Why WAS Torque3D documentation so poor?
by Dark Tengu · in Torque 3D Professional · 03/02/2010 (6:38 pm) · 442 replies
I would really like to get back into Torque, but I am finding the documentation to be so poor. For example, where is the explanation of callbacks? If I remember correctly, callbacks are HIGHLY important in Torque. Its great that there is an explanation of Torque syntax, but honestly synatax is VERY easy to figure out for anyone who has done even a little C/C++.
Perhaps I am just missing the quality documentation, any help would be appreciated. The only documentation regarding Torque3D I have found is at the following link:
http://docs.torquepowered.com/torque-3d/official/index.html
Moderator Edit - You can download the draft version of the T3D Script Manual by clicking here
Perhaps I am just missing the quality documentation, any help would be appreciated. The only documentation regarding Torque3D I have found is at the following link:
http://docs.torquepowered.com/torque-3d/official/index.html
Moderator Edit - You can download the draft version of the T3D Script Manual by clicking here
#82
I really don't think paying for documentation is realistic. Tutorials yes, documentation no way. When was the last time you had to pay for the documentation to some software?
03/08/2010 (9:46 am)
Quote:With respect to Torque - I would be willing to PAY for quality documentation and/or training if needs be.
I really don't think paying for documentation is realistic. Tutorials yes, documentation no way. When was the last time you had to pay for the documentation to some software?
#83
So what happens to the "full-time" documentation guy?
03/08/2010 (10:48 am)
Quote:
I've been talking to Michael, who we just made a full time rep for ed. I've given him the challenge of finding better ways to provide value to the educators using our products.
So what happens to the "full-time" documentation guy?
#84
Did we just take a few steps backwards in the fight for documentation? lol!
03/08/2010 (11:06 am)
Quote:So what happens to the "full-time" documentation guy?
Did we just take a few steps backwards in the fight for documentation? lol!
#85
The bottom line is that we are currently under-staffed. The good news is that we have a hiring budget and this is an area we are planning to staff ( along with QA, usability, and product managers ).
We haven't had a full time docs guy since I started in January. I'm accountable for the lack of docs since the beginning of the year -I relied a lot of Michael over the past two months since he is one of the better internal champions of the community and I wanted your voice heard in our strategy discussions. We've consumed production time in the interest of a stronger focus on customer experience and retention for the future.
Prior to then, the issue was one of a direction more focused on acquisition than retention. We've spent the past two months working on new strategies, schedules, and of course, GDC. Those plans are now being put into motion.
Our planning work; however, isn't done. Addressing needs won't happen over night. I wish it could. Many of the claims in this thread are valid. Many will be nearly impossible for us to reasonably accommodate in the near term.
If we continue to listen to you, and you continue to stand by us, I'm confident we will converge toward a direction where this community provides, hands down, the best foundation for people like you who want to do great things with our engine.
03/08/2010 (11:19 am)
@Joe Take a look at post #53 for some more context.The bottom line is that we are currently under-staffed. The good news is that we have a hiring budget and this is an area we are planning to staff ( along with QA, usability, and product managers ).
We haven't had a full time docs guy since I started in January. I'm accountable for the lack of docs since the beginning of the year -I relied a lot of Michael over the past two months since he is one of the better internal champions of the community and I wanted your voice heard in our strategy discussions. We've consumed production time in the interest of a stronger focus on customer experience and retention for the future.
Prior to then, the issue was one of a direction more focused on acquisition than retention. We've spent the past two months working on new strategies, schedules, and of course, GDC. Those plans are now being put into motion.
Our planning work; however, isn't done. Addressing needs won't happen over night. I wish it could. Many of the claims in this thread are valid. Many will be nearly impossible for us to reasonably accommodate in the near term.
If we continue to listen to you, and you continue to stand by us, I'm confident we will converge toward a direction where this community provides, hands down, the best foundation for people like you who want to do great things with our engine.
#86
03/08/2010 (11:20 am)
Oh... Ha... The ed guy is a different Michael. Michael P vs. Michael B. Sorry! 
#87
03/08/2010 (11:37 am)
Hehe, I was just about to say I was pretty sure you were referring to another Michael. 
#88
Keep that direction!
03/08/2010 (1:35 pm)
Eric, reading your posts in this thread has been cool. Honest and clear claims. Your last two paragraphs sintetize the best possible scenario :)Keep that direction!
#89
03/09/2010 (12:20 am)
I find it so sad that we are begging for documentation over here while Unity is getting a major update. We beg for documentation and they get Beast Lightmapping, Audio Magic, and Umbra built in.
#90
Way to go to derail a thread, uh?
Unity its just another tool, if its better for your needs, just go with it. Here? We want and **need** to keep the conversation within the limits of constructiveness. Thanks.
03/09/2010 (6:00 am)
"Audio Magic"...? You even use their marketing speech, lol. Thats an announcement btw, with no dates yet, so...Way to go to derail a thread, uh?
Unity its just another tool, if its better for your needs, just go with it. Here? We want and **need** to keep the conversation within the limits of constructiveness. Thanks.
#91
You could have it that only license owner can download the videos. For example "how - to" create a basic third person shooter, have video access in the private forum for licensed users to access.
Just an idea!
03/09/2010 (6:40 am)
I've been finding UDK tutorials and docs all over the place. Just a suggestion, how about taking note on what they are doing and do "how - to" videos and doc on T3D! You could have it that only license owner can download the videos. For example "how - to" create a basic third person shooter, have video access in the private forum for licensed users to access.
Just an idea!
#92
One of the biggest advantages of a business like GG setting up a forum is the ability to swiftly brows feedback and adapt, rather than being reactive to other companies' innovations. We need to focus on HOW to solve the problem with GG, rather than complain that the competition does X better.
For one, I would suggest that GG take advantage of university and college students for QA and assistance with the docs. Not just at Full Sail, but around the world. Distance internships would allow many students to help GG with, I would imagine, several goals. And while unpaid are less desirable to students, it's free labor for you!
03/09/2010 (7:59 am)
I think at this point we've heard the strategy GG plans to take regarding docs, and it seems like a waste of time and space to continually beat on what other engines are doing. There are more than a few posts about "UDK has this...Unity has this..." I think the point has been made that other engines have better docs. I think from now on we should avoid any more discussion on them and use that effort to help brainstorm ideas on how a better set of docs can be created quickly. One of the biggest advantages of a business like GG setting up a forum is the ability to swiftly brows feedback and adapt, rather than being reactive to other companies' innovations. We need to focus on HOW to solve the problem with GG, rather than complain that the competition does X better.
For one, I would suggest that GG take advantage of university and college students for QA and assistance with the docs. Not just at Full Sail, but around the world. Distance internships would allow many students to help GG with, I would imagine, several goals. And while unpaid are less desirable to students, it's free labor for you!
#94
we appreciate you giving your honest opinion here. heres mine:
If GarageGames wants to charge premium prices for their tech, then their customers deserve to get proper documentation showing how to use the tech. We're not talking about the difference between average and great documentation, we're talking about a lack of documentation so severe its effectively preventing a large portion of their newer customer base from using the product to create anything.
until this gaping hole in their tech is recognized and rectified, customers can and should do whatever it takes to detail their issues with Torque3d, even if it includes mentioning what other companies have done which seems to have worked. these are helpful responses as well. please dont diminish these responses or attempt to redirect the focus of this thread.
I disagree. garage games is a business and we are their customers. unless you receive a paycheck from GarageGames we shouldnt have to be concerned with figuring out how to fix their problems. of course we can choose to help out, and most people here do, however, we should not feel community service is the only way we're going to get documentation. our only true responsibility is to report issues as we see them, and their responsibility is to take actions they see appropriate. We have fulfilled our part by making the issue crystal clear. We are still waiting to see what actions garage games is going to take to address the documentation issue.
03/10/2010 (6:40 pm)
Quote:
I think at this point we've heard the strategy GG plans to take regarding docs, and it seems like a waste of time and space to continually beat on what other engines are doing.
we appreciate you giving your honest opinion here. heres mine:
If GarageGames wants to charge premium prices for their tech, then their customers deserve to get proper documentation showing how to use the tech. We're not talking about the difference between average and great documentation, we're talking about a lack of documentation so severe its effectively preventing a large portion of their newer customer base from using the product to create anything.
until this gaping hole in their tech is recognized and rectified, customers can and should do whatever it takes to detail their issues with Torque3d, even if it includes mentioning what other companies have done which seems to have worked. these are helpful responses as well. please dont diminish these responses or attempt to redirect the focus of this thread.
Quote:
We need to focus on HOW to solve the problem with GG, rather than complain that the competition does X better.
I disagree. garage games is a business and we are their customers. unless you receive a paycheck from GarageGames we shouldnt have to be concerned with figuring out how to fix their problems. of course we can choose to help out, and most people here do, however, we should not feel community service is the only way we're going to get documentation. our only true responsibility is to report issues as we see them, and their responsibility is to take actions they see appropriate. We have fulfilled our part by making the issue crystal clear. We are still waiting to see what actions garage games is going to take to address the documentation issue.
#95
If you are so kind to read the thread you'll find a few posts by Eric describing the situation. So GG recognizes the problems, and introduced the propossed workarounds. Those solutions, luckily, involve serious work and long term thinking.
So no, at this point, "mentioning what other companies have done" is not really helpful, specially in the way it was done, no matter how dialectically decorated you want to put it.
03/10/2010 (7:47 pm)
Thats not the point.If you are so kind to read the thread you'll find a few posts by Eric describing the situation. So GG recognizes the problems, and introduced the propossed workarounds. Those solutions, luckily, involve serious work and long term thinking.
So no, at this point, "mentioning what other companies have done" is not really helpful, specially in the way it was done, no matter how dialectically decorated you want to put it.
#96
They have recognized the problem for years, but we haven't had a solution yet. Nobody gets an award for recognizing something, you only get it by doing something. I'll be happy when they just do it. They seem to be the only ones having a problem with it.
03/10/2010 (7:54 pm)
Quote:GG recognizes the problems
They have recognized the problem for years, but we haven't had a solution yet. Nobody gets an award for recognizing something, you only get it by doing something. I'll be happy when they just do it. They seem to be the only ones having a problem with it.
#97
We all know GG has been through deep changes in the past year or so, and T3D is the better proof of that. They need time, they cannot just hire 200 hundred people and expect to solve things magically.
Im as much hungry for this things to get solved as anyone else, but frankly Im more of the opinion of complaining when is the moment for it, but also supporting when the moment requires. Nothing good will magically happen by compaining permanently, specially if you let the frustration blind constructive thinking.
Bottom line is, whatever is going to happen, you have guaranteed better results by sometimes offering your shoulder, than always throwing stones.
03/10/2010 (8:06 pm)
Well, yes, but thats kind of out of context.We all know GG has been through deep changes in the past year or so, and T3D is the better proof of that. They need time, they cannot just hire 200 hundred people and expect to solve things magically.
Im as much hungry for this things to get solved as anyone else, but frankly Im more of the opinion of complaining when is the moment for it, but also supporting when the moment requires. Nothing good will magically happen by compaining permanently, specially if you let the frustration blind constructive thinking.
Bottom line is, whatever is going to happen, you have guaranteed better results by sometimes offering your shoulder, than always throwing stones.
#98
it really needs to start cooking by GG. another month will pass by, and we will still be complaing, and GG will still be posting we know that and we are working on it,
so far its been more than a week and no tangible solution at least for the API docs, which I dont thing it requires 6 months to accoumplish.
nor it does require to be completely done to be release, IMO. we can get advancements on the API and adding more to it as it gets done.
03/11/2010 (10:04 am)
Well, what ever it is we are hungry for, docs, tutorials,minigames, api info, etc..it really needs to start cooking by GG. another month will pass by, and we will still be complaing, and GG will still be posting we know that and we are working on it,
so far its been more than a week and no tangible solution at least for the API docs, which I dont thing it requires 6 months to accoumplish.
nor it does require to be completely done to be release, IMO. we can get advancements on the API and adding more to it as it gets done.
#99
03/11/2010 (5:38 pm)
I have been going through some of the older resources that were more applicable to TGE/TGEA. I have specifically been looking through the PDF file that came on the Game Programmer's Guide to Torque. Quite a solid effort, very informative, but still lacking some major additions. I have only used it to compare to main.cs and there are massive holes. Might be a good starting place, but docs are needed soon. Like others have said, this shouldn't be a project that would take months to complete. I feel like I make some headway, but hit wall after wall.
#100
03/11/2010 (9:26 pm)
@pilot - it's GDC week. All resources are consumed for the event. GDC is quite a distraction -but it's part of the business. 
Employee Eric Preisz
GarageGames
I don't want to derail the blog too much, but let me quickly answer your question. ( and to the other, thanks for the feedback, it's been very useful reading your responses )
A tiered support system is something we are just beginning to work on. In my opinion, the lack of a support system is one of the reasons why we don't have enough big titles to show for in our portfolio.
In regards to education, it's an area that I am particularly interested in. I've been talking to Michael, who we just made a full time rep for ed. I've given him the challenge of finding better ways to provide value to the educators using our products. Expect him to be reaching out to those using our products in the near future.
In a prior life, I was a Department Chair and Professor teaching game optimization (btw..I haven't had a chance to get my optimization tools on our engines yet-I can't wait). I think I have a decent understanding of your needs.