Next Code drop ? using current is getting counter productive.

#41 Daniel Balmert, You are apparently under the impression that everyone should be like you, without considering other possibilities.

One possibilities i have considering is perhaps your a very talented programmer and can just whip up any old replacement code for features that you find not working. But if this was the case, why did not you get the PRO version of T3D?

You also seem to be under the impression that because im harking in the forums I have currently halted any work because of T3D's current condition, and instead picked up picket signs.

#42 Hate to chime in into this love fest but I'd like to ask something. I sweated through a year and a half of TGEA jungles without making any updates to the Torque codebase whatsoever. I think one update [1.8] did come out but by the time it did I didn't have the wherewithal to make a port.

I am pretty much expecting to be "locked" into the version of Torque I start tweaking more or less, so I'm curious: Whats planned to be fixed and what features are in this "super beta" that everybody is mooing about?

I mean, I plan on keeping my code base alot cleaner this time than I did in my last project so a port will be easier, but I want to know how substantially the codebase will change in the next version and what features might be added.

Also, is there a way if there are substantial fixes or features, that a nightly build source could be available for people to get access to the source files, code snippets and so on that fix said bugs or add new features? Those who need full-on installers would have to wait, but for those of us who have some developers on our teams, we could probably deal with merging small code updates here and there to fix certain bugs.

#43 Legend have it that the next "super beta" will fix everything, but I am just hoping the greatest majority of the feature usage type bugs are fixed.

Quote:Also, is there a way if there are substantial fixes or features, that a nightly build source could be available for people to get access to the source files, code snippets and so on that fix said bugs or add new features? Those who need full-on installers would have to wait, but for those of us who have some developers on our teams, we could probably deal with merging small code updates here and there to fix certain bugs.

This would be the perfect solution, but as i understand it not possible because something convoluted about the code base they have, I imagine they work with this great beast of C'code who poops out torquepowered game engine eggs that need to be carefully nurtured one on one until they grow into full featured game engines.

#44 @Caylo ROTFLMAO!

@

Quote:Daniel Balmert


If it's TRULY critical to your design, shouldn't you be throwing a lot of man hours at it anyway? No "out-of-the-box" tool or feature will make your game good or appealing. Why not write a custom version of the tool you want? It's not like you'll get the tool from GG and everything will be fine and you'll drive off into the sunset in your red camaro with a bucket of cash

???? where does this logic come from? We use plenty of out of the box tools that work exactly as advertised. Perhaps too many years of dealing w/ Torque releases has warped your perception of what should be expected of a product that you buy.

I don't understand why when someone is upset that Torque does not function the way it is supposed to you guys all get flustered and act like we are the ones in the wrong.

"How dare us expect the tools to work correctly."

Then we usually hear: Why don't you just fix it instead of bitching? or Why don't you just write your own tool?

Why because we already bought one that we supposed to do it obviously!

Writing our own tool or fixing something that is broken by no fault of our own cost us money. We have fixed many things ourselves. But that cost us more money. We prolly run close to 20K a month in operating cost. luckily we have multiple projects going on so some shifting around of personnel can be done but this is not ideal for productivity either. Pulling people from project to project them coming back if it has been a month or 2 takes a while to get back up to full speed.

But honestly it is all irrelevant. We will never use a Torque product for a large project again.


I went out on a limb knowing the history of this company Things had improved alot but I have to say since the move " to Vegas" and the departure of Brett, I have to say we have pretty much lost confidence in GG as a whole.

Right now we just want to get our hands on the final 1.1 release and finish this project. Then put this behind us.

#45 Disclaimer: This thread post is indeed a off topic side tangent what no one will probably find enlightening anyway

Quote:I don't understand why when someone get upset that Torque does not function the way it is supposed to you guys all get flustered and act like we are the ones in the wrong.

It is sometimes called the emotional mental flinch reaction when someone maintains a disambiguated polysemantic logical or illogical understanding as if that understanding were the only ONE RIGHT way to view the subject and everything else is simply not correct.

It is a very common human Phycological Defensive Mechanism and everyone have subjects that will set it off, it is part of what makes us unique. It is often used as a tool in neurolinguistics to reveal the 'language' definitions the brain actually use to reflect emotional attitudes to otherwise non emotional subjects.

Now that you know that; Whenever you find yourself in a situation where you think you perceive a emotional 'tone' in a conversation you can ask yourself WHY you think you perceive THAT emotion. It truly helps keep discussions from becoming arguments, and leads to a deeper comprehension all around.


EDIT: And there is no RIGHT or WRONG way of thinking in the school of neurolinguistics.

#46 *cough* 1 *cough* Year *cough* for *cough* a *cough* .1 *cough* release
..flagship huh?

..& now..more waiting.

#47

Quote:Legend have it that the next "super beta" will fix everything, but I am just hoping the greatest majority of the feature usage type bugs are fixed.

I thinking you are setting a false expectation.

I don't think we said this is a super beta and I don't think we said it will fix everything.

To help everyone get back on the same expectation, here is the post that set many of the expectations that people are referring to.

Here are some highlights from the post dated 6/4:

Quote:We are expecting a July release for 1.1 final. We have an 8 out of 10 confidence in this since it is dependent on the results of the beta that we are currently bug fixing.

Quote:We are testing the 1.1 Beta 2 installers now, but we expect that we will be building more installers as more bugs are fixing. We don’t expect a release candidate to be in QA for another couple of weeks.

#48 Here are just two of the many official reports about T3D, going back over a year that i have retained with my near perfect recall skills (curse my memory, i could be ignorant and blissful like so many others without it...)

From 3-26-2010

From 04-16-2010

Now what bothers me most is when multiple people ask multiple questions, receive assuring answers, and then months latter what are told is not the apparent truth, this would be excusable giving the nature of the industry a few times but not habitually.

So who actually is it that is;

Quote:I thinking you are setting a false expectation.

I was making joke, is that all that every official news drop about T3D is?

I know this is pointless conversation because there is no way Torque Officials will admit they have been, and continue to be deceptive, But I am the type of person that will not allow bad thinking/actions when i experience it.

#49 Caylo,
I'm not sure I follow what you were getting at with those two links...

From the first one:

Quote:
Hey all,
I had planned to get a blog up about the plans for Torque 3D today but I have been pretty heads down on TGB 1.7.5 this week. I'll post the blog next week once I have the time to do it justice =)

4/10/2010

I then followed that up with this blog less than a week later on 4/16/2010. I said I was going to post a blog "next week" and I did. How exactly is that deceptive?

Granted I was overly optimistic about how quickly we could wrap up "more background work that we need to get done" but I think I have admitted to that more than once.

From the second one:

Quote:
@Brad - Beta 2 is going to QA this month.

Also, we launched TGB 1.7.5 last Friday and TorqueX will also be going back to QA by the end of the month. I'd say we've been very busy across the board.

5/6/2010

Torque 3D 1.1 Beta 2 did go into QA that month but it was discovered that there was a lot more work left to be done than we had anticipated. It has been in QA ever since then with them reporting bugs and us fixing them (with more and less focus at times depending on what other products are in QA). However, there are a *lot* of bugs and most people seem to want this release to be as stable and bug free as possible so that they can be productive with it so it is taking time.

Again, I am not sure how that post could be conceived as deceptive.

This is our first time working with a full sized QA team and we badly underestimated the time it would take to get that team up and running and how long it would take to do proper QA on all of our products. We have learned a lot and our estimates are getting more accurate (though still not perfect) but there have been some growing pains.

#50 Torque 3D 1.1 Beta 2 did go into QA that month but it was discovered that there was a lot more work left to be done than we had anticipated.

This would have been the type of news to remove the fuel from this type of discussion in the first place. When something like that comes up to change the way things are turning out, an announcement of such would be greatly appreciated and viewed not as a weakness but a strength. It would add to perceived credibility, and none of this other ugliness would have reason to take place.

My posting the above two links was more in tune with the fact that in one line Eric Preisz is joking about ME setting a false expectation and then continues to explain that this misunderstanding is only a few weeks old, what is setting a false expectation about the true subject of this conversation.


EDIT: I want to express that I am indeed very hopeful that the new procedures put into place to help accelerate product launch and debugging will fix many of the problems. Also I have full faith that everyone is working very hard to get T3D satisfied. I understand new procedures take time to tweak into a model of efficiency, and appreciate that TorquePowers are taking this extra time to get it RIGHT.

#51 I think the confusion is coming from why is Torque3D being put on the back burner to TorqueX (hobbyist product) and iT2D.

Is Torque3D not the flagship product? If I would have known Torque3D was such a low priority I never would have purchased it.

The people running Unity are much wiser than GarageGames. They have one unified code base. GarageGames is spread so thin it is going to tear any second.

#52 Ok...I understand now =)

Moving forward we will start to do more regular updates and will be sure to let you know as soon as we are sure that we are going to miss a posted estimate. Sometimes we aren't going to be sure until close to that actual estimate so please be understanding of that but we will make our best effort.

#53 Torque 3D 1.1 Beta 2 did go into QA that month but it was discovered that there was a lot more work left to be done than we had anticipated.

This would have been the type of news to remove the fuel from this type of discussion in the first place. When something like that comes up to change the way things are turning out, an announcement of such would be greatly appreciated and viewed not as a weakness but a strength. It would add to perceived credibility, and none of this other ugliness would have reason to take place.

My posting the above two links was more in tune with the fact that in one line Eric Preisz is joking about ME setting a false expectation and then continues to explain that this misunderstanding is only a few weeks old, what is setting a false expectation about the true subject of this conversation.


EDIT: I want to express that I am indeed very hopeful that the new procedures put into place to help accelerate product launch and debugging will fix many of the problems. Also I have full faith that everyone is working very hard to get T3D satisfied. I understand new procedures take time to tweak into a model of efficiency, and appreciate that TorquePowers are taking this extra time to get it RIGHT.

#54 Jon D,
I've explained a couple times already...

Last year we had to back burner a number of our other products in order to devote a tremendous amount of effort to Torque 3D. However, in order to keep those other products moving, we have had to focus on them a bit more this year. We had hoped that we would be able to limit the impact of that to a couple of months but due to a number of well hashed out factors (move to Vegas, new management, replacement of team members, new QA department) it has taken us closer to 4 months to wrap up the work on those back burnered products.

This doesn't mean Torque 3D isn't very important to us. It just means that we have limited resources to spend on far too many products. We are aware of this fundamental problem of having too many products and are actively working to correct it.

Each one of our products is important and serves many of the vital needs of its customers. The TGB community or the Torque X community or the iTorque community would be equally as outraged if we were to drop their product as you would be if we were to drop Torque 3D (we aren't!). It is going to take time and skill to solve this problem but we *are* working on it!

#55 Matt,

My point is simple, as long as you have that many products you will always have mediocre products that will NOT be competitive. You have joe blow in his basement making an engine better than Torque3D nowadays. You need to do better. Both Leadwerks and Esenthel, both one man teams, are surpassing or near surpassing Torque3D. Torque3D is so far behind Unity, it will never catch back up. Does this not worry you?

#56 We are well aware of our position but we are not worried because we are taking the steps necessary to correct the situation.

#57 Hurray! Thanks Matt, the stormy grey weather is clearing already.

It is indeed wonderful that TorquePowers have listened to the complaints and are working at full power (as they indeed always have been), to make everything work out perfect.

I am fully reassured that everything is moving in the right direction.

Thank you TorquePowered employees for taking your time to set such subjects, such as this thread have become, to rest with your detailed and honest explanation of what was wrong and how it is being corrected (as perceived from versus complaints).

No one could logically ask for anything more then what Matt has been saying; They hear our complaints and are working hard to make them right.

#58 Hey Guys, I'm in Las Vegas, I'm doing a programming bachelors are you in need of interns? I'm not looking to do main programming changes but perhaps tasks that I can learn from and help out with?

#59 Hi JesseL,
Currently, we can only accept unpaid interns who would not be able to work on any of our shipping products. There is potential for them to work on a side project that would be released for free but that is all the law will allow for unpaid interns.

#60 Are you saying unpaid interns would be able to work on details such as Tutorial or Demo content shipped WITH(but for free) a game engines?

Or that the unpaid interns could do the type of tasks, but as free 'community' involved type projects?