QuakeII Indie Platform

#41 Again with the GPL... here comes the circle...

It seems for some, there definately IS a spoon :)

-J

#42 Interesting post:

TuxRacer goes closed source
archives.seul.org/linuxgames/Aug-2001/msg00000.html

#43 Yup... there is nothing wrong with close sourcing where it makes sense. I wonder if it would have been worth close sourcing minus the open source effort on it? Who knows... and frankly I don't care.

Again, this discussion doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Torque. The Home of Independant Games and Game Makers has room, I would hope, for more than one approach.

My energy level is up, and I feel good about where this is all leading.

-J

#44 Another interesting post from one of the tuxracer developers

www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/2077/2001/10/0/6920769/

#45 From the same post:

"But I think that while I'm disappointed, whatever happens, if it remains commercial, I'll still buy it because I really like Tux Racer.."

Linux has it's own baggage to deal with... yeah, lots of linux users think EVERYTHING should be free. So what?

Anyway, this is obviously code-centric... last I checked most my market AREN'T programmers and could give a rat's ass about Open Source/Closed Source logistics... they just want a fun game.

Open Source/Closed Source is a secondary issue... an easy one to fixate on though.

-J

#46 Here's a possible scenario:

GG changes the license for Torque from $100 closed source to a dual free / standard license. If you develop a commercial title of any sort using TGE (including the "pay for content" scemes) you have to buy a standard license. Wouldn't this stand in INCREASE the profit made on TGE?

Right now GG wants to make money on TGE. As I see it there are a handful of types of people involved:

1) Those that buy TGE and make a game.
2) Those that buy TGE and never make a game.
3) Those that don't buy TGE because of lack of features.
4) Those that don't buy TGE because of the price .
5) Those that don't buy TGE because of the license.

Opening up the licenses loses group #2 and hence a source of revenue. But the progress that could be made in the engine by leveraging open source developers could increase the value of the engine as well as make it more desireable to work with.

The only real difference between what GG is doing now and what they'd be doing then is that they'd lose money from people who never write games.

Let me stress this. I don't think TGE should be given away from free no strings attached. I do think it could benefit from some openness. I'm not some young kid with dreams of an ideal world where all source is free, I just happen to think that in some cases it can and does make sense to open up the source code when you stand to reap huge rewards for "free".

#47 Donvan,

Restrictive licenses are a key to making $$$ with Open Source code... people pay money to get something, in this case, one thing is to lift the restrictions. Your other points are excellent.

Anyway, I don't foresee see any movement on this... so MY free work goes elsewhere.

I'll simply have to barter here.

-J

#48 I'm sorry for derailing this thread into a GPL debate. We need two threads: Quake 2: technical and Quake 2: licensing. This would probably be the licensing one ;)

#49 like most debates involving the GPL/LGPL it is degrading to one party telling another party what is best for them/what to do.

that's bs in any arena.

Josh your argument that gamers don't care what license it's under brings up a good point, namely that every successful company that utilizies the GPL would have succeeded anyway, they just got more 'cool' points.

I like the arguments given for and against, I just really cringe when I see someone that doesn't have a stake (meaning stock, share of profits or an employee) of a company telling them what to do, no personal offense meant at all, I respect the GPL in an academic area I just don't think it belongs in commercial land and even if it did, I would never deign to tell anyone they should use it.

Remember that also the point of every company and corporation on the planet is to make money, if (insert whatever MegaCorp#78574 here) could get away with it, they'd string people upside down above over giant vacuum cleaners and suck all their money while they hang upside down in droves watch porn-laced advertisements drooling like sheep. The concept of the GPL is in direct opposition to the very fabric of our society. Most business entities utilizing the GPL do so to sucker more loyalty out of 'fans', or 'be cool'. They still want your money. They are just slicker about it. The GPL is the result of the argument, it is a conclusion missing facts, it is a model that caters to the consumer and forgets about the producer/programmer, it is empty, unproven and while portions of it are thought out very well, it lacks the big picture. It would have all coders living on dog scraps creating software for 'the good of all mankind', and like the government model it resembles, it's equality for all.. cept the 3 or 4 guys at the top.




-brad

#50 Actually, this is all very interesting... threads are called threads for a reason I suppose... the reason I posted this in the 1st place was to present where my thoughts were leading... and to help solidify them.

Everyone has reasons for what the believe and we don't all have to follow in a line.

I am a bit frustrated with the state of things around here. I am not one to sit idle about my frustration.

Interestingly enough Nebula 2.0 looks like it is being released today. Last I checked, Radon Labs was into making games... saw this conduit, went BSD.. and are rolling stuff from the community back into their games.

-J

#51 Nebula is not GPL, as you say it is BSD, a different animal and a different discussion altogether.

a damned fine thing it is too.

-brad

#52 Different licenses for different reasons... proprietary licenses also have their reasons... and it all makes sense.

I need different technology/licenses for different situations. This has become clear.

-J

#53 yeah, but as I stated before, you don't own torque, it's like picking a color of paint for your neighbors car.

respectfully

brad

#54 Yup. Alright, work... enough contortions for Sunday morning.

-J

#55 My lasting appeal on the GPL software is if you need this much convincing you should probably stay away from GPL. It's the same way with telling windows users about linux...you can generally tell within the first 5 minutes if they will ever try it enough... cause if they are still looking for proof its better or whatever after 5 minutes, they don't want to leave windows.

Once my game is finished and I sell it I can give you an example of an indie game thats GPL. My first game is not a good example because I made many mistakes both technical and advertising wise. But i have repeated none of those. My first game sold 10 copies and I lost nothing from it being GPL. (I actually gained 200 bucks since I didnt have to buy a commercial license) It also was not very popular because like I said I made some mistakes so its hard to really tell if there is a difference.

-Tim aka Spock

#56 Tim, so don't you want to share this former experience with us (in another thread, of course)? I'd like to hear your 'post mortem' if you don't mind.

About Quake2, it was my choice before hearing about Torque from a slashdot reader. Joshua's main point is #10, in my opinion. If you are so used to Q2 source code, it's definitely the right engine for you.

#57 Alright, well I don't want to be thought of as "The Open Source" guy, though at this point I don't know if there is anything to do about that.

I need to rectify my work and the technology I am using... it's pretty simple really... it has just become harder and harder for me to do this.

The frustration I feel is very intense, it's likely proportionate to how much I care.

-J

#58 Adib Murad: I just posted one in my latest .plan. Whenver it shows up (I think they have to be approved now)

#59 @Joshua: So are you moving away from Torque for ActionRPG? Or is this discussion for a different project entirely?

#60 Mike,

I may launch a game project, still chewing. Everything needs to scale down a bit. You'll notice Massively Multiplayer is out of my vocabulary, and has been replaced with 3d MUD for instance :)

-J