Major warez bust...
by Prairie Games · in General Discussion · 02/26/2003 (3:48 pm) · 54 replies
http://www.isonews.com is no more... *chink* The US Department of Justice has taken over the site...
I don't think this means really anything though... people will just go to www.nforce.nl
I must admit it gives me some small pleasure, our Atomic Mutant game was posted there just a couple weeks ago... there is justice after all, well as long as you piss off Microsoft or Sony it seems... they were busted for mod chips :)
-J
I don't think this means really anything though... people will just go to www.nforce.nl
I must admit it gives me some small pleasure, our Atomic Mutant game was posted there just a couple weeks ago... there is justice after all, well as long as you piss off Microsoft or Sony it seems... they were busted for mod chips :)
-J
#42
You are missing one important element which is intent to purchase which introduces a new concept "potential" revenue.
If someone gets a pirated copy that NEVER had the intention on buying you have not lost anything, they were NEVER going to buy your software anyway. But you might have someone that DOES have the intention of buying and won't buy your product unless they are convinced it is worth the price. Most software, games included are not worth the cd they are stamped on.
And since if I don't like a stereo or car or something else I can return it for a refund if it is crap you can't apply the same rules to software if you can't return it for a 100% full refund if it does not meet your needs/expectations!
And you are right, THEFT == THEFT but SOFTWARE_THEFT != MONETARY_LOSS in the case of casual "piracy".
Now if you want to talk about the Hong Kong piracy rings that sell copies as originals that is THEFT if they are selling the copies somewhere outside China, but as for individuals, I have to disagree with you on the loss of dollars.
02/28/2003 (3:21 pm)
Quote:Just a quick thought, but you guys are splitting some pretty fine hairs about the theft issue.
The fact is, that if I have $30 in my wallet and you mug me, that you STOLE thirty of MY dollars.
If I make a game, or application that sells for $30, and you pirate that, you just STOLE thirty of MY dollars. When you distirbute that pirated program, you are STEALING thirty more of MY dollars each time you hand out a copy.
Say what you like, engage in as many semantics as you wish, but theft is theft is theft. Taking something that isn't yours without paying for, or offering compensation, i.e. MONEY, is THEFT!
Coat in as many vague and obscure philisophical references and illusions as you wish, but theft is theft, and the truth is truth. It simply IS, and does not require your permission, interpretation, or belief.
*/rant* Flame on. ;-)
You are missing one important element which is intent to purchase which introduces a new concept "potential" revenue.
If someone gets a pirated copy that NEVER had the intention on buying you have not lost anything, they were NEVER going to buy your software anyway. But you might have someone that DOES have the intention of buying and won't buy your product unless they are convinced it is worth the price. Most software, games included are not worth the cd they are stamped on.
And since if I don't like a stereo or car or something else I can return it for a refund if it is crap you can't apply the same rules to software if you can't return it for a 100% full refund if it does not meet your needs/expectations!
And you are right, THEFT == THEFT but SOFTWARE_THEFT != MONETARY_LOSS in the case of casual "piracy".
Now if you want to talk about the Hong Kong piracy rings that sell copies as originals that is THEFT if they are selling the copies somewhere outside China, but as for individuals, I have to disagree with you on the loss of dollars.
#43
Enough on this nameless mass of poor victimized game players who wouldn't have bought this or any other game...
How about the people who would have made the purchase if it wasn't being distributed illegally??? most games lose money... and many game studios close their doors... this isn't about rich bastards... this is about survival...
I would say video games are considerably overpriced thus directly leading to the return issue... and I do see these as primary reasons why piracy is so appealing... now, you have to PHYSICALLY ALTER you ps2 and xbox... and it is illegal to RENT PC SOFTWARE (at least in my state)... for PC games piracy is a tremendous problem amongst many others...
Furthermore, don't buy a game which doesn't have a demo, costs too much....has crappy reviews, smells bad... or maybe have some patience and wait for it to hit the bargin, damned fast in most cases... or find a new hobby...
-J
02/28/2003 (3:45 pm)
Well that isn't the first time I have heard the "I wouldn't have bought it anyway!" argument... and it won't be the last... apply this logic to walking into a software store and see how far it gets you... choosing not to buy a product does not entitle you to a free copy just because you can... Enough on this nameless mass of poor victimized game players who wouldn't have bought this or any other game...
How about the people who would have made the purchase if it wasn't being distributed illegally??? most games lose money... and many game studios close their doors... this isn't about rich bastards... this is about survival...
I would say video games are considerably overpriced thus directly leading to the return issue... and I do see these as primary reasons why piracy is so appealing... now, you have to PHYSICALLY ALTER you ps2 and xbox... and it is illegal to RENT PC SOFTWARE (at least in my state)... for PC games piracy is a tremendous problem amongst many others...
Furthermore, don't buy a game which doesn't have a demo, costs too much....has crappy reviews, smells bad... or maybe have some patience and wait for it to hit the bargin, damned fast in most cases... or find a new hobby...
-J
#44
Copy Right
Means, I have RIGHTS to COPIES of my material.
Pretty simple.
Does it belong to you? Did you take it? Did you have permission.
No, Yes, and No. In that order.
And this community is schizo: It's often labelled as "my idea" so, ideas seem to have intrinsic value...
Whatever lets people sleep at night...
02/28/2003 (8:20 pm)
Just because it's copyright law, doesn't make it any less a theft.Copy Right
Means, I have RIGHTS to COPIES of my material.
Pretty simple.
Does it belong to you? Did you take it? Did you have permission.
No, Yes, and No. In that order.
And this community is schizo: It's often labelled as "my idea" so, ideas seem to have intrinsic value...
Whatever lets people sleep at night...
#45
I find that a just a little condescending. Of course it's simplified, it's an example. If I were to overwhelm everyone with the details of creating a car or a game, the point would be lost by the time I was done.
Point in fact, I did mention the cost of research, testing, sales, etc. I used a simplifying term known as "work." Both automobiles and games take money for R&D. R&D is, however, a one-time cost, and does not represent a recurring cost dependent on unit sales. During production, testing just makes sure the item was replicated correctly. And, as I said, the computer handles that in the case of software duplication.
Let me clarify my overall point: I am not advocating that people copy everyone's stuff. I'm saying it's going to happen no matter how hard you try to control it. If you've got a problem with it, you should stop complaining endlessly about it and start doing something. Change the source of the problem, not the result.
Edit: Also, to clarify the original point of my posting, I'm responding to the assertion that copying software is the same as stealing $30 out of someone's pocket.
And here's the O'Reilly article for those of you that are interested. It's mainly geared towards music copying, but the game development industry has more in common with the music industry than I think they're willing to admit. ;-)
02/28/2003 (10:01 pm)
Quote:Your analogy of an automobile, while interesting, is a bit simplified... the research, testing, sales floors, transportation, taxation, etc should probably be figured in along with raw materials...
Yup, it costs money to create game technology and content... and no, that cost isn't limited to the raw materials of creating a cd, box, or bandwidth to transfer the data... another overly simplified statement...
I find that a just a little condescending. Of course it's simplified, it's an example. If I were to overwhelm everyone with the details of creating a car or a game, the point would be lost by the time I was done.
Point in fact, I did mention the cost of research, testing, sales, etc. I used a simplifying term known as "work." Both automobiles and games take money for R&D. R&D is, however, a one-time cost, and does not represent a recurring cost dependent on unit sales. During production, testing just makes sure the item was replicated correctly. And, as I said, the computer handles that in the case of software duplication.
Let me clarify my overall point: I am not advocating that people copy everyone's stuff. I'm saying it's going to happen no matter how hard you try to control it. If you've got a problem with it, you should stop complaining endlessly about it and start doing something. Change the source of the problem, not the result.
Edit: Also, to clarify the original point of my posting, I'm responding to the assertion that copying software is the same as stealing $30 out of someone's pocket.
And here's the O'Reilly article for those of you that are interested. It's mainly geared towards music copying, but the game development industry has more in common with the music industry than I think they're willing to admit. ;-)
#46
It's difficult to imagine and create a new way of making a living creating software, but I for one am trying. And I think Garage Games is making an attempt on their part too.
Anyway, this doesn't have anything to do with mod chips, does it? Speaking of which, is anyone working on running TGE on the Xbox?
03/01/2003 (7:53 am)
The basic problem is that the software industry has borrowed the "publishing" paradigm from the "book industry". Think about it, there's a physical box on the shelf in a store, with nice cover art and a bold title. Does it need any of that, or is it catering to an antiquated paradigm that doesn't really relate to something that doesn't have a natural physical form?It's difficult to imagine and create a new way of making a living creating software, but I for one am trying. And I think Garage Games is making an attempt on their part too.
Anyway, this doesn't have anything to do with mod chips, does it? Speaking of which, is anyone working on running TGE on the Xbox?
#47
If you steal my car, i'm now without a car, but if you pirate my game, I still have my game, and I can still continue to sell it to those willing to pay. Someone pirating a copy does not directly equate into a loss on my part...
What will I do to combat piracy? First, I won't charge an unreasonable amount of money for my product. And second, in the case of my project, its a multiplayer game, which will require offsite authentication. Like WON.net, you can't authenticate unless you have a valid key, and you can't have a valid key unless you or someone else coughed up the $$ for that key. Go ahead and give the key away, but still only one person can ever use it at a time.
03/03/2003 (9:24 pm)
What makes me laugh is when companies like Microsoft cite these "Million and Billion dollar losses due to software piracy" which is a complete crock of ...If you steal my car, i'm now without a car, but if you pirate my game, I still have my game, and I can still continue to sell it to those willing to pay. Someone pirating a copy does not directly equate into a loss on my part...
What will I do to combat piracy? First, I won't charge an unreasonable amount of money for my product. And second, in the case of my project, its a multiplayer game, which will require offsite authentication. Like WON.net, you can't authenticate unless you have a valid key, and you can't have a valid key unless you or someone else coughed up the $$ for that key. Go ahead and give the key away, but still only one person can ever use it at a time.
#48
03/05/2003 (8:35 pm)
Sorry, not going to download anything from a website that looks like it belongs to a hacker. I don't like viruii...worse than programming bugs...ugh.
#49
03/05/2003 (11:27 pm)
It isnt about stealing from each other, its about stealing, duplicating, violating copyright laws. Your not taking anything material from them in preson with your own hands NO... But you are violating the law by not paying the people for ther product. Imagine if torque was everywhere and they didnt make a dime, we wouldnt have this forum or all these resources. We all need to invest and re-invest into the software industry. How can you expect quality without paying for it? its no wonder business is rough these days, white collar crime and no moral guidelines.
#50
your not stealing it because they still have a copy your just making amother
plus if u dont intend to buy it in the first place then there really not losing anything
finally, the 12-18 yr olds without 3k+ to throw around need piracy to learn enough to get into the industry how many of u have the fu*kers in your course that just place games and dont know sh*t abt computers
03/12/2003 (4:35 am)
its more plagerism than theftyour not stealing it because they still have a copy your just making amother
plus if u dont intend to buy it in the first place then there really not losing anything
finally, the 12-18 yr olds without 3k+ to throw around need piracy to learn enough to get into the industry how many of u have the fu*kers in your course that just place games and dont know sh*t abt computers
#52
They're back, forgot to say about it. Watch out for the popups.
03/14/2003 (6:59 am)
http://www.stolemy.comThey're back, forgot to say about it. Watch out for the popups.
#53
Sure, high prices drive piracy up. But one point that should be clear: a great number of those downloaded pirated software don't want to pay, period. Example: I was in a gaming forum recently and I was talking about how much fun I had playing Marble Blast. I got several replies asking where the warez version could be found. Can you believe that? $15.00 and they try to steal or illegally duplicate if you prefer. :P
03/14/2003 (9:46 pm)
"What will I do to combat piracy? First, I won't charge an unreasonable amount of money for my product."Sure, high prices drive piracy up. But one point that should be clear: a great number of those downloaded pirated software don't want to pay, period. Example: I was in a gaming forum recently and I was talking about how much fun I had playing Marble Blast. I got several replies asking where the warez version could be found. Can you believe that? $15.00 and they try to steal or illegally duplicate if you prefer. :P
#54
03/15/2003 (1:57 pm)
he didn't get busted for warez, stealing, copying, burning a flag, or terrorism. He pleaded guilty to selling mod chips, he was punished by a corporation aided by a jackboot administration, glossing the issue over by pointing out that it had anything to do with piracy is silly. 
Torque Owner Prairie Games
Prairie Games, Inc.
Perhaps if you are talking about technology... I am a firm believer in the power of Open Source development... as I have repeatedly said... having people working with a technology often times far outweighs a licensing fee for that technology... often technologies are dual licensed... the purpose being to:
a) Promote the technology as a standard and to further that technology
b) Make money for the copyright holder when the technology is used commercially or in a closed source application
Your analogy of an automobile, while interesting, is a bit simplified... the research, testing, sales floors, transportation, taxation, etc should probably be figured in along with raw materials...
Yup, it costs money to create game technology and content... and no, that cost isn't limited to the raw materials of creating a cd, box, or bandwidth to transfer the data... another overly simplified statement...
The problem I see isn't people making money from games... it's the huge difference between the VERY FEW successful games and all the others that rot on the vine...
-J