...Ruining It For Everyone Else
by Logan Foster · in General Discussion · 01/20/2003 (9:50 am) · 11 replies
This is more of a venting of anger and frustration, so I apoligize in advanced if anyone here takes offense or exception to what I will say, but I think it needs to be said.
Many of us have seen this great community of ours slowly grow through little baby steps since its inception, this has been done by people who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into making independant game development a reality for most of us. People who have gone forth and put their own time and effort into fostering development in this community so that everyone can stand a chance at living a dream of theirs. Yet while most of us thank these people for their tireless efforts, there are some who proceed to take it upon themselves to insult and belittle these very people who work so hard for this ever growing community of ours.
Considering all the flak that people take here, I think the only reason why most of them remain and continue to contribute is simply because of thick skin, will, determination, and the fact that they love what they do. But everyone has a breaking point too where enough is enough, and I for one do not want to see it ever come to this, ever.
If you have critism or a negative comment that you would like to make, then make it by being constructive not destructive. Everyone can respect constructive comments even if they are negative. If you do not agree with someone's opinion or idealogy, have the decency to respect it even if it doesn't agree with yours, everyone has their own point of view. If you think that someone has done some outstanding work then let them know, a compliment goes a long way and only benefits our community as a whole. If you cannot act this way in this community then I simply ask that you go back to kindergarten and learn something that you missed.
The more we help one another out the better chance each and every one of us has at suceeding in our goals. The more we allow a few people to fracture our community through their negative actions, comments, and critism; the more we increase our chances of failing. So lets all do the right thing and work together... because we stand the strongest chance succeeding through various forms of collaboration and support!
Logan
Many of us have seen this great community of ours slowly grow through little baby steps since its inception, this has been done by people who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into making independant game development a reality for most of us. People who have gone forth and put their own time and effort into fostering development in this community so that everyone can stand a chance at living a dream of theirs. Yet while most of us thank these people for their tireless efforts, there are some who proceed to take it upon themselves to insult and belittle these very people who work so hard for this ever growing community of ours.
Considering all the flak that people take here, I think the only reason why most of them remain and continue to contribute is simply because of thick skin, will, determination, and the fact that they love what they do. But everyone has a breaking point too where enough is enough, and I for one do not want to see it ever come to this, ever.
If you have critism or a negative comment that you would like to make, then make it by being constructive not destructive. Everyone can respect constructive comments even if they are negative. If you do not agree with someone's opinion or idealogy, have the decency to respect it even if it doesn't agree with yours, everyone has their own point of view. If you think that someone has done some outstanding work then let them know, a compliment goes a long way and only benefits our community as a whole. If you cannot act this way in this community then I simply ask that you go back to kindergarten and learn something that you missed.
The more we help one another out the better chance each and every one of us has at suceeding in our goals. The more we allow a few people to fracture our community through their negative actions, comments, and critism; the more we increase our chances of failing. So lets all do the right thing and work together... because we stand the strongest chance succeeding through various forms of collaboration and support!
Logan
About the author
#2
Let the better good show the lesser the truth.
01/20/2003 (9:57 am)
Point very well made Logan and I personaly appreciate the message.Let the better good show the lesser the truth.
#3
I know I'm not alone in wishing I could personally thank you and every other developer/artist associated with Garage Games and the larger Indie community who spend precious time helping other people with questions, writing tutorials, hosting forums, handing out sample code, etc. I am astounded at how many resources are provided to me by total strangers who know full well that I could be their competitor.
For me Garage Games epitomizes all the good things I feel about Indie game developers in general. I'm with Logan. Let's not let a few bad apples spoil the lot.
01/20/2003 (10:07 am)
I could not agree more Logan. I also know that you are one of those people who have put their own effort out there for everyone's benefit. For those people that don't know...Logan modeled the Orc for Realm Wars and more importantly he gives many hours of his time each week helping people who come to the #garagegames irc channel on irc.maxgaming.net.I know I'm not alone in wishing I could personally thank you and every other developer/artist associated with Garage Games and the larger Indie community who spend precious time helping other people with questions, writing tutorials, hosting forums, handing out sample code, etc. I am astounded at how many resources are provided to me by total strangers who know full well that I could be their competitor.
For me Garage Games epitomizes all the good things I feel about Indie game developers in general. I'm with Logan. Let's not let a few bad apples spoil the lot.
#4
01/20/2003 (11:15 am)
Actually Paul, the Orc (and Elf) were done by Joe Maruschak for GarageGames, they are both really awesome and outstanding models that really did set the standard for art in that project.
#5
But seriously... I think this forum has a good point. Constructive criticism in posts is much better and helpful to the community than destructive criticism and flaming.
01/20/2003 (11:50 am)
I disagree with Mr. Brownlee. I just bought a bag of apples this morning, and it's safe to say that there's not one rotten one in the bunch.But seriously... I think this forum has a good point. Constructive criticism in posts is much better and helpful to the community than destructive criticism and flaming.
#6
If its public, make it positive
if its negative, make it private.
"Private" meaning email, ICQ, etc. Public meaning, the site. This doesnt means one has to be blind to problems, it just means problems need to be expressed in a way that wont make things worse. Even the toughest of problems can be expressed in a way that helps things get better. And its really easy to tell if a post is positive or negative: just ask yourself honestly if the community as a whole is better off after what you just said, or not.
In vaxia also, we have a three strikes policy. If someone says something negative in public, (or anything that damages the community somehow (see test above)), we give him a strike. Sure, we listen to the concern too, and do our honest best to fix things, but for having worded something in a way that the community got hurt, he gets a strike. After three strikes, we ban the player for a month, then start over. Strikes expire by themselves in one month.
This just be info on how other communities solve the problem of negative posts/people. Not saying this will work perfectly in GG too, its simply info to know, if a stricter policy is ever implemented.
I've always wanted to make games, and sampled many communities before joining this one. I joined this one, and bought the license, because it seemed to me the most friendly, (and brilliant too, tech-wise, I was impressed), but number 1 factor was friendliness, helpfullness. GG has nothing to envy from anyone or anywhere B) Keep it like that guys B)
If its public, make it positive
if its negative, make it private.
P.S. the "B)" is my little smiley with sunglasses.. doh B)
01/20/2003 (12:14 pm)
Totally agree. In Vaxia we have this rule:If its public, make it positive
if its negative, make it private.
"Private" meaning email, ICQ, etc. Public meaning, the site. This doesnt means one has to be blind to problems, it just means problems need to be expressed in a way that wont make things worse. Even the toughest of problems can be expressed in a way that helps things get better. And its really easy to tell if a post is positive or negative: just ask yourself honestly if the community as a whole is better off after what you just said, or not.
In vaxia also, we have a three strikes policy. If someone says something negative in public, (or anything that damages the community somehow (see test above)), we give him a strike. Sure, we listen to the concern too, and do our honest best to fix things, but for having worded something in a way that the community got hurt, he gets a strike. After three strikes, we ban the player for a month, then start over. Strikes expire by themselves in one month.
This just be info on how other communities solve the problem of negative posts/people. Not saying this will work perfectly in GG too, its simply info to know, if a stricter policy is ever implemented.
I've always wanted to make games, and sampled many communities before joining this one. I joined this one, and bought the license, because it seemed to me the most friendly, (and brilliant too, tech-wise, I was impressed), but number 1 factor was friendliness, helpfullness. GG has nothing to envy from anyone or anywhere B) Keep it like that guys B)
If its public, make it positive
if its negative, make it private.
P.S. the "B)" is my little smiley with sunglasses.. doh B)
#7
... and I don't know why.
01/20/2003 (1:09 pm)
Shaun, I just really wanted to say... "GarageGames.com is like several thousand bags of apples."... and I don't know why.
#8
01/20/2003 (1:51 pm)
Destructive critisism is something I haven't seen much around here in all the time I've been around here (wich is almost from day one). Ok, it happens sometimes, but its regulary by ignorant people in the public forums. In the private SDK forums its a rather rare thing. I think this community works great. I'm using a lot of resources posted here by people I don't know. I do my best to return as much as possible, even tough I know my contributions might not be as important as the ones made by someone like Melv to give an example. I do believe the developper and the gaming comunity should be set apart more clearly.... Garagegames is becoming a mix o devellopers and gamers and that's a bad thing. Gamers who know nothing about the development can sometimes give harsh comments out of ignorance. We should really seperate the 2 communities better. 
#9
So there comments aren't always the best.
Maybe if the site had it kind of harder to get to the devlopers section? so its not just a click and there is its own forum etc? Just an idea, most likely abit hard. maybe it would be easier if there are "two" forum which people see differently, abit like how the people who didn't buy the SDK can't get in to the SDK parts? and the forums which show up in the Forum Threads are what you can get in to.
Did I say that right?
01/20/2003 (4:29 pm)
I argee, for many people seem to think that games are easier to make, or that we should be able to do everything. So there comments aren't always the best.
Maybe if the site had it kind of harder to get to the devlopers section? so its not just a click and there is its own forum etc? Just an idea, most likely abit hard. maybe it would be easier if there are "two" forum which people see differently, abit like how the people who didn't buy the SDK can't get in to the SDK parts? and the forums which show up in the Forum Threads are what you can get in to.
Did I say that right?
#10
I agree criticism should be constructive. I mean, what is the point otherwise? People post for help or feedback, not a good bashing. Of course, I also think we should keep open minds when reading replies to our posts. I know I have been guilty of 'bad' answers which were subsequently misinterpreted (perhaps not here, but elsewhere).
Anyway, without going on in that vein any longer, I just want to say:
I get really stoked every day when I log in and see how active this community is. I get even more stoked when I see some of the incredible contributions members make. I think we have a lot of members with just the right mix of:
1. Wanting to make a game and be successful
2. Wanting to contribute to the community and make it succesful.
For me GG is an Indie's Dream Come True.
-Ed
PS - I'm about 2500 posts behind...I need to catch up on my reading. ;)
01/20/2003 (9:22 pm)
Logan,I agree criticism should be constructive. I mean, what is the point otherwise? People post for help or feedback, not a good bashing. Of course, I also think we should keep open minds when reading replies to our posts. I know I have been guilty of 'bad' answers which were subsequently misinterpreted (perhaps not here, but elsewhere).
Anyway, without going on in that vein any longer, I just want to say:
I get really stoked every day when I log in and see how active this community is. I get even more stoked when I see some of the incredible contributions members make. I think we have a lot of members with just the right mix of:
1. Wanting to make a game and be successful
2. Wanting to contribute to the community and make it succesful.
For me GG is an Indie's Dream Come True.
-Ed
PS - I'm about 2500 posts behind...I need to catch up on my reading. ;)
#11
However, I'm hoping that I didn't hear that right. I mean, we aren't "Big Time" enough to let our own skills get to our head. Granted, people that just say "that sucks" without saying why should be ignored, but when you say that we should seperate the two communities, you are taking the first steps toward becoming what has (in the mind of the Indy Developer) plagued games ever since they've become a big business. We should never ignore the words of a gamer even if they know nothing of development, because in the end, those are the people we are trying to win over. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want to make games that many different types of people enjoy. And I want all to be impressed, (not just the Indy who knows how hard it is to make anything worthwhile). If an "ignorant" gamer says that something sucks...ask him why and take it to heart. Afterall, there is a reason that companies hire testers and QA personnel that haven't worked in the industry for too long. If you set the hurdle to impossible heights, even if you fail, you might still find that you have jumped much higher.
01/21/2003 (8:08 am)
Ward, I agree that I haven't really seen any Destructive criticism on this site. I've seen flame wars about consoles and political things, but never about resources that people have submitted. This site is actually quite supportive, I've found.However, I'm hoping that I didn't hear that right. I mean, we aren't "Big Time" enough to let our own skills get to our head. Granted, people that just say "that sucks" without saying why should be ignored, but when you say that we should seperate the two communities, you are taking the first steps toward becoming what has (in the mind of the Indy Developer) plagued games ever since they've become a big business. We should never ignore the words of a gamer even if they know nothing of development, because in the end, those are the people we are trying to win over. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want to make games that many different types of people enjoy. And I want all to be impressed, (not just the Indy who knows how hard it is to make anything worthwhile). If an "ignorant" gamer says that something sucks...ask him why and take it to heart. Afterall, there is a reason that companies hire testers and QA personnel that haven't worked in the industry for too long. If you set the hurdle to impossible heights, even if you fail, you might still find that you have jumped much higher.
Torque Owner Ernest
GarageGames.com is like several thousand bags of apples.