Differences between TGE and TGEA
by Matt Brasier · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 04/30/2009 (2:05 pm) · 23 replies
Im looking for something that tells me (at a technical level, including tutorials) what the main differences between TGE and TGEA are. I was hoping the TGEA FAQ on the TGEA documentation page would be what I am looking for, but apparently it just links back to the T3D page.
Matt
Matt
About the author
#2
Im interested in the differences in the engine at the moment, not tied to any particular project. In particular, I learned TGE from the 'Game Programmers Guide to Torque' so want to know where what I learned from that book is now out of date.
04/30/2009 (2:59 pm)
The long comparison chart is the kind of thing I was looking for. I know TGE pretty well I have bought a TGEA license to upgrade from TGE to TGEA, but can't find any technical documentation that specifically covers what I need to learn new and what I need to do differently in TGE.Im interested in the differences in the engine at the moment, not tied to any particular project. In particular, I learned TGE from the 'Game Programmers Guide to Torque' so want to know where what I learned from that book is now out of date.
#3
It took about one week for me to re-seat myself from TGE into TGEA, it was painless and natural for the most part, with the majority of time just reading C'code functions to get to know them on a friendly basis.
The TGEA forums have more info along the lines of your question.
04/30/2009 (3:30 pm)
Script wise; its exactly the same. I copy all my TGE accumulated scripts directly into TGEA1.8 and have never had any problems (Other then my own created complexitys). Used the same art assets as TGE1.5, even OGG music and sound FX. The GUI so far have worked flawless. I cant think of any one thing excluding C'code re-writes and some DIF re-exporting, what needed attention (I soon dropped DIF altogether). It took about one week for me to re-seat myself from TGE into TGEA, it was painless and natural for the most part, with the majority of time just reading C'code functions to get to know them on a friendly basis.
The TGEA forums have more info along the lines of your question.
#4
So far as a comprehensive "What's Different?" guide goes -- I don't think there is one, but there are several forum threads that can be found in the TGEa area that covers them in great detail. Basically TGEa is much more optimized for rendering a larger quantity of stuff on the screen, semi-modern/current shader effects, and has the mega-awesome Atlas terrain system -- but it is more than just that.
04/30/2009 (7:36 pm)
Anything learned in TGE can be carried forward to TGEa. About the only differences scriptwise are a handful of renamed or deprecated functions, console and/or otherwise. The particle system is slightly different, and "Audio" is now SFX when naming descriptions and profiles. On the C++ side of things the big thing to look out for are the differences between the openGl rendering of TGE and the abstracted GFX subsystem in place in TGEaSo far as a comprehensive "What's Different?" guide goes -- I don't think there is one, but there are several forum threads that can be found in the TGEa area that covers them in great detail. Basically TGEa is much more optimized for rendering a larger quantity of stuff on the screen, semi-modern/current shader effects, and has the mega-awesome Atlas terrain system -- but it is more than just that.
#5
05/01/2009 (2:55 pm)
Thanks for the replies. I was expecting that there would be documentation outlining the differences in the engine, but I guess I was wrong.
#6
If you could ask specifically something like "How is the TGEA water block different from the TGE water block?", It would be rather easy to write a point by point comparison; notice how the scope of the question is narrowed down to something very specific? You can learn the world if you ask the right questions.
05/01/2009 (3:22 pm)
The differences in the engine's are visually and logically evident, so building some DOC to hype such features would be a redundant wast of time. This is also the type of question you could answer yourself in the same amount of time this thread have been alive, with some investigative TGE/TGEA exploration even if all you have to go with are DEMO versions.If you could ask specifically something like "How is the TGEA water block different from the TGE water block?", It would be rather easy to write a point by point comparison; notice how the scope of the question is narrowed down to something very specific? You can learn the world if you ask the right questions.
#8
05/01/2009 (5:01 pm)
Heh, perfect! 
#10
Where drugs or alcohol involved? Or was it just operator incompetence?
05/01/2009 (8:16 pm)
Looks like you had a bad TGEA experience. Where drugs or alcohol involved? Or was it just operator incompetence?
#11
05/01/2009 (8:20 pm)
None of the above, bad manufacturing was to blame, surprised it wasn't recalled
#12
05/01/2009 (8:31 pm)
I apologize for my attempt at humor. If I had known it would be used to take swipes at the GG folks, I wouldn't have done it. Sorry Jeremiah you regret your purchases. I find TGEA 181.. while at times frustrating, worth every penny though. I hope you find the info your looking for. 
#14
05/01/2009 (8:35 pm)
Just want to make sure that all sides are presented on an open ended question, such as Matts
#15
And you can not truly represent T3D as it is still early beta and to judge it otherwise would be more a judgment about ones own character and intelligence. But the emotion behind the visual metaphor is not lost, i can relate to such feelings of frustration.
05/01/2009 (8:45 pm)
I have found TGEA1.8.1 to be very nice to work with. I dont know what other versions of TGEA are like.And you can not truly represent T3D as it is still early beta and to judge it otherwise would be more a judgment about ones own character and intelligence. But the emotion behind the visual metaphor is not lost, i can relate to such feelings of frustration.
#16
You might find some of what your looking for on TDN (tdn.garagegames.com) but updates there are few and far between. At once point they made a nice doxygenish HTML reference manual for TGEA that listed pretty much function by function feature by feature how the engine worked but the links I have for it are dead. Honestly, you might be better off getting your money back if you haven't already invested a lot of development time in a Garage Games engine and look else where. Otherwise your in for a not so joyful ride if history is any indicator.
05/01/2009 (8:58 pm)
I'm afraid I must agree more with Jeremiah at this point in regards to TGEA. I have been using it since early EA and it's always been a mess, and has never had great documentation. I'm more than a little annoyed that among other things GG recently confirmed that they broke the atlas terrain system beyond what they can repair in 1.8 and are not going to spend the time to fix it or support it anymore since its not in T3D (see TGEA with community resources and big price tag). Since that's been the terrain system I have been using since it was available. I am definitely feeling a bit screwed over by GG (again) as 1.8 fixed a bunch of render bugs that I have been waiting for, but if we use it that means I have to rebuild every terrain from scratch. Needless to say these are not tiny terrains and took a long time to get to look right using Atlas. Some of which can't be recreated using Mega terrains or Legacy tiles. Jehemiah is correct that TGEA is a train wreck and I find it quite humorous that GG hired on a dedicated person recently to document the engines and now the documentation for TGEA has vanished. You might find some of what your looking for on TDN (tdn.garagegames.com) but updates there are few and far between. At once point they made a nice doxygenish HTML reference manual for TGEA that listed pretty much function by function feature by feature how the engine worked but the links I have for it are dead. Honestly, you might be better off getting your money back if you haven't already invested a lot of development time in a Garage Games engine and look else where. Otherwise your in for a not so joyful ride if history is any indicator.
#17
Im in no way an GG zealot. I just study alot and have a very high recall accuracy, and low tolerance for ignorance. It is only logical if some aspect of the engine your project have foundation in is not preforming as expected, to hit the forums seeking a solution. Also it is NOT logical to expect every upgrade version to fit your expectations(I still use Photoshop 6 because after that i felt it became a bloated pig of a program that offered no features that i use).
It is great that we can share our thoughts about things is it not? But factual exchange of information should not be riddled with emotional baggage and personal opinions that are reflected as fact.
05/01/2009 (9:32 pm)
I fear your information is riddled with misinterpretation, rumor and assumptions. Atlas DO work in TGEA 1.8.1 you just have to have the knowledge to turn it on. GG did not break Atlas, but were unable to find a solution for adding a run time Atlas terrain editor, that was simple and easy to use.Im in no way an GG zealot. I just study alot and have a very high recall accuracy, and low tolerance for ignorance. It is only logical if some aspect of the engine your project have foundation in is not preforming as expected, to hit the forums seeking a solution. Also it is NOT logical to expect every upgrade version to fit your expectations(I still use Photoshop 6 because after that i felt it became a bloated pig of a program that offered no features that i use).
It is great that we can share our thoughts about things is it not? But factual exchange of information should not be riddled with emotional baggage and personal opinions that are reflected as fact.
#18
And I quote, "If you're using Atlas, you're best off sticking with 1.7.1." and "the cold harsh truth is that we simply don't have the time or resources to test and maintain Atlas"
Those both coming from a GG Employee, which should be self explanatory to the casual viewer.
As for "hitting the forums", the TGEA forums use to actually be very busy and full of threads with information about various issues or fixes or the latest complaint... that isn't the case anymore, as a fair share have moved on to other engines, and then others have just went quiet realizing there wasn't much help to be found, and others are just here waiting on the "Next Big Thing"
As for "expectations", it shouldn't be a bad expectation that a new build of a piece of software would offer improved/same/similar features as the past version. Unless prior notice was given to say, "hey.. this feature is being removed in XXXX build". I don't personally expect every version to fit my expectations, but I do expect that when its a build that is especially important for performance and rendering reasons, that things would work.
05/01/2009 (9:42 pm)
Sorry to rain on your parade, but Atlas does infact have issues in 1.8.x.And I quote, "If you're using Atlas, you're best off sticking with 1.7.1." and "the cold harsh truth is that we simply don't have the time or resources to test and maintain Atlas"
Those both coming from a GG Employee, which should be self explanatory to the casual viewer.
As for "hitting the forums", the TGEA forums use to actually be very busy and full of threads with information about various issues or fixes or the latest complaint... that isn't the case anymore, as a fair share have moved on to other engines, and then others have just went quiet realizing there wasn't much help to be found, and others are just here waiting on the "Next Big Thing"
As for "expectations", it shouldn't be a bad expectation that a new build of a piece of software would offer improved/same/similar features as the past version. Unless prior notice was given to say, "hey.. this feature is being removed in XXXX build". I don't personally expect every version to fit my expectations, but I do expect that when its a build that is especially important for performance and rendering reasons, that things would work.
#19
I'm not willing to get into this tonight with a GG fanboy who does not know the slightest bit what hes spouting off but Atlas is completely borked and suffers from not one but three problems
1) High speed timers don't stay in sync and fatal the game on multi core systems
2) It has Major clip map issues leading to horrible render anomalies
3) Every terrain is being dynamically lit even with a baked lightmap present and the variable to turn off dynamic lightmaps set.
Two of the three have been confirmed by Garage Games Employee and I gave up bugging our code staff from looking at #3 because whats the point when Alex Scarborough (The ONLY Garage Games Employee working on TGEA, who by the way deserves a medal!) still said on 4/26/2009 in this thread www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/89543/2#comment-610519
Please stop with the condescending Garage Games Fanboy crap and know what you are talking about before posting.
@ original poster check this link for some documentation on TGEA, I found the documentation I was talking about earlier but it has source code so I dont think posting up the link is a hot idea. If the below link doesn't have the info you want I can email you the other stuff I have. docs.garagegames.com/tgea/official/
05/01/2009 (9:45 pm)
Quote:I fear your information is riddled with misinterpretation, rumor and assumptions. Atlas DO work in TGEA 1.8.1 you just have to have the knowledge to turn it on. GG did not break Atlas, but were unable to find a solution for adding a run time Atlas terrain editor, that was simple and easy to use.
I'm not willing to get into this tonight with a GG fanboy who does not know the slightest bit what hes spouting off but Atlas is completely borked and suffers from not one but three problems
1) High speed timers don't stay in sync and fatal the game on multi core systems
2) It has Major clip map issues leading to horrible render anomalies
3) Every terrain is being dynamically lit even with a baked lightmap present and the variable to turn off dynamic lightmaps set.
Two of the three have been confirmed by Garage Games Employee and I gave up bugging our code staff from looking at #3 because whats the point when Alex Scarborough (The ONLY Garage Games Employee working on TGEA, who by the way deserves a medal!) still said on 4/26/2009 in this thread www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/89543/2#comment-610519
Quote:
If you're using Atlas, you're best off sticking with 1.7.1. The main reason to switch to 1.8.x would be Mac support, and Atlas doesn't work on OS X anyways. Other bug fixes should probably be merged back into your existing codebase, instead of trying to merge your changes into our latest codebase.
I'm sorry I can't be of more help, but the cold harsh truth is that we simply don't have the time or resources to test and maintain Atlas, especially since the primary author (Ben Garney) is no longer at GG.
As far as forum posts go, keep in mind that if we're posting in the forums, we're not writing code. While I'm writing this post, I'm not working on TGEA 1.8.2. And yes, I'm in the office, working on a product that is not my responsibility, on a Sunday. I'm just crazy like that ;).
Edit: By the way, if you do find a fix, I will put it in TGEA. I'm watching this thread, so as long as it gets posted here...
Please stop with the condescending Garage Games Fanboy crap and know what you are talking about before posting.
@ original poster check this link for some documentation on TGEA, I found the documentation I was talking about earlier but it has source code so I dont think posting up the link is a hot idea. If the below link doesn't have the info you want I can email you the other stuff I have. docs.garagegames.com/tgea/official/
#20
I followed some threads and had Atlas activated in 1.8.1; but found working with it clumsy and non-intuitive. So that is my knowledge about that. EDIT: Not to mention the discussion was not HOW WELL TGEA1.8.1 could run Atlas, but the fact that Atlas could indeed be activated in TGE1.8.1, so most of your heated huffing and puffing are from your own creation.
Anyhow the joking fun is over in this thread and it is wayoff track now. Thank you for humoring me with your emotional outburst, and time proven attempts at insults with the fanboy stuff. Touché for putting me in place with your vastly superior knowledge of Atlas. I had an amazing time laughing at you... no no no WITH you, but its not fun once its obviously being taken the wrong way.
And Good luck on your project. (PS. sorry im so condescending I just cant stop myself!)
05/01/2009 (9:57 pm)
I can agree with you in part. When i upgraded to TGEA1.8 I expected it to be everything TGE was, and more. Some TGE features had been deprecated, but most were easy to add back. I was disappointed but my confidence in GG as a company was not crushed to the point of me becoming irrational.I followed some threads and had Atlas activated in 1.8.1; but found working with it clumsy and non-intuitive. So that is my knowledge about that. EDIT: Not to mention the discussion was not HOW WELL TGEA1.8.1 could run Atlas, but the fact that Atlas could indeed be activated in TGE1.8.1, so most of your heated huffing and puffing are from your own creation.
Anyhow the joking fun is over in this thread and it is wayoff track now. Thank you for humoring me with your emotional outburst, and time proven attempts at insults with the fanboy stuff. Touché for putting me in place with your vastly superior knowledge of Atlas. I had an amazing time laughing at you... no no no WITH you, but its not fun once its obviously being taken the wrong way.
And Good luck on your project. (PS. sorry im so condescending I just cant stop myself!)
Torque 3D Owner Caylo Gypsyblood
The better questions to ask yourself is what you wish for your project to do. If aiming for casual VERY low end hardware- the stuff geeks drooled over 8 years ago, TGE1.5 perfectly fits, should run well even with today's lowest end hardware, and very decent on anything 5 to 8 years old.