Where are the programmers?

#1 I'm here, but I need a position that pays now, not one that pays royalties. Sorry :P

#2 Theoretical question...

If you spend 6 months job searching, and find nothing or just 1 or 2 small contracts, Is it not better to be doing *somthing* while looking and in 6-8 months start getting some real money in AND keep searching? Hey, I still have my day job.

#3 Essentially the problem is this: for no money, why work on someone elses idea instead of your own? If you can answer that question convincingly, you may find some people to help you.

#4 I share your pain buddy. I found one by the grace of God. It is not an easy task, and most of these guys know they are good. I wish you luck man. Keep trying. I posted on the planet Torque forums with no success, but maybe you can convince some people there...

#5 Why work on someone elses...instead of your own? Simple answer. Experience. It's why I joined other teams before launching my own company 2 yrs ago. I'd rather spend my time waiting, working on a team and learning than going the loner route and just being bored and frusterated. You make friends and contacts this way too. Also, as part of a team that's already going somewhere, instead of moving the proverbial boulder and starting our own project, you're more assured you'll be part of something that'll get completed and be successfull.

#6 LOL dont you understand? If you need them to code for you theyre not going to do anything they wouldnt be learning from anyways. D.I.Y. - DO it Yourself. If you really like video games and the creative process, youll learn how to code you games yourself. Programmers arent pokemon, but most of them are extremely intellegent. Dont try to get people to work for you, try and get them to work with you. And if you arent qualified to finish a game single handedly DONT LEAD A PROJECT (just study).

#7 I came to my point from the route of Level Designer. Not everyone that has the talent to be a Game Designer or Producer comes purly from the ranks of Programmers. I view it as a strength to know what your limits are. I'm good at level or world creation, I'm good at miniscule design detailing...but I'm just not good at juggling code in my head. But I'm not going to sit there and say that I should remain a Level Designer forever just because I can't write complex code.

Knowing how to build and work with and manage a team is essential in making modern games. If you want to make do-it-yourself games, they generally won't be as good as they could be if you built them with a team...unless they are so utterly simple that my old 386 could run it. (Take Bejeweled for example...puzzle game.)

So, at any rate, thankyouverymuch for patronizing me and my attempt to find some reason in here. Independent games mean independent from needing a traditional publisher to make them, not that we have do them alone. I still wish people would start less of these projects that are started and almost immediatly given up on, or put on hold indef because of real life, when they could join a team, contribute to some degree or another(One or two hours a day won't kill anyone!), and get a completed porject on their resum

#8 Tim I don't think you could have said it better.

This post stands out from the one million other posts like it because: Someone with "experience" and "founder of a 2 year old company" can't find one programmer to work with, but is offering people that work with him the chance to "make contacts" and "be part of something thats going somewhere" (with no programmers).

Sorry this is just funny on so many levels...not trying to poke (too much) fun.

GG is littered with people that want to make games and thats great, but it seems most don't understand the "food chain". Project leaders (people asking you to join their project) and their credibility would break down to something like this in my mind:

Programmers
Scripters
Modelers
Mappers
Texture Artists
Writers

This (to me) is the hiearchy of dev teams. Of course most people don't conform to just one category, but this is a list of who is most likely to see the big picture...

Writers usually don't know much about the inner workings of the game, as in they have ideas for what should be done but not how it could be done.
I would say the average texture artist has a grasp on the graphics end, but hasn't got the foggiest with most inner workings.
Mappers/Modelers grasp almost all the 3d concepts, what could or couldn't be done in building this or that, and usually double as texture artists.
Scripters/Programmers are just flat out able to see the whole picture. They might not know in-depth how to map or model, but they know what makes the mapping and modeling possible. They are more suited to be project leaders because they flat out know more...

Its the people that can't do any of these things and still post ads like this that baffle me...If you can't do atleast one of these things and very well I don't know what the point is.
If you CAN do one of these things why not take the approach bravetree and 21-6 do? That is...hey you help me with a little of this and I'll help you with a little of that, but we still do our own thing on our own time. Programmer project leaders can never find artists, artists can never find programmers, etc., so why not try collaborating for a change?

On that note: If any modelers are up for some collaboration let me know, custom model for some custom interiors :D

I'm in a unique position because our team already knew eachother before we formed. We had 3 programmers and 3 mappers, and put together we had 6 level "leaderless" heads. None of us "run" the team (yah and I'm "project leader" on our project page because you can't add more than one...so shush it! :D) and I wish more teams would take this approach :/

/end rant

#9 I'm just not going to waste my time anymore on you folks. I was hoping to get a programmer familliar with Torque to help on a project my company is working on with this engine. I was hoping to save time with me and my existing programmer (One on this project, there are others...) having to spend too much time on learning the workings of Torque.

I also take offense at the statement that "mappers" (Which I assume is a Quake/UT/Half-life term) are not compentent enough in their area to lead a dev team. I've never made any levels or maps for a flat game. The closest I ever came was a handful of maps I made for Total Annihilation, an RTS game from Cavedog Entertainment in 1997. The rest, are a few hundred, all fully 3D levels for games from the Descent series of 6 Degree of Freedom FPS games, which are built 1 vertex at a time, instead of having nice premade "brushes" for us to use. www.descent3.com

#10 I never said a mapper is not qualified to lead a dev team, I said the average mapper can't see the big picture the way a programmer can.

As for the term mappers and mapping...perhaps you should take a peek at the "mapping forum" where "mappers" gather. You think because in halflife/ut/quake mappers made the entire map, where as here they make "interiors" we should refer to them as "interior artists"? They map things out man...

As for not making any "flat" levels or maps...you think that makes you more or less suited to creating interiors in torque? You seem to wear it as a badge of honor you worked vertice by vertice before there were brushes...when every engine now uses them...

My reply (past the first paragraph) wasn't aimed at you in any way, but you seemed to take it to heart...

Not any of my concern but is this your "company" home page? It dosen't seem to load, or perhaps dosen't work with opera 7.

#11 "Essentially the problem is this: for no money, why work on someone elses idea instead of your own? If you can answer that question convincingly, you may find some people to help you."

I can answer it convingly.

If everyone works on their own thing, you have hundreds of projects each being worked on by a single person. 99% of those will fail, and 99% of those that succeed will be simple puzzle games.

There is a limit to what a single person can do.

I *hate* the fact that people think that being indie means "well now I can work on *my* ideas." If you aren't willing to compromise at all your ideas aren't going to go anywhere.

Look at say the number of WW2 games that are/were being created here. Is there really ANY reason to have more than one? Not really. One person wants more realism, one person wants a different aiming system, one person wants a morale system...so you end up with 3 abandoned projects. Yay!

Being indie means you have a lot more input into the game you are making. It doesn't have to mean you have 100% control, and when people insist on that they are asking for failure.

Why not work on your own thing by yourself? Well, who are you going to attract to work on it? If everyone has your attitude the answer is "nobody."

IMO it is a sign of immaturity that rather than compromise on a game idea, people are willing to sacrifice any chance of actually getting somewhere in order to work on their pet project. Really there should be *one* WW2 game, (hell, if there are any Vietnam/Korean/WW1 games those people should probably work together too), one fantasy FPS, one robot-based game, etc. There are exceptions but in general a glut of projects generally means that NONE of them will get done.

#12 Yeah im kinda erked about invasionworks. I told them about torque and mike stoddart's project a year ago. I begged them to contact mike about his game etc. Now here they are (no surprise to me) and what do you know? theyre in need of programmers... HELLO? a group of half-life mappers cant code as good as 1 real programmer. I think it is funny how 2 projects would rather fail than have 1 succeed.

-JAMES I wish more people would work together to finish projects. I can throw down some serious content in no time, but most projects are so unmotivated/understaffed the content i could produce wouldnt help "THERE" game get finished.

#13 My company's site works fine if you type the proprer URL. www.Orbital-Inc.com It's SQL based, and the images, as well as other files, can't find themselves if you use the wrong URL. It's a security precaution to prevent hacking. The site was designed with Opera in mind, if you read the section on siteinfo once the page is properly loaded.

If you REALLY feel like trying to bash Orbital because you don't think it's a real company...take this: Certificate of Incorporation (PDF Format)

Thank you, James Margaris, you've said my mind, but somehow worded it better than I. Guess I was rather tired last night.

#14 Charles, just a thought, but perhaps you're trolling the wrong area? (And trolling is NOT ment as an insult ;-)

Here's my thinking: of your company can't offer payment for services rendered up front, it is going to eliminate a healthy portion of the programmer population in short order. This is for many reasons, some mentioned above, and others as well.

See, if you're not getting paid for something, or there is not at least the perception of prestige or advancement involved on a personal level, people revert to what they love.

Your site states that you are creating a Descent mod. Since noone at GG seems to be taking an interest, perhaps you should expand your search.

Does Descent have a community? Are there other Modders out there? Have you looked there?

Odds are, when interest is the driving motivation, you should seek team members from a source as specific to that interest as possible.

Please don't get me wrong, this is in no way intended to be a flame, just *helpful advice*.

Hope this helps.

#15 Charles, I looked at your job postings. Now admittedly I didn't dig very deep, but all I could find is that you're working on a RTS that isn't 'run of the mill' and that units get bigger all the time.

Your website seems to talk about working with an in-house engine in some places, and talks about a Descent 3 mod in others.

All I can say is, I think you ought to make sure all your posted information is consistent, and make a little more information available about the actual design of the game. As it is, I'm not really sure what you're hiring programmers for.

#16 The D3 mod in question, was Olympia Gold 3. 1 and 2 were made for Descent 1 and 2 respectively, ages ago.

Currently in dev is Olympia Gold Racing, the final stand alone game based on the past mods of the name, and Field Command, a new and very different RTS. When Field Command is finished and Olympia Gold Racing is in beta playtesting, pre-production begins on the MMOG I've mentioned in some other threads.

As for our HR strategies, We've not done RTS games or mods or anything related to them before. It's a gamble, and I do not wish to commit our existing funds to something more risky, but instead of not doing it alltogether, I'm trying to give others a way to get their hands dirty, with the possible chance of being hired into Orbital itself, while making some good money in addition, once the game is released. If I step back and look at it from your side, I'd be wondering what have I got to lose? I just don't understand why there are not more applicants...has projects on GG developed a reputation for burning you for joining a team? Is this why you guys are so cynical?

As for looking into the Descent community, the majority of folks already working here were from that community. I am looking to the best source possible for this game's business model. Here...or at least I thought this was from all the descriptions I've been reading about GG in mags and websites.

#17 Charles, there are lots of project managers looking for programmers. If you want lots of applicants, you just have to position yourself as the best opportunity available.

IMO, you haven't done that yet, but you could. You need to highlight what you can give programmers, as well as what you're looking for from them.

Your typical programmer that's willing to work on royalty projects (I should know, I am one!) is primarily going to join a team because then other people will do the tasks they don't want to deal with.

I can't speak for everyone, but for myself I like to avoid the hassle of managing a team, maintaining a website/PR presence. I also can't map, model, or draw to a commercially acceptable standard. Highlight your ability to support your programmers with a good art pipline (by showing completed artwork and design documentation) and company support structure, and you'll have applicants beating down your door.

#18 We have these things, however we don't show them off as much because we're concerned about plagarism. It's the same across the Industry, I do not see other studios posting everything about their jobs publicly, I remember one posted specifically by Volition Inc. where they wanted an artist and simply said it was for an upcoming FPS game. Nothing more. Turns out that game was Red Faction.

If you're willing to pitch in and sign on, I'd be more than happy to show you these things once we have your PGP signature on an NDA.

#19 Charles, all I can say is, those companies pay their employees. The rules are a little different if you want free help. I'm under enough NDA's as it is without signing one every time I consider helping out a royalties project!

#20

Quote:Charles, all I can say is, those companies pay their employees. The rules are a little different if you want free help.

I've never said I wanted free help. Is that the definition of working for royalties now? My, some of you HAVE been burned quite a bit. That's a true definition in most cases I'd imagine, considering the ratio of finished products to new/abandoned projects on GG...which brings me back to my original point on the other topic I mentioned in my first post.

I have a track record of finished projects, mods and levels they may be, but I've completed them, supported them and set them aside when public interest is gone. I have a track record of game development itself, Descent 4 was Orbital's first major game project, and we were in a mid-alpha when the publisher decided to cancel the game...budget cuts. I managed to salvage what we had of it and turned it into a new game we've set on the shelf for later.

To work as part of Orbital is to work on a project that will get done. You would be paid, and you would not be working for free. In some cases, royalties pay more than a plain salary would. If someone came to me and asked me to be their producer for their project or game just for royalties, I'd probably accept if I knew I would have the time to do it and I knew the project had a good chance of getting finished.