Web Deployment...is it working yet?
by Hallsofvallhalla · in Torque 3D Professional · 03/25/2010 (7:09 am) · 126 replies
Weird my first post disappeared.
When I deploy a web game it creates a exe(110 meg for a simple terrain and two vehicles) and that exe must be downloaded by players and played from their local machine. That is not web deployment. Am I doing something wrong? There is no way having to install a large file is web deployment. It is suppose to be streamed from the host.
The main reason for my purchasing T3D is for the web deployment so I hope I have just done something wrong.
When I deploy a web game it creates a exe(110 meg for a simple terrain and two vehicles) and that exe must be downloaded by players and played from their local machine. That is not web deployment. Am I doing something wrong? There is no way having to install a large file is web deployment. It is suppose to be streamed from the host.
The main reason for my purchasing T3D is for the web deployment so I hope I have just done something wrong.
About the author
Been in game design for about 4 years now. Some of my titles are Forsaken sanctum 3d mmo and a web browser mmorpg. Urban Realms - WB mmo. Planetary Wars - WB mmo. Quests Of Crocania WB mmo. also teach tutorials on Web Development.
#82
You spend your time working with our products; I spend my build building them. I'm on the inside...it's hard for me to really be able to think like a customer. I need help from people like you.
If we are able to land our Mac port out of this, I'll be delighted.
10/20/2011 (9:50 am)
@Halls - It's a good conversation, the feedback is greatly appreciated. Ultimately, you and people like you buy this stuff. You spend your time working with our products; I spend my build building them. I'm on the inside...it's hard for me to really be able to think like a customer. I need help from people like you.
If we are able to land our Mac port out of this, I'll be delighted.
#84
10/20/2011 (10:38 am)
@Andy - When I was a professor, my first lecture talked about managing expectations. The secret to a happy customer, wife, etc. is to set appropriate expectations and then meet or exceed them. You can't always control what you can deliver, but you can control the expectation. 
#85
When it was announced that T3D (Powered by Instant Action) was offering a web deployment solution, most people just assumed that it would be 'powered by Instant Action tech', when in fact it ended up being powered by a 4HP lawnmower.
10/20/2011 (10:42 am)
I think that a lot of the disappointment with the web functionality goes back to the whole Instant Action thing. For many, IA was synonymous with a streaming web player for games. When it was announced that T3D (Powered by Instant Action) was offering a web deployment solution, most people just assumed that it would be 'powered by Instant Action tech', when in fact it ended up being powered by a 4HP lawnmower.
#86
10/20/2011 (11:58 am)
@Guy - Makes sense. Last year, we had hoped to make that happen. But then... 
#87
I think that the "in minutes" has direct connotations to streaming when talking about web technology and plugins. Anyone not reading this very, very carefully is going to be left with the distinct impression that the Torque web deployment has streaming/downloading aspects like the majority of the rest of the game engine plugins. It may be technically accurate but it appears to be crafted very carefully to give the wrong impression.
You can only deploy to Safari in a very particular set of circumstances (pre-Snow Leopard which isn't officially supported as the min spec for the engine) so I would say this is dangerous and misleading to include.
10/20/2011 (12:13 pm)
Quote:Deploy any Torque 3D project to the web in minutes with our web publishing option. Torque 3D supports all major browsers and your title performs as a native application.
I think that the "in minutes" has direct connotations to streaming when talking about web technology and plugins. Anyone not reading this very, very carefully is going to be left with the distinct impression that the Torque web deployment has streaming/downloading aspects like the majority of the rest of the game engine plugins. It may be technically accurate but it appears to be crafted very carefully to give the wrong impression.
Quote:The web has fast become one of the most important marketplaces for new and established developers. With Facebook, MySpace, and Kongregate leading the way in the new social media market, being able to deploy to web browsers is an important target for your games. Torque 3D provides browser-based deployment out of the box.
When you deploy to the web, you can play the game directly in the browser with the same performance level as the desktop application. Torque 3D supports all major browsers including IE, Firefox, Chrome, and Safari.
You can only deploy to Safari in a very particular set of circumstances (pre-Snow Leopard which isn't officially supported as the min spec for the engine) so I would say this is dangerous and misleading to include.
#88
10/20/2011 (12:31 pm)
Just add, "This is not a streaming solution".
#89
I think David Montgomery-Blake crafted that. I can't picture him hurting a fly let alone carefully craft something to give the wrong impression. We will be fixing these. We don't edit the production site any more so the changes won't take place until we do the next push of the site.
10/20/2011 (12:35 pm)
Quote:to be crafted very carefully to give the wrong impression
I think David Montgomery-Blake crafted that. I can't picture him hurting a fly let alone carefully craft something to give the wrong impression. We will be fixing these. We don't edit the production site any more so the changes won't take place until we do the next push of the site.
#90
Yeah, the lack of streaming is the elephant in the room. I wouldn't expect there to be a universal Torque plugin that would open up a can of security worms, just some way to make the Web deployment beneficial over a standard download-and-install deployment.
Real engine-level streaming would obviously be the holy grail, but just some way to easily segment a game into manageable parts that can be downloaded on-demand, i.e. per "level", would also improve the situation greatly. Downloading 20-50MB chunks at a time would be a lot better than a single monolithic GB+ download. Obviously it wouldn't work in all situations, but I think the majority of games out there could make good use of this.
I think the immediate goal for most indies is to get eyes on their games, and the quicker those eyes can get on the game before they lose interest and switch back to porn, the better ;) That's the major selling point of web deployment I think, not just the ability to play a game in a browser, which taken by itself tends to hurt the experience more than help it when talking about high-performance 3D games.
Anyway, I'll touch base with you shortly re: Mac port.
10/20/2011 (12:43 pm)
Quote:
Well, honestly, that's all other systems do as well. The only different between what Unity and us, aside from maybe some polish, is the streaming. Edit: the fact that the games is bundled with the plugin is different as well...this is an artifact of the InstantAction team not wanting a Torque user to write a virus that would blacklist the IA plugin.
Yeah, the lack of streaming is the elephant in the room. I wouldn't expect there to be a universal Torque plugin that would open up a can of security worms, just some way to make the Web deployment beneficial over a standard download-and-install deployment.
Real engine-level streaming would obviously be the holy grail, but just some way to easily segment a game into manageable parts that can be downloaded on-demand, i.e. per "level", would also improve the situation greatly. Downloading 20-50MB chunks at a time would be a lot better than a single monolithic GB+ download. Obviously it wouldn't work in all situations, but I think the majority of games out there could make good use of this.
I think the immediate goal for most indies is to get eyes on their games, and the quicker those eyes can get on the game before they lose interest and switch back to porn, the better ;) That's the major selling point of web deployment I think, not just the ability to play a game in a browser, which taken by itself tends to hurt the experience more than help it when talking about high-performance 3D games.
Anyway, I'll touch base with you shortly re: Mac port.
#91
Actually, I am pretty sure Brett wrote that particular line because I distinctly remember having this very argument with him about how misleading it is. David may have changed parts of it but I think Brett was the original writer.
10/20/2011 (2:14 pm)
Quote:I think David Montgomery-Blake crafted that.
Actually, I am pretty sure Brett wrote that particular line because I distinctly remember having this very argument with him about how misleading it is. David may have changed parts of it but I think Brett was the original writer.
#92
10/20/2011 (2:16 pm)
Oh...hrm....
#93
10/20/2011 (2:27 pm)
I'm sure, given the resources, time and a good plan, Eric will exceed the expectations of the past. We'll just have to put the past behind us, and look forward to the future :)
#94
The free version of Unity does not "stream". It instead compresses the game down to a managble size, 3-10 meg levels.
10/20/2011 (2:42 pm)
This does bring up a good point that if there was a way to just compress the file like Unity does it would make it far easier. The free version of Unity does not "stream". It instead compresses the game down to a managble size, 3-10 meg levels.
#95
I have no problem updating it to further reflect the plugin's state. I still do not know how anyone who has downloaded the demo to try it out or who has read through the page can assume that it provides streaming. Streaming is a big deal, but we have never mentioned that it supported streaming. In fact, whenever asked about it on support, I always noted that it did not. Perhaps the confusion in this topic does come back to the "within minutes" note.
In a cursory glance at my e-mail (and I mean, very cursory since I'm sick at home), I have had about about seven people contact me over the years with the assumption of streaming support. Most of them are posting in this topic. More often, I had people who were using the demo and wanted to know if it was coming and I had to tell them that it was not on the docket.
I'll look at cleaning up the language again on the page when I get into work. With the Mack truck rolling through my head, I'm not sure if that will be tomorrow, though.
10/20/2011 (8:42 pm)
When I was revising the page for 1.1's release, I thought about removing web deployment initially. The plugin works, however, so there was not really any reason to remove it. When I looked specifically at the "in minutes", I was thinking of packaging for the web, which is a quick process from Toolbox, not download speeds around the world.I have no problem updating it to further reflect the plugin's state. I still do not know how anyone who has downloaded the demo to try it out or who has read through the page can assume that it provides streaming. Streaming is a big deal, but we have never mentioned that it supported streaming. In fact, whenever asked about it on support, I always noted that it did not. Perhaps the confusion in this topic does come back to the "within minutes" note.
In a cursory glance at my e-mail (and I mean, very cursory since I'm sick at home), I have had about about seven people contact me over the years with the assumption of streaming support. Most of them are posting in this topic. More often, I had people who were using the demo and wanted to know if it was coming and I had to tell them that it was not on the docket.
I'll look at cleaning up the language again on the page when I get into work. With the Mack truck rolling through my head, I'm not sure if that will be tomorrow, though.
#96
(IA streamed, correct?)
I have read so many different things through the recent years that I am not aware of the current stance on that.
10/20/2011 (11:07 pm)
Is there a possibility of the IA tech being added to T3D ? (IA streamed, correct?)
I have read so many different things through the recent years that I am not aware of the current stance on that.
#97
What demo? Is there even a Web demo available? I don't see one.
I also don't see anywhere that it specifically mentions that the engine supports hardware accelerated 3D rendering either, but I guarantee just about everybody that buys the engine assumes that per-pixel dynamic lighting is hardware accelerated, because that's the industry standard and it would be pretty pointless without it. The same is true with streaming support for Web publishing, albeit to a much lesser extent, since it's a relatively young technology in regards to 3D games.
Anyway it's not an emergency, so I think it's probably safe for you to get well before you worry about it ;)
10/21/2011 (12:12 am)
Quote:I still do not know how anyone who has downloaded the demo to try it out or who has read through the page can assume that it provides streaming. Streaming is a big deal, but we have never mentioned that it supported streaming. In fact, whenever asked about it on support, I always noted that it did not.
What demo? Is there even a Web demo available? I don't see one.
I also don't see anywhere that it specifically mentions that the engine supports hardware accelerated 3D rendering either, but I guarantee just about everybody that buys the engine assumes that per-pixel dynamic lighting is hardware accelerated, because that's the industry standard and it would be pretty pointless without it. The same is true with streaming support for Web publishing, albeit to a much lesser extent, since it's a relatively young technology in regards to 3D games.
Anyway it's not an emergency, so I think it's probably safe for you to get well before you worry about it ;)
#98
I am personally not happy with how it turned out.
Safari broke the week of release with 64bit NPAPI being introduced in Snow Leopard (this also broke Unity's web player and it took them a fair amount of time to recover). Getting the web deployment working on Safari wasn't something I looked into in great depth as it wasn't prioritized and I left the InstantAction owned GarageGames shortly after the move to Vegas was announced.
I know there are projects that have taken the plugins and expanded upon them by adding stuff like curl, but their stock function leaves a lot to be desired.
As others, I think the marketing marterials are misleading.
At this point, I think custom plugins in general aren't a great idea. There are simply far too many barriers to entry. I don't know of a single successful plugin other than Flash. Unity/Java plugins are in there, but no where near the install base... Java is pretty huge, but after a brief love affair, I can't get behind it for the web. I would guess Unity will be phasing out their web player the moment their Flash offering is solid enough.
If you want to be on the web, cross platform and cross browser, it is pretty much Flash. You can hate on Flash all ya want, but I don't see this changing anytime soon... and either does Epic or Unity and the pile of (big ass) companies developing games on the web.
Mac support would seem a more important priority.
10/21/2011 (12:54 am)
The Torque 3D Web Deployment was written in a short window with 1 resource on it and very strict guidelines to not interfere with InstantAction web plugin features. I am personally not happy with how it turned out.
Safari broke the week of release with 64bit NPAPI being introduced in Snow Leopard (this also broke Unity's web player and it took them a fair amount of time to recover). Getting the web deployment working on Safari wasn't something I looked into in great depth as it wasn't prioritized and I left the InstantAction owned GarageGames shortly after the move to Vegas was announced.
I know there are projects that have taken the plugins and expanded upon them by adding stuff like curl, but their stock function leaves a lot to be desired.
As others, I think the marketing marterials are misleading.
At this point, I think custom plugins in general aren't a great idea. There are simply far too many barriers to entry. I don't know of a single successful plugin other than Flash. Unity/Java plugins are in there, but no where near the install base... Java is pretty huge, but after a brief love affair, I can't get behind it for the web. I would guess Unity will be phasing out their web player the moment their Flash offering is solid enough.
If you want to be on the web, cross platform and cross browser, it is pretty much Flash. You can hate on Flash all ya want, but I don't see this changing anytime soon... and either does Epic or Unity and the pile of (big ass) companies developing games on the web.
Mac support would seem a more important priority.
#99
Unfortunately, no. The IA tech and the rights to it were all retained by IAC.
10/21/2011 (1:24 am)
@ebUnfortunately, no. The IA tech and the rights to it were all retained by IAC.
#100
10/21/2011 (1:33 am)
It is obvious by now, but I'll say it anyway, it is great Torque was rescued from the IA collapse by the current crew. They are obviously working very hard, let's try and not drag them behind the horse for inherited questionable decisions... 
Torque Owner Hallsofvallhalla
The Games Guild Studios
Once again, that is like the tracotr salesman saying, the only difference between our tracotr and John Deeres is the fact their buckets work.
Streaming is the key. Of course all web based items need to download to the client but streaming makes it "instant". Would you buy satellite TV or cable TV if you had to download all the shows and commercials first?
What makes Netflix so great? Streaming!
Anyways not trying to blast you or anything. I understand the cost and can't argue there. I appreciate your time on the matter and will just look to the horizon for a resolution.