Why WAS Torque3D documentation so poor?

#321 @Caylo - How many years am I required to give them? Is a decade enough? I would also argue that Unity Pro is by far a better product. Torque has some of the most critical users of ANY engine I have every used. 99% of the people who I <em>personally</em> know, love Unity. I would love to be able to buy Unity Pro, but my wife won't let me drop the cash on it. Unfortunately, I dropped the cash on Torque3D and I am at the mercy of GarageGames for the time being.

#322 It is true that TorquePowered / GarageGames have been erroneous in multiple ways over the last few years. It often seems impossible for them to say what they mean and stick to it, constantly talking bigger then they have action for. As far as meeting deadline expectations go, i have a very low opinion of them; but that opinion is built from someone who often spend 20 hour work days for weeks in a row working hard to keep deadlines.

TorquePowered / GarageGames have replied thoughtfully to each and every bitch and moan voiced over the last few month, back in the TGEA days they seldom bothered to debate such matters of opinion. They promise they are aware of the problems the community has been so helpful to point out, and are working very hard on solutions. Give them some time.

Unity is evolving very well, and at an accelerated rate. It would be true sweet irony if their T3D contender takes less time and is far more polished once it is the same age that T3D is now.

And back on thread topic; I still do not understand much of the complaining about T3D docs, other then not having something done to support the silly Torque 3D 1.0.1 release (what truly should have been another beta).

#323 - I hope 1.1final hits the true 1.0 mark.

Feel offended by this? ..read the bug forums and come to reality.

#324 @ Caylo - I have to agree with Jon. Just because they've come out with some half-decent docs for their other engines does not excuse the fact that they have released their flagship engine with no real usable docs, multiple times. TGEA and T3D are the most prominent examples.

Just because Eric and Mich have responded to this threadnought and made more promises, doesn't mean that things have changed. Is it a step in the right direction? 100% yes. Does it make things all better and forgive the past almost-decade? Absolutely not.

Honestly it's like being with a significant other that you love, but has so many bad qualities that you're going to leave them. The only reason you don't is because they keep saying, "No, I can change, I promise!" There are only two options in situations like that: they show you change in copious amounts, or you leave them and move on.

Wait...did I just compare a game engine to a crazy girlfriend? I think things might be a little awkward now.

#325

Quote:In the video and my comments in this thread, I'm talking about the effort to finish up the TS Manual (CHM).

Ok, thanks. When can we expect complete documentation then? 1.1 final or sometime after that?

#326 How does one know when docs are complete? I think they will need to constantly evolve, get better, and react to the changing software. I think we need to define solid baseline for 1.1 and deliver on that.

#327 [quote]I still do not understand much of the complaining about T3D docs, other then not having something done to support the silly Torque 3D 1.0.1 release (what truly should have been another beta). [/qutoe]

@Caylo: The problem is that binary users don't have enough to even start a project. You have basic math and stuff, but that's mostly it.

[offtopic /\]

@Eric: Are we still looking forward to 1.1 being released for binary users with documentation? Is there a possible release month in the works or are things still progressing along and it's still TBA? Either way, on the release date, I'm still patiently waiting for it.

[another offtopic \/]

@All: As of yet they have not lied about the new release, and I don't think they will.

#328 Personally I could care less about documentation. If docs become a hold up factor for a new release version I'd much rather see a point release that contains the many fixes already alluded to in the forums.

#329 Docs are important to me, I'm starting with a new engine, and I'd prefer not to have to look through source to get functions.

#330 Glen, Michael's just stating that 1.1's release should not be held back so that the docs can ship along with it & I agree.

Otherwise, that would be like punishing us for having experience. heh

#331 I agree and I don't at the same time. It would be nice for those bug fixes, but those docs are also important.

If I had to choose though, I'd say release 1.1 first...that is with regrets though...

#332

Quote:How does one know when docs are complete?

I think a reasonable common sense answer to that would be something that explains all the features of the engine (at its current version); how to effectively use those features; how to use all the editors; what all the various fields, variables and options are within those editors, and examples of reasonable values to input into those fields and what those values will change; examples of good work flows to use those editors to achieve desired on-screen results...

It was already mentioned the TS docs will be complete so I won't go on about that.

I consider tutorials as not really part of the necessary docs but any and all of those will certainly be welcome.

I myself would love to see more written for and about the engines C++ code to help one navigate and understand the implementation of it within the engine, for one needing or wanting to modify things at that lower level ( I am not talking about lessons in C++ but something to help with understanding the program flow etc.).

Speaking for myself I am a programmer, as well as an artist, who has created shareware programs/games in the past, but I have had no formal professional training... and I am not asking for that... but anything which helps me get inside the engine programmers head to help me understand things to where I can move forward to modify it as I need or desire, without me having to read every single line of code would be great. (I know that the code includes comments but a slightly less daunting overview of the code implementation would help greatly.)

Quote:I think we need to define solid baseline for 1.1...

Please do so. Despite the obvious taciturn and shy nature of this community I am sure somebody will speak up if you leave out something important. ;)

I am sure what I mention above doesn't cover everything that most users here would consider a bare minimum for reasonable documentation. And I also don't consider it unreasonable to expect complete documentation for a game engine at the time when the final version is released. For example I don't think one should have to wait until version 1.3, or whatever, before complete 1.1 docs come out.


Thanks for listening.

#333

Quote:...that would be like punishing us for having experience.

So you think it would be more fair to punish one for having a lack of experience?

Or maybe you are of the opinion that the inexperienced have no business with a game engine like this? (note that this is a rhetorical question and also note the use of the word "maybe"... just so you don't think I am putting words in your mouth.) If so then the counter to that might be "If you are so experienced then why don't you create your own game engine."

Of course GG will have to find the proper balance, but I might suggest that one who is more experienced should perhaps be more understanding and have some compassion for the poor "newbs" with their concerns, considering that s/he was also once in that position.

#334 ..are you ok in the head ?

- HOW THE HELL DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT ? ..you're not right in the head bro.

I'll explain it for you:
if the engine is held back from release to wait for the docs, then those who d have experience would be losing time because of something they do not need. IN NO WAY can that be reversed to align with your assumption unless you live in bizarro world.

#335 Guys,

this thread is becoming tiresome :) the situation is clear and AI/GG people have pledged quite clearly about what's gonna be with the docs... you're beating a dead horse here :)

BTW I really appreciate that a thread like this one can go ahead without issues: many other companies would have deleted it and banned a few people. The way Eric & C. are dealing with this and other issues in the forums is just great. I have to thank and compliment them for granting this level of freedom within a business based comminity.

#336 I am also confident that GG will deliver (this time). Mostly because they really have to, the Game Engine world today is not the same anymore as it was when T3D was announced and later releases. The free unity as well as UDK took away many users for sure. I am not saying the grass is greener there, just that there are more options now, even more if you are a hobby dev. Yes, many guys that went to other engines maybe never will finish a game with them either, but each one over there is also one sale lost for GG. Just my two cents tough ;-).
Anyways, I am confident in GG, and to help me out with docs, I bought the two books by Edward maurina, which fill the gap for me at the moment quite well.

#337 It's a bit of a tangent, but I actually think the landscape of game development has changed significantly over the past 10 years.

When I started using Torque I had 5 years experience working with and building games engines. I was extremely happy with Torque ( TSE EA at the time ) event though it didn't haven't docs at all(this is a story I gave recently in another thread...sorry for the dupe). But that was my expectations since I spent several years working on engines with no docs. In fact, I still prefer to not use docs unless it is a closed API ( and I agree, our binary falls under that category ).

I think that as a space many engines have done a lot to lower the bar of experience to make simple games and I think that's awesome. We are only recently beginning to shift our focus from programmers to designers and artists and frankly we are behind the curve on that audience because we didn't react fast enough to this fundamental change. There are some big foundational changes needed to address those goals and some are in place and we ARE working on others; however, many of those changes haven't bubbled to the surface yet.

"If you are so experienced then why don't you create your own game engine."

That is what the industry has done for quite some time. Right now only around 10% of the industry uses 3rd party engines. The downside is that most of the people using their own engine have been building their own for over 15 years at a cost that is probably between 2 to 4 or more million dollars ( no joke, I helped build one for 2 in the early '00s )

Anyways, my point is...back in the day we catered to programmers and that was fine because almost everyone making games either was a programmer or relied on one. Times have changed.

#338 I'll be happy to explain it to you eb:

If the engine is released without docs, then those who have little or no experience would be losing time because of owning something they can't use until they get the proper documentation to show them how it can be used.

And expressing your assumptions that I am not right in the head or that I live in bizarro world because of the views I express here are inappropriate and add nothing to the discussion. Try to stick to the ideas and keep personal attacks out of it please.

#339 Personally I don't give a hoot about docs neither.
For me the most important thing is a fully functioned working demo that I can use as a sandbox and take to pieces to see how things work and should look when made by competent artistes.
Hopefully we will be getting exactly this with the Pacific demo in the next release.

#340 Thanks Eric. I appreciate your perspective and I don't disagree with any of it (not that I think you were posting it to somehow shoot down my perspectives or those of others here).

Quote:Times have changed.

Much for the better for many of us, who don't have unlimited financial support and/or free time and/or the expertise to create a game engine from the ground up. And yet because of companies like yours we can still get into something we feel passionate about and express ourselves in ways undreamed of only a few years ago... and to have the opportunity to potentially actually create something that can be shared with the world.