More Swords, HTH stuff
by Front Ear Sound-Stephen Hamacek · in General Discussion · 01/22/2003 (4:38 am) · 4 replies
Hi ppl,
Please be gentle, as I am a newbie to the forums ;-)
For me, with regards to sword play melee, no game has ever come close to Die by the Sword. If ever there were a game I would love to see brought into this century that would be it.
I know it had it's critics and problems, but despite these things, when I finish another game, or just get bored with running and shooting this is the game I return to.
Because of the HTH combat.
I spent a few years in the SCA fighting sword and shield and for me DBTS captures that all important feel of real melee combat.
I understand that RW is a game, not a sim and that the online stuff has its own difficulties, but what makes swordplay so very different to guns is that the concept of triggering does not come into it. So in that regard for games the idea of triggering a combo of moves, or even just triggering say a single slashing move is alien to the feel of wielding a sword.
In DBTS (in VSIM mode - yes this was disablable) you control the sword arm of the character with the keypad, so each number represents a sword position - 7-9 head level; 4-6 body; 1-3 leg; and by pressing these in different sequences, the sword arm moves from one position to the other.
In other words if I hold down the 1 on the keypad, then press 9 as I let go of 1, the character does a rising swing from his lower left to his right side head level. This allows flowing, continuos combinations that are never predictable, and like in real sword play, can be adjusted mid blow. "Whoops that orc looks like he's gonna block my head shot. I'll flick it round into his leg instead." You just can't capture that with fire and alt-fire on mouse buttons I'm afraid!
Another important aspect that the programmers modelled was the physics of the force of blows. For instance if I stand still and deliver a nice clean head blow using only my arm movement, you might be stunned a bit, but if I turn my body with the blow (in reality this is mostly a hip-driven motion) the head and body will likely go their separate ways. So essentially in DBTS the body movements contributed significantly and fairly realistically to the forces inflicted by the sword.
I think the main problem many people had with DBTS is that because of the degree of realism possible and the level of control possible they were overwhelmed by the learning curve and never really got out of it what was there. On the other, those (a lot like me who liked to swing a real sword) who did get it were thrilled by the game. It is a game where skill of combat in the game really is something more than just moving, pointing and clicking.
In the SCA we had tournaments (this is all full-speed full-contact armoured combat with hard rattan weapons btw) which were mostly one on one. But on occasions we'd get together for battles and wars - unbelievable fun and a different experience to the tourney by far.
For me, the ultimate would be to take the combat system of DBTS with multiple races weapons etc. Combine it with war mages and archers doing the distance work, with the heavies doing the 'contact sport' as things closed in. Strategy can play it's part, for sure, but when the swords come out it's skill versus skill.
This would be something very new, very different and, well, for me I can imagine an online community totally into that.
I don't claim to understand programming (me audio dude) and this may just be way impossible with ping times or whatever. But who knows? Maybe the Tantrum guys would even let us use some of their DBTS code.
It's also possible I've missed things in the forums since I've only just started to delve - please no flames :)
I would however love to hear peoples' thoughts on this (oh and I'd like to help with sound design too when the time's right = but that's another story!)
thanks for your patience!
Sledge
Please be gentle, as I am a newbie to the forums ;-)
For me, with regards to sword play melee, no game has ever come close to Die by the Sword. If ever there were a game I would love to see brought into this century that would be it.
I know it had it's critics and problems, but despite these things, when I finish another game, or just get bored with running and shooting this is the game I return to.
Because of the HTH combat.
I spent a few years in the SCA fighting sword and shield and for me DBTS captures that all important feel of real melee combat.
I understand that RW is a game, not a sim and that the online stuff has its own difficulties, but what makes swordplay so very different to guns is that the concept of triggering does not come into it. So in that regard for games the idea of triggering a combo of moves, or even just triggering say a single slashing move is alien to the feel of wielding a sword.
In DBTS (in VSIM mode - yes this was disablable) you control the sword arm of the character with the keypad, so each number represents a sword position - 7-9 head level; 4-6 body; 1-3 leg; and by pressing these in different sequences, the sword arm moves from one position to the other.
In other words if I hold down the 1 on the keypad, then press 9 as I let go of 1, the character does a rising swing from his lower left to his right side head level. This allows flowing, continuos combinations that are never predictable, and like in real sword play, can be adjusted mid blow. "Whoops that orc looks like he's gonna block my head shot. I'll flick it round into his leg instead." You just can't capture that with fire and alt-fire on mouse buttons I'm afraid!
Another important aspect that the programmers modelled was the physics of the force of blows. For instance if I stand still and deliver a nice clean head blow using only my arm movement, you might be stunned a bit, but if I turn my body with the blow (in reality this is mostly a hip-driven motion) the head and body will likely go their separate ways. So essentially in DBTS the body movements contributed significantly and fairly realistically to the forces inflicted by the sword.
I think the main problem many people had with DBTS is that because of the degree of realism possible and the level of control possible they were overwhelmed by the learning curve and never really got out of it what was there. On the other, those (a lot like me who liked to swing a real sword) who did get it were thrilled by the game. It is a game where skill of combat in the game really is something more than just moving, pointing and clicking.
In the SCA we had tournaments (this is all full-speed full-contact armoured combat with hard rattan weapons btw) which were mostly one on one. But on occasions we'd get together for battles and wars - unbelievable fun and a different experience to the tourney by far.
For me, the ultimate would be to take the combat system of DBTS with multiple races weapons etc. Combine it with war mages and archers doing the distance work, with the heavies doing the 'contact sport' as things closed in. Strategy can play it's part, for sure, but when the swords come out it's skill versus skill.
This would be something very new, very different and, well, for me I can imagine an online community totally into that.
I don't claim to understand programming (me audio dude) and this may just be way impossible with ping times or whatever. But who knows? Maybe the Tantrum guys would even let us use some of their DBTS code.
It's also possible I've missed things in the forums since I've only just started to delve - please no flames :)
I would however love to hear peoples' thoughts on this (oh and I'd like to help with sound design too when the time's right = but that's another story!)
thanks for your patience!
Sledge
#2
You've got my vote of support for that. For myself I have a background in Tomiki Aikido which emphasises Katana-work toward the upper levels. And while I enjoyed game consoles like Bushido I felt it still lacked the essence of the disciplin. I wasn't aware of Die by the Sword and I'm glad to hear someone actually tackled the complexity of swordplay.
I'm sure you know the infinate combinations possible with sword-techniques. It seems like using the keyboard would open up a better method of executing specific combinations. Many styles like Iaido and Kendo use sets of 'kata' or moves that are deliberate and very specific in their execution. An example would be side-stepping the attack of your opponent and then cutting through the deltoid of the swordarm so that the sword arm is now rendered useless. It wouldn't be impossible to record these techniques either if motion capture were used.
I know that other styles of swordplay have this level of accuracy in their attacks, including the fighting knights of SCA. I'd like to see that setup in a combat game though I doubt it will make into Realm Wars. I think their combat system is far enough along that it wouldn't support this kind of swordplay. I would offer my services as graphic artist and designer if a project like this can get off the ground. It'd be a hellava game.
05/04/2003 (4:41 am)
Stephen,You've got my vote of support for that. For myself I have a background in Tomiki Aikido which emphasises Katana-work toward the upper levels. And while I enjoyed game consoles like Bushido I felt it still lacked the essence of the disciplin. I wasn't aware of Die by the Sword and I'm glad to hear someone actually tackled the complexity of swordplay.
I'm sure you know the infinate combinations possible with sword-techniques. It seems like using the keyboard would open up a better method of executing specific combinations. Many styles like Iaido and Kendo use sets of 'kata' or moves that are deliberate and very specific in their execution. An example would be side-stepping the attack of your opponent and then cutting through the deltoid of the swordarm so that the sword arm is now rendered useless. It wouldn't be impossible to record these techniques either if motion capture were used.
I know that other styles of swordplay have this level of accuracy in their attacks, including the fighting knights of SCA. I'd like to see that setup in a combat game though I doubt it will make into Realm Wars. I think their combat system is far enough along that it wouldn't support this kind of swordplay. I would offer my services as graphic artist and designer if a project like this can get off the ground. It'd be a hellava game.
#3
05/04/2003 (4:45 am)
You'd have to make it very user friendly, like in a fighting game. Realistic simulations often sound more fun on paper than in reality unfortunately.
#4
If you made it so that you had to hold down the attack button and control the swing of the sword with your movement keys (D-Pad), that would probably work, although it would probably be a bit more confusing when you're trying to both move and attack.
05/05/2003 (9:34 am)
The only problems with a realistic interface like that is transition every possible swing animation together, which would be a pain, I'm sure, and also cluttering up the keyboard. RW shouldn't use too many buttons, but using 9 or so buttons for melee isn't too plausible, especially considering some people never play with their keyboards, and enjoy using gamepads or joysticks.If you made it so that you had to hold down the attack button and control the swing of the sword with your movement keys (D-Pad), that would probably work, although it would probably be a bit more confusing when you're trying to both move and attack.
Fred Thompson