting for feature x to happen. Which won't, because its been canceled but we have no way of knowing about this.
Just saying some features may not happen, doesn't quite cut it when it comes to communication.
Users have always wanted MORE communication. When has communication been bad? When there isn't enough.
Keep us in the light. You don't have to tell us about everything, just what the community has been told about already, have a thread, update the list of bugs and features and give their status and planned or estimated release timing. If something is pushed back, update it. Simple no?
We're all evolved in development, we understand this. And most of us do this at our day jobs. What doesn't work is when we don't know what is happening with x and y. And just left to wonder, we get a new release and x and y isn't done. It's like "oh ok, when then...? maybe if I knew I would have done it by now". In the dark doesn't help anyone, it doesn't inform us. Information is power, and IA holds all the power and doesn't share it.
On a note, I personally think TGE was better. TGEA and now T3D just don't seem to be moving on like TGE did and I've decided to go to UDK at least for now so I can work on my project and a more stable and feature complete solution. And if it doesn't work out, nothing is lost as I'm not making the ground I should be with the current T3D releases.
#66
I think the problem now is Unity has Torque backed up against the wall. I think Torque management feels like they have to support all platforms now that Unity is dominating the Indie scene. My advice: Go back to the basics. Release a solid, optimized, feature rich, and STABLE engine and you will win over a lot of programmers. Having the source code is valuable and Unity can't compete with that.
If GG feels like they can't afford to piss off some customers and drop support for some of the products they have (read TGB, TX, iTGE, etc.), dedicate a team of 2-3 people to work on each full time and have 15-20 full time developers on Torque3D.
Please prove me wrong that the $1000 I spent on the utter failure that is T3d was not in vain. I would absolutely kill for a refund.
05/28/2010 (11:10 pm)
I felt cheated when I bought TGEA and I feel cheated after buying T3D. The development blogs were very misleading. Most of them looked highly polished and in a usable state. I know that no one will admit this, but it seems clear to me that once T2D came out things slowly starting going downhill. We then saw an increase of different flavors of Torque. The problem with this is, where you once had 20-30 people supporting one engine, you now have 20-30 people supporting 4-6 engine (depending on what you want to count). This is a horrible business decision. How many different engines are Epic, Valve, Crytek, and id supporting? I think the problem now is Unity has Torque backed up against the wall. I think Torque management feels like they have to support all platforms now that Unity is dominating the Indie scene. My advice: Go back to the basics. Release a solid, optimized, feature rich, and STABLE engine and you will win over a lot of programmers. Having the source code is valuable and Unity can't compete with that.
If GG feels like they can't afford to piss off some customers and drop support for some of the products they have (read TGB, TX, iTGE, etc.), dedicate a team of 2-3 people to work on each full time and have 15-20 full time developers on Torque3D.
Please prove me wrong that the $1000 I spent on the utter failure that is T3d was not in vain. I would absolutely kill for a refund.
#67
So Jon D, wanna go on a road trip? I have allot of 'refunds' to collect. (Sounds like an idea for a computer game, T2D would be perfect for it!)
Edwards comment about UDK should be the type of subject that motivates GG onto a better path of action. There are a growing number of very decent FREE(depending on usage) game engines, and Torques immediate competition is growing better much faster then Torque products are being half-patched together.
It will soon be that GG is hurting in sales because the "I wanna make a game" complete novice market niche is able to download for free from a variety of easy to use top notch "MOD" game engines. Same for the "after work" hobbyist. TGE for $150 was a powerful purchasing deal for this market area because 'when they were ready' they could delve deeper into the code of the engine.
Small start-up game studios, the Education market and the "experimental game programmer" are all that are left for Torque. And GG seem to be doing a great job at systematically alienating them.
I felt cheated with TGEA also, it sounded so great in the blogs and public forums. It was not until TGEA1.8.2 that TGEA was actually a stable/usable engine but still busted in so many small ways, very few of the old TGE functions were in working order and porting over was a real bitch.
TGEA birth date.
TGEA finally sorta working.
How long did that take now? To finally get a mostly stable/bug fixed TGEA. I know of projects that died while waiting for TGEA to grow up and act right.
T3D is about one year old now, and it is in much better shape then TGEA at this age. I dont feel T3D cheated yet but I am open to the possibility that soon I may.
05/29/2010 (1:48 am)
"I would absolutely kill for a refund."So Jon D, wanna go on a road trip? I have allot of 'refunds' to collect. (Sounds like an idea for a computer game, T2D would be perfect for it!)
Edwards comment about UDK should be the type of subject that motivates GG onto a better path of action. There are a growing number of very decent FREE(depending on usage) game engines, and Torques immediate competition is growing better much faster then Torque products are being half-patched together.
It will soon be that GG is hurting in sales because the "I wanna make a game" complete novice market niche is able to download for free from a variety of easy to use top notch "MOD" game engines. Same for the "after work" hobbyist. TGE for $150 was a powerful purchasing deal for this market area because 'when they were ready' they could delve deeper into the code of the engine.
Small start-up game studios, the Education market and the "experimental game programmer" are all that are left for Torque. And GG seem to be doing a great job at systematically alienating them.
I felt cheated with TGEA also, it sounded so great in the blogs and public forums. It was not until TGEA1.8.2 that TGEA was actually a stable/usable engine but still busted in so many small ways, very few of the old TGE functions were in working order and porting over was a real bitch.
TGEA birth date.
TGEA finally sorta working.
How long did that take now? To finally get a mostly stable/bug fixed TGEA. I know of projects that died while waiting for TGEA to grow up and act right.
T3D is about one year old now, and it is in much better shape then TGEA at this age. I dont feel T3D cheated yet but I am open to the possibility that soon I may.
#68
Over the course of the project we even backported it to TGE but the problems we had with the performance with the MK in the back (and visuals for FPS type games unhappily matter a hell a lot more than for anything else) we in the end got that much in team fights over the course and the technology that it died down at the very moment our lead designers went lost.
T3D is already in a much more usable state, but the "will backfire ceavats" are there and plagueing and I seriously hope that GG will put the appropriate effort on that end instead of following TGEAs path of focusing of "cool hypi PR features" while being close to useless for teams that invested in a middleware to use it for their project, not invested in a middleware [∫]to break it appart and fix / work around for their purpose[/b] (the source docs are still not even remotely close for this kind of work style in my humble opinion. Basic topics like hooking up own shaders that require lengthy threads here proof that and thats not even core source documentation but basic mechanism documentation for the render path)
If we were to start Forbidden Magic today, I'm sorry to say, but I would definitely go with UDK, not Torque, due to the current state of stability, bugs and documentations. Also its impossible to get a team of non-geeks to throw in a $1000 bucks or $250 per seat for the tech. TGEA in its state worked (potentially much) better because its licensing didn't rip the clothes of artists that temporally joined a hobbiest team.
Benefit of the $1000 is that we can expect much more solid and faster paced development as every single user on a team pays his share to drive that opposed to the $295 / $600 for teams with 1-2 source devs on TGEA. The QA efforts potentially already benefited from it (assuming the QA side isn't going to QA the games created as well, not just the technologies), I hope impact will, once 1.1 has happened, also come to T3D and drive it at an at least somewhere competitive pace (currently its the one with the longest timeframe between minors and with close to no bugfix release subminors at all although it would require 1-3 per minor realistically)
05/29/2010 (6:49 am)
Our project (Forbidden Magic, which would have fitted TGEA kind of perfectly) was among the projects that died due to TGEA being unusable in 1.0.x.Over the course of the project we even backported it to TGE but the problems we had with the performance with the MK in the back (and visuals for FPS type games unhappily matter a hell a lot more than for anything else) we in the end got that much in team fights over the course and the technology that it died down at the very moment our lead designers went lost.
T3D is already in a much more usable state, but the "will backfire ceavats" are there and plagueing and I seriously hope that GG will put the appropriate effort on that end instead of following TGEAs path of focusing of "cool hypi PR features" while being close to useless for teams that invested in a middleware to use it for their project, not invested in a middleware [∫]to break it appart and fix / work around for their purpose[/b] (the source docs are still not even remotely close for this kind of work style in my humble opinion. Basic topics like hooking up own shaders that require lengthy threads here proof that and thats not even core source documentation but basic mechanism documentation for the render path)
If we were to start Forbidden Magic today, I'm sorry to say, but I would definitely go with UDK, not Torque, due to the current state of stability, bugs and documentations. Also its impossible to get a team of non-geeks to throw in a $1000 bucks or $250 per seat for the tech. TGEA in its state worked (potentially much) better because its licensing didn't rip the clothes of artists that temporally joined a hobbiest team.
Benefit of the $1000 is that we can expect much more solid and faster paced development as every single user on a team pays his share to drive that opposed to the $295 / $600 for teams with 1-2 source devs on TGEA. The QA efforts potentially already benefited from it (assuming the QA side isn't going to QA the games created as well, not just the technologies), I hope impact will, once 1.1 has happened, also come to T3D and drive it at an at least somewhere competitive pace (currently its the one with the longest timeframe between minors and with close to no bugfix release subminors at all although it would require 1-3 per minor realistically)
#69
We released Buccaneer using TGEA 18 months ago, it was a bit of a mammoth undertaking as we ended up porting it into about 3 or 4 different versions of TGE and TGEA etc. over a 3 year timeframe.. Yeah it cost us quite a bit of time and of course alot of money to do it, it was really frustrating, but it was a much better option than hiring half a dozen programmers to write an engine from scratch, was on another level from what they could have achieved anyhow, and it worked really well, we released it and it was really well recieved. Even now we're getting emails saying how great it looks and how people can't believe it was made by two artists with no previous coding experience etc... Without GGs, we'd never have been able to even think about it. These are the kind of dreams these guys are allowing the little guys like us to follow.
We've recently ported the game into T3D without a single change to the rendering code that T3D ships with, we've completely ditched all of our bespoke rendering code we added to TGEA, and it looks utterly and completely stunning, and I couldn't be more pleased with the results ( and the framerate !!) but I agree with the other guys here as this version of the game desperatly needs a finished, stable T3D1.1 to be released so that we can get on with the task of getting the game to a release status also....Currently we have a GPU lockup with Nvidea cards to do with water and particles etc. etc.
So, it's the same problem as before, here we are again, but we got there in the end last time, and we'll do it again. This is the problem with relying on somebody else to create our engine for us, an engine of the quality we couldn't possibly hope to create ourselves, we're completely at their mercy in regard to our publishing timeframes etc. and every month that goes by is another where no revenue is coming through the door, potential deals are put on hold or even lost forever etc. etc. in fact I'm having to work as an artist on a AAA title to keep the company moving forwards right now, but I know we'll get there, and with GGs also giving us little guys the potential to release on T360 too ( for me the very biggest reason that Unity isn't even worth looking at), for the sake of another few months of uncertainty it'll all be worth the wait again, and this financial hurt and frustration will be all forgotten as long as we,as independant companies can survive of course. I also agree however, it would be great to know roughly when this is all going to happen, June? July? 2010?
In short, T3D1.1 complete, beautiful, bug free, and easily portable to 360 is all we ask. 8)
COME ON ERIC AND ALL THE GGs BRETHREN !!! KEEP UP THE AMAZING WORK, YOU'VE STILL GOT US BEHIND YOU, I'LL PERSONALLY BUY YOU ALL A BEER AT GDC IF YOU MAKE IT HAPPEN SOON !!
05/29/2010 (7:16 am)
I'm going to throw my two penneth in here if that's cool. I've been watching this thread for a few days now.We released Buccaneer using TGEA 18 months ago, it was a bit of a mammoth undertaking as we ended up porting it into about 3 or 4 different versions of TGE and TGEA etc. over a 3 year timeframe.. Yeah it cost us quite a bit of time and of course alot of money to do it, it was really frustrating, but it was a much better option than hiring half a dozen programmers to write an engine from scratch, was on another level from what they could have achieved anyhow, and it worked really well, we released it and it was really well recieved. Even now we're getting emails saying how great it looks and how people can't believe it was made by two artists with no previous coding experience etc... Without GGs, we'd never have been able to even think about it. These are the kind of dreams these guys are allowing the little guys like us to follow.
We've recently ported the game into T3D without a single change to the rendering code that T3D ships with, we've completely ditched all of our bespoke rendering code we added to TGEA, and it looks utterly and completely stunning, and I couldn't be more pleased with the results ( and the framerate !!) but I agree with the other guys here as this version of the game desperatly needs a finished, stable T3D1.1 to be released so that we can get on with the task of getting the game to a release status also....Currently we have a GPU lockup with Nvidea cards to do with water and particles etc. etc.
So, it's the same problem as before, here we are again, but we got there in the end last time, and we'll do it again. This is the problem with relying on somebody else to create our engine for us, an engine of the quality we couldn't possibly hope to create ourselves, we're completely at their mercy in regard to our publishing timeframes etc. and every month that goes by is another where no revenue is coming through the door, potential deals are put on hold or even lost forever etc. etc. in fact I'm having to work as an artist on a AAA title to keep the company moving forwards right now, but I know we'll get there, and with GGs also giving us little guys the potential to release on T360 too ( for me the very biggest reason that Unity isn't even worth looking at), for the sake of another few months of uncertainty it'll all be worth the wait again, and this financial hurt and frustration will be all forgotten as long as we,as independant companies can survive of course. I also agree however, it would be great to know roughly when this is all going to happen, June? July? 2010?
In short, T3D1.1 complete, beautiful, bug free, and easily portable to 360 is all we ask. 8)
COME ON ERIC AND ALL THE GGs BRETHREN !!! KEEP UP THE AMAZING WORK, YOU'VE STILL GOT US BEHIND YOU, I'LL PERSONALLY BUY YOU ALL A BEER AT GDC IF YOU MAKE IT HAPPEN SOON !!
#70
@Jon D - Just to let you know, iTorque has a dedicated team. It's all they work on. The only person on the that team that does multiple jobs is myself. Just thought I'd let you know that part of your suggestion is already in action.
05/29/2010 (7:33 am)
@Harvey - Thanks for that post. It's very balanced, uses real world examples, and is actually very motivational. @Jon D - Just to let you know, iTorque has a dedicated team. It's all they work on. The only person on the that team that does multiple jobs is myself. Just thought I'd let you know that part of your suggestion is already in action.
#71
05/29/2010 (8:28 am)
No problem Michael 8) 
#72
05/29/2010 (8:34 am)
@HarveyQuote:Awesome use of a classic British contradictary understatement, mate. :)
it was a bit of a mammoth undertaking
#73
@Michael - The suggestion of iTorque having a dedicated team was only the second option. My real opinion is that it shouldn't even exist in the first place. All it does is take away people who should be working on the flagship product T3D. If/when T3D is successful, then branch out to new engines, <em>one at a time</em>.
05/29/2010 (8:56 am)
@Harvery - Unity will soon be on EVERY major platform. From Torque360 to PS3 to PSP.@Michael - The suggestion of iTorque having a dedicated team was only the second option. My real opinion is that it shouldn't even exist in the first place. All it does is take away people who should be working on the flagship product T3D. If/when T3D is successful, then branch out to new engines, <em>one at a time</em>.
#74
@Jon .. Really? Yeah, that's pretty impressive for sure...
05/29/2010 (9:14 am)
@Steve .. I say, Cheers old chap, wouldn't want to disapoint one by not speaking the Queens English and all that. Cucumber sandwich anyone? 8)@Jon .. Really? Yeah, that's pretty impressive for sure...
#75
05/29/2010 (9:31 am)
@Jon D - Well, we can agree to disagree. The team on iTorque was never dedicated to Torque 3D development. They are contractors who worked on their own iPhone games or genre kits, and we brought them on for iTorque dev. We didn't take anyone away from T3D.
#76
05/29/2010 (9:51 am)
@Michael - My point is these people are not working for free. That is $$$ that could go towards making T3D a usable product. I would love for Torque3D to succeed, but I am highly doubting that is going to happen as long as there are so many engines GG has to support.
#77
05/29/2010 (9:58 am)
@Jon D - There is some truth in your last statement. However, iTorque development is paying for itself. It has its own budget because it created it. I'm not taking money or man power away from the other engines. If iTorque development ceased to exist, there would be no additional $$$ or manpower going toward Torque 3D. Additionally, iTorque development has contributed improvements to the other engines. A decent number of optimizations and bug fixes fro iTorque 2D went into TGB 1.7.5, so it's actually a strong counter to your suggestion. It's evidence that convergence of the engines has already been taking place for a while.
#78
I absolutely would not be surprised to see a 'Torque 3D Advanced' preorder. "For only $400, you will get early access to our most advanced engine ever." I swear GGs business strategy is now offer preorders and never deliver a bug free product. This is TGEA all over again.
05/29/2010 (10:16 am)
@Michael - Well we certainly disagree. I just think that GG has become the jack of all trades and master of none by having so many engines. I use to think of TGE as the best available despite the source being a rat's nest. I can't think of any tech that GG now has that I would even consider close to the best in the indie market. Most of it is buggy and poorly optimized. I'm not saying that it will not develop into something great someday, I just highly doubt it. I absolutely would not be surprised to see a 'Torque 3D Advanced' preorder. "For only $400, you will get early access to our most advanced engine ever." I swear GGs business strategy is now offer preorders and never deliver a bug free product. This is TGEA all over again.
#79
There is nothing much worse than worrying I will release this game to clients that experience crashes because they will come down on us like a ton of bricks.
@Michael - I would love to also post encouraging and motivational videos and screen shots for you and everyone else to see but its not going to happen until we are done with beta or entering a later stage of beta. I will tell you this much T3D is going to get us to the finish line with great graphics, networking and workflow. If you give us the stable tools and bug fixes we will deliver our product and it will have the Torque3D logo and technology behind it.
05/29/2010 (11:03 am)
On the other hand if I could pay $400 right now to fix the crash bugs we have it would be a done deal despite whats happened.There is nothing much worse than worrying I will release this game to clients that experience crashes because they will come down on us like a ton of bricks.
@Michael - I would love to also post encouraging and motivational videos and screen shots for you and everyone else to see but its not going to happen until we are done with beta or entering a later stage of beta. I will tell you this much T3D is going to get us to the finish line with great graphics, networking and workflow. If you give us the stable tools and bug fixes we will deliver our product and it will have the Torque3D logo and technology behind it.
#80
It is becoming amazingly easy for a small number of skilled programmers to patch together a decent game engine in a reasonable short amount of time (all the old days, hard to figure out code have wonderful examples already posted in numerous game development websites).
05/29/2010 (12:50 pm)
Along the line of what Harvey Greensall said in post #69, I just a few weeks ago finished up a small project with a team total of 5 members, what DID program its own scratch engine with all the glitter bells and whistles one expects from a SM3 engine. The only difference between T3D and our engine is ours is proprietary to the project needs, and not at all flexible. It is becoming amazingly easy for a small number of skilled programmers to patch together a decent game engine in a reasonable short amount of time (all the old days, hard to figure out code have wonderful examples already posted in numerous game development websites).
Torque 3D Owner Caylo Gypsyblood
This statement seems more a venting; or comment made before actually understanding what people are bitching about in this thread. There are/were other threads where the ''vehemence ... about broken "promises" over features that had to be cut because they didn't work out as planned'', issue was fully explored.
I took a bit over an hour this morning as I drank my coffee and re-read all of the Torque 3D Development blogs, then re-read many threads JUST LIKE THIS ONE, and it is very clear to see how easy it is to misinterpret GG's hype as "promises".
A bit more research into TGEA's slow bug fixxing process and the ensuing complaints only helps support every expressed concern in this thread. It also makes me feel more and more that GarageGames is pooping on my head and trying to call it a helmet.
I can only find a few examples where, after any new engine was launched and some showstopper bugs were found and reported by the community; GG had an "FIX" posted a few hours later. And only ONCE an official FIX replacing the DOWNLOAD-ABLE version. All other "FIX" postings one needed to code in and recompile.
I can find numerous examples where real ugly bugs were completely left upto the GG community to find solutions for. And I can find numerous examples where it took over 3 months before any bug fixing action was taken by GG at all.
So the real problem here is not what features finally make it into any of the Torque engines, but the so very slow bug fixxing.
It seems the great majority of GG customers have always been asking for more frequent SMALL bug fix releases in place of one giant FIX that requires many months of waiting, and then is itself speckled with NEW bugs.
Eric Preisz's Blog postings and even forum replys DO NOT seem to be addressing the issue of the old slow trickle of official bug fixes from GG. I see an attempt being made to NOT have so many showstopper bugs in the first place; but this is not a solution to the accumulating complaints.
I guess the question i have been working upto is this (And i am taking into consideration the information gleamed from Scott Burns Blog from yesterday):
Eric, what plains do Garage Games have for improving the turnaround SPEED of the bug fixxing procedure?