cRPG: How to handle the non-combat grind?
by Drethon · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 06/02/2009 (7:10 am) · 9 replies
I'm working on a 2D space scroller RPG (some aspects kind of like Eve Online) where everything is made from materials harvested from asteroids. Also I'm not currently working on any skills right now and if I do their impact will be minor so the "levels" is more about the size of the ship and the equipment.
In MMOs people are willing to spend hours grinding towards the next level or that next piece of equipment. I suspect this is primarily because this grind can be done with others which makes it more of a social thing, also there is a competitiveness that someone else was willing to work to this point then I should do even better. What about cRPGs?
It seems to me that the combat level grind is simple (relatively speaking) to figure out. If the combat is exciting, fast paced yet still requiring strategy, then the level grind will be less noticeable. The player will just find new options and variations to the combat as they progress so long as the combat is not broken as it gets more complicated.
Activities like mining and trading seem more difficult to make the grind be less noticeable. Both activities are fairly straight forward and simple, not much action unless you are trying to avoid getting blown out of the sky while doing your job. While blockade running can be interesting, trying to dodge pirates while mining seems like it could get annoying rather than fun rather quickly. As a result I don't see a good way to make the grind interesting other than focusing on the goal of upgrading to bigger and better.
As the player gets larger ships I can see mining and trading beginning to form convoys which can include defensive ships and the player can move into a commanding role but I'm still having problems of how to make things interesting when the player has one little ship. Is there a way to make this more interesting and worth the time to grind through rather than just focusing on the next goal or should this point progress fairly quickly before moving onto letting the player begin commanding more ships?
Any thoughts no matter how far off base? Thanks!
In MMOs people are willing to spend hours grinding towards the next level or that next piece of equipment. I suspect this is primarily because this grind can be done with others which makes it more of a social thing, also there is a competitiveness that someone else was willing to work to this point then I should do even better. What about cRPGs?
It seems to me that the combat level grind is simple (relatively speaking) to figure out. If the combat is exciting, fast paced yet still requiring strategy, then the level grind will be less noticeable. The player will just find new options and variations to the combat as they progress so long as the combat is not broken as it gets more complicated.
Activities like mining and trading seem more difficult to make the grind be less noticeable. Both activities are fairly straight forward and simple, not much action unless you are trying to avoid getting blown out of the sky while doing your job. While blockade running can be interesting, trying to dodge pirates while mining seems like it could get annoying rather than fun rather quickly. As a result I don't see a good way to make the grind interesting other than focusing on the goal of upgrading to bigger and better.
As the player gets larger ships I can see mining and trading beginning to form convoys which can include defensive ships and the player can move into a commanding role but I'm still having problems of how to make things interesting when the player has one little ship. Is there a way to make this more interesting and worth the time to grind through rather than just focusing on the next goal or should this point progress fairly quickly before moving onto letting the player begin commanding more ships?
Any thoughts no matter how far off base? Thanks!
#2
My focus is more on single player RPGs (is cRPG the wrong term? I have a tendency to get dyslexic on acronyms...) and very few of the single player RPGs I've played have the player doing mining or harvesting, the player is almost always some sort of hero traveling around the world on his sword.
While I can have the mining with a spaceship be simply travel from station, engage the mining lasers, wait for hull to fill, return to station, rinse and repeat, what I'm wondering is how to not drive the player crazy in a single player RPG with this. Am I forced to limit this to a few minutes before the player can afford a better ship or start building a fleet and use this to make things more interesting or is there a way to make the mining interesting before moving onto bigger and better?
Mining wont be the only part of the game but it will be a feature and I'm just trying to figure out if its possible to make it entertaining enough for a player to try a mining career instead of just gunning every time...
06/02/2009 (10:36 am)
I've stayed away from most MMOs, don't want to pay a monthly fee. I did play Eve Online for a while and while I've seen others mine for hours on end with the very simplistic mining it annoyed the heck out of me and I would only mine if I was playing semi-afk while doing something else.My focus is more on single player RPGs (is cRPG the wrong term? I have a tendency to get dyslexic on acronyms...) and very few of the single player RPGs I've played have the player doing mining or harvesting, the player is almost always some sort of hero traveling around the world on his sword.
While I can have the mining with a spaceship be simply travel from station, engage the mining lasers, wait for hull to fill, return to station, rinse and repeat, what I'm wondering is how to not drive the player crazy in a single player RPG with this. Am I forced to limit this to a few minutes before the player can afford a better ship or start building a fleet and use this to make things more interesting or is there a way to make the mining interesting before moving onto bigger and better?
Mining wont be the only part of the game but it will be a feature and I'm just trying to figure out if its possible to make it entertaining enough for a player to try a mining career instead of just gunning every time...
#3
In a single-player game, people are less forgiving for grind. MMO grinders are a special lot, plus you have other people to talk to around you to pass time.
Make mining at the low-end a quick way to get some safe cash so the player dares to go out there and hunt baddies/aliens/the perfect cheese. Make the increase of power through regular fighting aid in getting superb mining ships and equipment so big money can be made, bases can be built, that sort of thing. Make any valuable minerals guarded, so the player either has to stay and defend it once automated mining systems are available, or make them save money for automated defenses.
X and X:Beyond the Frontier and so on had a lot of that. Don't remember if you could buy more structures than mining-related things, but there were all sorts of things to buy with increasing price tags. Something worth grinding a bit for.
06/02/2009 (7:31 pm)
Don't make mining take so much time. Just make better equipment yield more minerals, and waste less. That is, much lost material with the worst equipment, and you only get small chunks per attempt.In a single-player game, people are less forgiving for grind. MMO grinders are a special lot, plus you have other people to talk to around you to pass time.
Make mining at the low-end a quick way to get some safe cash so the player dares to go out there and hunt baddies/aliens/the perfect cheese. Make the increase of power through regular fighting aid in getting superb mining ships and equipment so big money can be made, bases can be built, that sort of thing. Make any valuable minerals guarded, so the player either has to stay and defend it once automated mining systems are available, or make them save money for automated defenses.
X and X:Beyond the Frontier and so on had a lot of that. Don't remember if you could buy more structures than mining-related things, but there were all sorts of things to buy with increasing price tags. Something worth grinding a bit for.
#4
06/04/2009 (3:00 am)
Right, for what you want to do, the X series would be a great case study. Get a copy of X3: Reunion and see how it works :D
#5
I think what I'll have to do is make some of the initial ships with extremely low mineral costs so a short period of mining can produce a ship. Then the costs will go up perhaps even exponentially so that if the player goes purely mining he will have to build a fleet to be able to produce larger ships an equipment in a reasonable amount of time...
06/04/2009 (6:03 am)
Thanks for the advice, it tracks with what I was leaning towards. I'm also going with all items being constructed with mined materials, weather mined by the player or computer.I think what I'll have to do is make some of the initial ships with extremely low mineral costs so a short period of mining can produce a ship. Then the costs will go up perhaps even exponentially so that if the player goes purely mining he will have to build a fleet to be able to produce larger ships an equipment in a reasonable amount of time...
#6
The havesting/gathering grind can be made more exciting/interesting by adding multiple types of resources to search for, multiple mining units at the same time (so the player has to scroll through all of them, keeping him busy), and side "quests" like research and development of new technologies.
I've always been partial to dog/cat/mouse chains-of-events, meaning;
I need a bone for the dog, the cat has the bone but wants the fish from the mouse, the mouse wants the cheese. I have to get the cheese, take it to the mouse, get the fish from said mouse, take it to the cat, get bone from said cat, take it to the dog.
How does that pertain here?
Maybe all players can mine for "Coal". You need X much coal before you can mine for "Iron". Iron is common, Sulfur is rare, Mercury is even more rare... Need iron AND sulfur AND mercury to build equipment to mine for "Gold", etc...
Can a player "trade" resources. I know its single player, but maybe AI? Or a "stockmarket" style trading system?
Just my random thoughts.
Tony
06/04/2009 (8:17 am)
Games like StarCraft/WarCraft (original) were all about gathering resources while defending yourself, then eventually going on to attack.The havesting/gathering grind can be made more exciting/interesting by adding multiple types of resources to search for, multiple mining units at the same time (so the player has to scroll through all of them, keeping him busy), and side "quests" like research and development of new technologies.
I've always been partial to dog/cat/mouse chains-of-events, meaning;
I need a bone for the dog, the cat has the bone but wants the fish from the mouse, the mouse wants the cheese. I have to get the cheese, take it to the mouse, get the fish from said mouse, take it to the cat, get bone from said cat, take it to the dog.
How does that pertain here?
Maybe all players can mine for "Coal". You need X much coal before you can mine for "Iron". Iron is common, Sulfur is rare, Mercury is even more rare... Need iron AND sulfur AND mercury to build equipment to mine for "Gold", etc...
Can a player "trade" resources. I know its single player, but maybe AI? Or a "stockmarket" style trading system?
Just my random thoughts.
Tony
#7
06/04/2009 (10:20 am)
Yep, trading will be happening. All materials are available for mining (some easier to find than others) but there will be a number of stations, each one producing different equipment with different material demands. As a result a lot of the game will revolve around the trade needed to get minerals for production and then bringing together all the equipment needed to make a complete ship... 
#8
Some games go toward the passive model. Such as building structures or setting a resource to gather or be harvested. This would be like a traditional RTS, or persistent world like SWG. Your resource is acquired over time.
The benefits to this model is that it is scalable and predictable. You typically end up with a formula for equating time to resource. Given a particular skill level or other variables you should be able to determine approximately how much maximum resource per time a particular player could acquire. It also allows them to acquire resources with time spent offline.
The downside is it's fairly boring if you need these resources in order to perform anything. If the user is a crafter and primarily spends their time producing they will get burnout, either from waiting or from spending too much time managing multiple passive collectors.
The other method would naturally be an active gather system. These are more common in MMO style games that are action based.
The traditional active gather mechanism would be to have a person run around and explore, all the while picking up resources on their way. This leads to the act of "farming". Where a person needs X quantity and thus begins spending their time acquiring it. It is more engaging than passive but is dependent entirely on the effort to travel, and where the resources are located in proximity to other game mechanics (such as encounters).
It is slightly less predictable. The method for prediction would be based on density of the resource, speed of travel, and occurrence of interfering game mechanics (encounters, getting fuel, dropping payload).
The less traditional method which has begun to creep up is mini-games. Where in the person begins a specialized challenge when performing the gather process. Based on their skills they complete this alternative game mechanic and are rewarded with a quantity of resource relative to their performance in the challenge.
This requires additional game design, as you have to come up with additional games within your overlying game mechanic. It can be perceived as both a fun alternative, or a chore. If the challenge is not enjoyable to a particular person they may opt not to perform it. Which would mean then that making it a required challenge would put off some people. On the other hand people that begin to excel at that challenge may find a niche for their skillset that allows them to go above and beyond and save themselves time and effort doing what they enjoy doing. They would be rewarded for their skill.
It is predictable in the sense that reward is based on the goal or completion of the challenge, related to the scaling system for resources. A particular quantity of success should result in a predictable amount of resources. If you're score based it could be based on points, or goals completed during the challenge. Penalties and limits can also be applied to insure a person does not go out of bounds of what they should be able to acquire in a typical time to resource fashion.
These are just some ideas and I hope it gives you some different directions and ideas to try. Good luck!
06/04/2009 (12:37 pm)
If you're worried about harvesting a resource being boring, you can take a few angles, though it depends on how you're approaching gathering. Whether it is active or passive determines a lot about how people approach and react to it.Some games go toward the passive model. Such as building structures or setting a resource to gather or be harvested. This would be like a traditional RTS, or persistent world like SWG. Your resource is acquired over time.
The benefits to this model is that it is scalable and predictable. You typically end up with a formula for equating time to resource. Given a particular skill level or other variables you should be able to determine approximately how much maximum resource per time a particular player could acquire. It also allows them to acquire resources with time spent offline.
The downside is it's fairly boring if you need these resources in order to perform anything. If the user is a crafter and primarily spends their time producing they will get burnout, either from waiting or from spending too much time managing multiple passive collectors.
The other method would naturally be an active gather system. These are more common in MMO style games that are action based.
The traditional active gather mechanism would be to have a person run around and explore, all the while picking up resources on their way. This leads to the act of "farming". Where a person needs X quantity and thus begins spending their time acquiring it. It is more engaging than passive but is dependent entirely on the effort to travel, and where the resources are located in proximity to other game mechanics (such as encounters).
It is slightly less predictable. The method for prediction would be based on density of the resource, speed of travel, and occurrence of interfering game mechanics (encounters, getting fuel, dropping payload).
The less traditional method which has begun to creep up is mini-games. Where in the person begins a specialized challenge when performing the gather process. Based on their skills they complete this alternative game mechanic and are rewarded with a quantity of resource relative to their performance in the challenge.
This requires additional game design, as you have to come up with additional games within your overlying game mechanic. It can be perceived as both a fun alternative, or a chore. If the challenge is not enjoyable to a particular person they may opt not to perform it. Which would mean then that making it a required challenge would put off some people. On the other hand people that begin to excel at that challenge may find a niche for their skillset that allows them to go above and beyond and save themselves time and effort doing what they enjoy doing. They would be rewarded for their skill.
It is predictable in the sense that reward is based on the goal or completion of the challenge, related to the scaling system for resources. A particular quantity of success should result in a predictable amount of resources. If you're score based it could be based on points, or goals completed during the challenge. Penalties and limits can also be applied to insure a person does not go out of bounds of what they should be able to acquire in a typical time to resource fashion.
These are just some ideas and I hope it gives you some different directions and ideas to try. Good luck!
#9
there's also "discussion" of it at slashdot.
06/04/2009 (1:28 pm)
i haven't read the full thing, but you might be interested in this gamasutra article, The Psychology Behind Item Collecting And Achievement Hoarding.there's also "discussion" of it at slashdot.
Torque 3D Owner Charles Kimbril
The minning grind is a hard one. Some people enjoy that aspect of games. For example when Star Wars Galaxies came out there were people who were famous for the equipment they could produce, but these people are rare. Most people people get bored with that kind of grind rather quickly.
The killing grind is a little more acceptable to players, while killing for the sake of xp can get old, it's not as boring as minning.
For the "little player" it's all about scaling/level balance. There needs to be something for him to do that is worth his while but doesn't ruin the game for him.
Yet is something that the players with the most advanced minning equipment can't just strip mine.
Make minning simple for casual players, miners so it doesn't take up all their play time, or they will quit.
If you want to a indepth minning/resource game for players interested in that, do so, but remember that most players just want big ships, with big guns that are really fast and they want to shoot things!
Obviously that is a generalization.
But one of the reasons I burned out on Star Wars Galaxies was I was spending more time managing my Harvestors then playing my Bounty Hunter. That became no fun and I quit for funner games. :)