Web Deployment...is it working yet?

#61 So I guess I am being forced to necro a thread and instead of someone actually replying with a solution or information they just close the thread. Thanks GG
I am assuming that means no changes were made? How old is this thread?

Last post from closed thread:

okay now this really burns my hide

Quote:Web Publishing � Deploy any Torque 3D project to the web in minutes with our web
publishing option. Torque 3D supports all major browsers and your title performs as a
native application.

Did we not already have a long conversation about this???

Prove to me that I can deploy any project I have to the web in minutes!!!!

Are you saying the streaming is working out of the box now? Did I miss something? That would make my day.

Or are you saying I would have to upload my project to the server and then the player would have to download the entire package before playing?

If it is the latter then that is a joke and false advertising to say the least.

#62

Quote:This thread is a few months old but I would like to mention I am making a facebook game using the web deployment. The system works just fine, it can exchange information AND FUNCTIONS back and forth between my hosting servers and exchange info between facebook and the game client. If you have problems understanding how to do this just check out the npplugin code, cinterface.cpp, webcommon.cpp and the sample html, it works right out of the box (although you have to comment out some WebCommon::MessageBox's unless you like getting popups every time you do this);

So I gather it is taking you more than minutes? You are actually having to edit source? What about binary users?

#63 /Rant off

Sorry just agrivated that nothing is being done and I can't find any documentation on this and after all this time I have recieved no help.

I have no idea what version of torque I have and not sure if I can even get source. I have bought too many different things. Studiom binary, professional, Doesn't make sense any more.

#64 @Halls - Hey, calm down. I can get you through this. :)

Firstly, there's a really good tutorial that walks you through everything.
www.garagegames.com/products/torque-3d/tutorials. It's the last entry on the left hand side. "Deploying To The Web".

There is no streaming in Torque3D, the user downloads the game with the installation of the plug-in.

Where did you find the language for the web publishing copy. I think it is true, but we do have a bug in the latest Firefox, so I'd like to update it.

Clicking on your name tag shows me that you have 1.1 T3D Pro Studio. We don't have feature deltas between our products, just two variants: source or no source, seat license(aka Studio) or individual.

#65 Thanks for the quick response. Sorry for the rant, but the main reason I bought T3D was from your wordage on the website. You make it sound like this is full streaming web deployment and it can be done within minutes.

So if I have a relativly small T3D game at 400 megs are you saying I will upload the 400 meg file to my web host then everytime someone wants to play they have to download a 400 meg file???

You do realize that is usless right? Or am I missing something?

I love T3D and plan on purchasing the 1.2 but it will just sit because it has no real web option.

1.1 T3D Pro Studio = source?

#66 @Hallsofvallhalla -Correct, source.

Quote:You make it sound like this is full streaming web deployment and it can be done within minutes.

Where? There was a time when GG.com had lofty language. I don't ever think that language suggested we had streaming, but it was lofty for sure. One of the first things I did when I joined was to try and find everything that could confuse people and remove it. It's not the way I want us to do business. If you could send me the URL, it would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:You do realize that is usless right?

Useless, no. But not ideal for a Facebook game I agree. The last time I looked at the WOW demo, their initial download was 600 megs. Engine level streaming is a feature in our future, but we don't have it today.

Streaming or not, many people on Facebook won't even download plug-ins. Especially Facebook audiences. You'll loose 50% just on the request for the plug-in install. Better solutions are out there, but there's no clear answer yet.

#67

Quote:Web Publishing: Deploy any Torque 3D project to the web in minutes with our web
publishing option. Torque 3D supports all major browsers and your title performs as a
native application.

This is very vague. Because every other engine on the market DOES do streaming I would think it would be safe to assume so does torque. Don't think you could upload a 600 meg client within mere minutes either.

Quote:Useless, no. But not ideal for a Facebook game I agree. The last time I looked at the WOW demo, their initial download was 600 megs. Engine level streaming is a feature in our future, but we don't have it today.

Exactly, How long ago was WOW built? The Tech is old, but actually they have a streaming version now. Look it up. Not enough people used the one you are referring to. Hmmm wonder why. The web is meant to be now, fast, quick, and everchanging instantly. Not wait 2 hours to download something. There is no difference in that and downloading a client.

Yes with the nature of Torque and it's client sizes it is useless.

Quote:Streaming or not, many people on Facebook won't even download plug-ins. Especially Facebook audiences. You'll loose 50% just on the request for the plug-in install. Better solutions are out there, but there's no clear answer yet.

Been a while since you have looked at those stats huh? more like 20% if you are unlucky. I have no issue with games with Unity. Even if it was 50% who cares...How many would download a 600 meg client over a 1 meg plugin? 1%? So thats 49% more players than your version!
Besides why does everyone assume every developer wants to make a iphone game or a Facebook app? I am so sick of them being handed everything on a silver platter and the rest of us waiting in line.
I DO NOT want to build a facebook app or a iphone game. Good for a Mac that they can actually do more than design a website, doesn't mean I want to specially build anything for one. I want to build the same games I enjoy building and do well with. WEB GAMES!
Look at Battlestar Galactica, 100k users in first week, Unity Plugin with streaming. Look at Dark Orbit, 64 million users. Find me a client based game that has that.

I will leave it at that. I now see that even if you made the desicion tomorrow it would be months before anything was working as it sounds like you haven't even got started. Shame on you and I am surprised. I would think GG would know the Web is the future. Quake live is doing better than any PC FPS to date and once the flash support is fully in UDK the playing field will change tremendously.

Imagine trying to compete with that.
Play Game A built with Torque, download 1 gig client, then download patches, then get to play, then download patches every week or month...
Play Game B built with Unreal, Play now! No installation, save hard drive space! No patches!

Just please think about it some. Once again nothing against GG, still a fan and would MUCH MUCH rather use it than Unity but you leave me no choice. The second you think streaming to the web for instant Torque action is a bad idea is the second you are wrong. If Instant action flopped then it was the games, not the tech. You should have allowed more users the tech so there were more games.

#68 @Halls -

Wow, seems like we were both wrong about WOW. I remember the streaming version, but I just went to their site. First, I downloaded a 30mg installer. Then the installer started streaming. I quit after 3 gigs. The installer says 10.47 GB required.

Isn't Dark Orbit Flash? Do you know how Battlestar Galactica is doing? Last I heard they there were suggesting 2MM players of their 150MM community.

I'm glad you are a fan of GG, we need guys like you around. I'm not trying to say web isn't important. And while I do think web is a big part of the future, I don't think another 3rd party plug-in is the answer.

Here's what I can promise. If we are going to release something beyond what we have for with our existing web deployment, it will be driven by your needs. We aren't going to just cobble something together. Having said that, we won't have it in a few months either.

#69 Remember flash is third party. Regardless of how popular it is it is a plugin. BS has 6.3 million registered users, not sure how many are concurrent but hey, 6.3 million is pretty sweet.
Interstellar Marines is also a streaming Unity game with serveral thousand players. Had it been a client onlt it would have never have gotten 10% of that.
Begone is a massively multiplayer web game made with unity using streaming and the photon server with thousands of players, once again, the option of playing instantly allowed them to gain thousands of players in no time.
How about maids of marion?? Silly game..no goofy game but millions of players because no download play right through client, using shockwave.
Quake live is OLD quake but has thousands of players because it is instant. Is a blast. Would I or anyone else re download it or re-install it? Hard to compete with no download or no patches.

Seems the WOW client I found is a thrid part for Emus :) Regardless I am not making WOW nor do I compare much to it. Not a fan.

I apreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions. To me that is a HUGE change from the last I was here poking around. I guess I will disapear some more until there is a web solution closer on the horizon. If you can mix Torque with webGL or HTML5 then you might have something. No plugin would shoot you above the crowd very quickly. Just don't fart around and wait too late. ;)

Thanks again


PS. This is not a all praise Unity thread for I am not a fan of Unity. The networking is pretty bad.

#70 There are benefits over having a solution like this. Multiple servers for one, many more connections. I did mention this to Mich, as more and more services like www.onlive.com are accepting games under NDA with SDK kits. What's the deal with using Torque with this tech, licencing wise?

edit: perhaps if a streaming solution is not going to happen any time soon, or may not happen at all. It would be good if you could open the licencing for us devs to use 3rd party tech if it's not mentioned specifically, taking it way beyond what Steam/Direct2Drive are doing for distribution with the benefit of playing the game on your pc/mac/tv/mobile device without any downloads. Also, Do we still have Torque 360 available as a licencing option, or is Torque 3D mainly PC/MAC these days?

#71

Quote:Remember flash is third party

Agreed. But it, and maybe Silverlight are the exception. My Mom knows what flash is ;)

Anyways, thanks for the information.

We had been collaborating with MS on Silverlight 3D, but after this years build, I'm not so sure that's the right path. There is potential there, but I think I have eight or so different NDAs with MS so I can't really say anything.

Onlive and Gaikai are both very cool, but expensive. Unless they think you are going to do huge volume, I don't expect you will hear back from Onlive. Others I've talked to haven't. Gaikai will support you, but it's pricey (and rightfully so). For an indie, the only Gaikai option is to use their service to deliver a preview with the hopes that someone will download your game.

Quote:or may not happen at all

It will happen, just not right away. We will be able to share a better roadmap with the community in the next two quarters or so.

I don't have any problem with you building your own web support. If you want me to provide you something in writing, let me know.

#72 Thanks for the reply Eric. I'm in no hurry, but it's good to know that it will happen at some stage. I looked at OnLive just to see what all the fuss is about and to see if it was a future, but viable option for heading down this route.

I was going to look into creating a 3rd party solution for Torque that could be sold in the GG store, but have enough to deal with at the moment. I'll consider it in the next few weeks once I know what my workload is going to be like, and have yet to look into the legal aspects of using flash for this purpose, and of course any conflicts with any work you may be doing or looking at.

#73 why not html5 video?

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5_video

HTML5 can sometimes be used as an alternative to Adobe Flash.[1] Both include features for playing audio and video within web pages, and using integrated SVG, vector graphics are possible with both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_HTML5_and_Flash

Steve Jobs issued a public letter titled "Thoughts on Flash" where he concludes that Adobe "Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content" and that "new open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win".

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2010/05/14/html5-vs-flash-what-you-havent-heard/
Games, games, games!
If you think of all the Flash games out there and the number of people playing them, then Flash is now actually one of the biggest gaming platforms in the world!
That�s all well and good for browser gaming, but now, with the arrival of the HTML5 canvas element on the scene, game developers can now do the same things in HTML5 that Flash games are doing, right? After all, with HTML5 we can now do all sorts of neat stuff like this sweet space shooter game and even run ID Software�s classic Quake II 3D game! With this in mind, DHTML will supplant Flash as the medium for creating casual browser games, surely?
Well, not just yet. Flash has so many things going for it right now that can�t be easily replicated in HTML5:

http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/06/who-needs-flash-new-webgl-and-html5-browser-game-sets-trons-light-cycles-in-3d/
WebGL, which was officially released in March, is a graphics library that basically extends the functionality of JavaScript to allow it to create interactive 3D graphics within ye olde browser. As a cross-platform API within the context of HTML5, it brings 3D graphics to the Web without using plug-ins. WebGL is managed and developed by The Khronos Group, a non-profit consortium of companies like Google, Apple, Intel, Mozilla, and more, dedicated to creating open standard APIs through which to display digital interactive media — across all platforms and devices

#74

Quote:why not html5 video?

Because video is not games.

Sounds to me like this is something else they should probably remove from their product description, or modify the product description to be more accurate. While it may be technically true that you can deploy a game to the web with T3D, this deployment path to the web is not what the majority of users would expect when comparing game engine features.

We've been hearing a lot about how the new GG is trying to be more open and honest with their user base, and not make the same mistakes the previous owners have made. But false or misleading claims and unfulfilled promises were the biggest problems with all of the previous owners, and these claims of Mac and Web deployment paths on the product page for T3D, while there is no currently operational Mac deployment path and none coming in the foreseeable future, and the Web deployment path is mostly pointless in it's current form, is really just more of the same. People are going to buy T3D thinking they are getting these features, and they're going to be pissed when they find out they're really not.

I've always been one of the bigger supporters of Torque, and I will likely continue to do be, but I've got to be honest here too. I work out my own Mac deployment and don't have a whole lot of interest in Web deployment, so I'm not really worried about all of this from my own perspective. But if you guys really want to repair your image in the community at large, actions speak louder than words... except when those words are product feature descriptions for your flagship product that are straddling the line between misleading and fraudulent.

#75

Quote:
Deploy any Torque 3D project to the web in minutes with our web publishing option. Torque 3D supports all major browsers and your title performs as a native application.

Quote:
The web has fast become one of the most important marketplaces for new and established developers. With Facebook, MySpace, and Kongregate leading the way in the new social media market, being able to deploy to web browsers is an important target for your games. Torque 3D provides browser-based deployment out of the box.

When you deploy to the web, you can play the game directly in the browser with the same performance level as the desktop application. Torque 3D supports all major browsers including IE, Firefox, Chrome, and Safari.

So let me post the language directly in here before we use words like fraud. Do you really think these words are fraudulent? (may be hard to tell my tone, but I'm sincerely asking)

We do have web publishing and you can in fact do it in minutes. I think the part everyone feels is misleading is streaming right? Would a disclaimer regarding streaming solve your concerns?

Mac has been a real disappointment for me. I really thought by now we would have our guy. I am going to make sure we put disclaimers by any mention of Mac as well.

Gerald, I can assure you, it is our intention to maintain trust with our current and future customers. It's not always easy, but keep our ears open to threads like this is part of the process.

#76 Eric,

Sorry I was sort of combining 2 issues there. I wouldn't say the part about web deployment is fraudulent, and fraudulent is probably a little strong in any case, but I meant this (mostly) untrue statement:

Quote:With deployment paths to PC, Mac, Xbox 360, Wii, and the web, you have the power to distribute games wherever they are played.

Specifically, the Mac deployment path that doesn't exist (unless you do it yourself). I don't know about you, but when I look at the list of features of an engine, - or any product - I generally expect to see what I'm getting if I purchase it right now.

The part about Web deployment is just misleading. Though I'm sure your intention is not to fool people, I'm equally sure that a lot of people will read that language and feel misled when they discover that Web deployment consists of downloading and installing the entire game along with a plugin to play it in the browser.

I think perhaps a Technical FAQ, linked to from the product page, would be a good idea. i.e.:

Q. Does Torque3D support content streaming?

A. Not currently. [Insert reassuring explanation here.]

[Other technical questions that are common points of contention or confusion.]

It would be a much more reasonable place to expect to find such information than having to wade through a bunch of blogs, or spending your money and learning the hard way.

I would also remove Mac from the list of deployment paths, and maybe write something like "Mac OSX deployment coming soon!" under it. Though soon is debatable, at least they will know they're not going to get it right now, but also know that you understand that Mac is a relevant gaming platform and are trying to do something about it, so they won't dismiss it out of hand.

#77 Maybe I can help you on the Mac side. I know the Mac platform inside and out now. I have a currently working Mac platform implementation that I hacked from the old code a while back, but I plan on refactoring it now on 1.1F to take advantage of all of the latest OSX technology and best-practices that I've been submerged in the last couple of years.

I won't be trading Miami for Vegas and I don't get out of bed before noon, so I'm not applying for a job. But if you don't have a solid Mac guy by the time I finish this refactor, I'm sure something can be worked out ;)

#78 Since we are talking of different platform deployment, is deployment to Wii still supported? I could load up T3D and check, but am not on the home laptop at the moment.

#79 I do not think it is fraudulant but misleading yes. It mislead me into buying T3D. I don't think you truly understand how pointless non streaming is.

It is like me going to a Tractor selling store and looking for a front end loader. A tractor with a big bucket on front that I can dig a hole with and move the dirt. The tag on the tractor says "Dig a hole and move the dirt away from any job". So I buy the tractor then get it home and notice the front end bucket doesnt actually move but the tractor does drive. So I go back the store and say "Hey whats up! I got to dig a hole but the bucket doesn't move. Your ad says dig a hole and move the dirt."
The salesman says, "now wait, it does not dig the hole for you, you dig the hole then place the dirt in the bucket then drive the tractor away from your job and offload the dirt by hand. "
" Well thats useless!" I say
" Um no it is not, you can still move the dirt, the tractor runs, and our ad says exactly that"

While yeah it does work in a archaic way it is in itself useless in the same way the tractor is, yet the tractor still works.

Quote:We do have web publishing and you can in fact do it in minutes.

Trust me, I could not hit the deploy button on a 800 meg project then upload it to the site within minutes. Takes longer than that to upload a 800 meg file but that would not change even if it had streaming. You are using misplaced flair to cover up the fact there is nothing special here.


Now I think you are absolutley silly, even crazy, for not adding in streaming even with a plugin. Unity is kicking butt and taking names and since Unreal released upcoming flash deployment their community and site has been buzzing! What happens when all these games using Hero(for free) can deploy to the web WITH a plugin? You are shrinking your potential user base everyday you wait. I deploy from engines requiring a plugin and people don't care. They are happy to download a 1 meg plugin over a 800 meg game. You can stand around and wait for a pluginless solution but trust me by then it will be too late.

#80 @Gerald - I would absolutely consider you for a contract position. E-mail me so we could talk about the potential ericp@garagegames.com.

Quote:Web deployment consists of downloading and installing the entire game along with a plugin to play it in the browser

Well, honestly, that's all other systems do as well. The only different between what Unity and us, aside from maybe some polish, is the streaming. Edit: the fact that the games is bundled with the plugin is different as well...this is an artifact of the InstantAction team not wanting a Torque user to write a virus that would blacklist the IA plugin.

Quote:I don't think you truly understand how pointless non streaming is

I actually wrote the steaming prototype that InstantAction used to pitch to the big studios(Ubisoft, Blizzard, EA, and others). That system was independent of the engine which is really nice...however, it's a really, really, expensive system to build correctly. What is needed, is streaming built into the engine. That way it is spatially aware. We are working towards that. But it's a fundamental change. It's similar to taking a single-threaded engine and adding multi-threading.

So I would challenge the thought that we don't think it's important. I would turn it around and ask if you know how hard it is to implement. That's the friction, not our desire to have it.

@Andy - Yes, we still have the Wii port. But I'll be honest with you, it's not producitzed for non-professional teams. Also, since it's sold in really low volumes, it's expensive. We haven't sold a license this year. Developer demand for Wii is really low. I had two customers before shutdown. One, was an indie who was pissed that we sold it to him without providing free support. The other was a professional developer who said the engine was in rough shape, but that it saved them tens of thousands of dollars and they felt like it was a great deal.

I gave the indie 25% of his money back and told him he could use the money to pay for support or he could put it in his pocket and walk away.