Is Torque 3D for me?...
by Gareth Hewes · in General Discussion · 03/23/2009 (2:50 pm) · 9 replies
So I have been watching the blogs, and this new Torque 3D looks intriguing. However, it definitely seems more focused on people intending to do some hardcore development.
To put this into perspective, I should elaborate my position. I'm a full-time college student who also works, and I want to make games just as a kind of hobby/diversion until I can figure out if I want to continue to pursue it. The problem is, I want to make games that look good, and the art side of it is not a problem for me. However, I'm not a programmer, and without either being a programmer or having one on a team, anything past TGE is practically useless (or at least has seemed to be in my experience).
So, looking at the new engine, there is really just one main question I have. $1000 is not a trivial price (for someone not looking into getting commercially into games, at least initially) and I got more out of TGE than TGEA (especially in proportion to cost). So the question would be,
Is it easier or harder to make a good looking game with T3D than TGEA?
(This from an engine perspective. I know it's subjective, but what I mean is do the extra bells and whistles require more or less programming than they did for TGEA? For me, dynamic graphical interface rules supreme [world editor flexibility, etc.])
Minor questions would be:
Is it worth it to me to take the early adopter price when the beta is useless to me (at least if it's in the state that TGEA EA was) and I won't be able to do anything with it at least until the UI is more polished and less programming is required?
Is the 3x price going to get me 3x functionality and ease of use over TGEA?
Will TGEA going into obsolescence force me to spend the money for the new engine? (New file types, etc.).
I don't know. It just seems like the new engines are definitely going more for the commercial potential of hardcore developers than the single people or small groups that do it for the love of it. (Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that devs are where the money is). The question is, will there still be a place for the weekend "art house" game design crowd?
I would think that maybe just the "basic" version of T3D would be best for me because I don't really ever use the source. But then, I can't use my TGEA for credit and it seems to be missing several of the things that make the new version worth buying.
Sorry if I seem a bit pessimistic, but I just need to wrap my head around the idea of spending that much money on something I don't know that I can justify. Again, I know that's subjective, but a discussion of the pros versus the cons might help to clear up the decision.
So far:
+ Better functions and graphics
+ More editors
+/- (?) Ease of use over TGEA?
-- Cost for a poor college student
EDIT: I want to leave everything in it's original context, but rereading the post, I find my tone rather acidic. I want to apologize for sounding belittling to the amount of great functionality that TGE, TGEA and (I'm sure) T3D have to offer. GG staff has done a great job with everything, and I have to remember that if as many people have done what they have with the engines and I can't that isn't the engine's fault, if you know what I mean.
It is just difficult to grow up with things like RPGMs and 3DGS and then plunge into this program so deep that I can't see my way around.
Through all my frustrations, I still have yet to give up on Torque altogether, which is saying something right there!
To put this into perspective, I should elaborate my position. I'm a full-time college student who also works, and I want to make games just as a kind of hobby/diversion until I can figure out if I want to continue to pursue it. The problem is, I want to make games that look good, and the art side of it is not a problem for me. However, I'm not a programmer, and without either being a programmer or having one on a team, anything past TGE is practically useless (or at least has seemed to be in my experience).
So, looking at the new engine, there is really just one main question I have. $1000 is not a trivial price (for someone not looking into getting commercially into games, at least initially) and I got more out of TGE than TGEA (especially in proportion to cost). So the question would be,
Is it easier or harder to make a good looking game with T3D than TGEA?
(This from an engine perspective. I know it's subjective, but what I mean is do the extra bells and whistles require more or less programming than they did for TGEA? For me, dynamic graphical interface rules supreme [world editor flexibility, etc.])
Minor questions would be:
Is it worth it to me to take the early adopter price when the beta is useless to me (at least if it's in the state that TGEA EA was) and I won't be able to do anything with it at least until the UI is more polished and less programming is required?
Is the 3x price going to get me 3x functionality and ease of use over TGEA?
Will TGEA going into obsolescence force me to spend the money for the new engine? (New file types, etc.).
I don't know. It just seems like the new engines are definitely going more for the commercial potential of hardcore developers than the single people or small groups that do it for the love of it. (Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that devs are where the money is). The question is, will there still be a place for the weekend "art house" game design crowd?
I would think that maybe just the "basic" version of T3D would be best for me because I don't really ever use the source. But then, I can't use my TGEA for credit and it seems to be missing several of the things that make the new version worth buying.
Sorry if I seem a bit pessimistic, but I just need to wrap my head around the idea of spending that much money on something I don't know that I can justify. Again, I know that's subjective, but a discussion of the pros versus the cons might help to clear up the decision.
So far:
+ Better functions and graphics
+ More editors
+/- (?) Ease of use over TGEA?
-- Cost for a poor college student
EDIT: I want to leave everything in it's original context, but rereading the post, I find my tone rather acidic. I want to apologize for sounding belittling to the amount of great functionality that TGE, TGEA and (I'm sure) T3D have to offer. GG staff has done a great job with everything, and I have to remember that if as many people have done what they have with the engines and I can't that isn't the engine's fault, if you know what I mean.
It is just difficult to grow up with things like RPGMs and 3DGS and then plunge into this program so deep that I can't see my way around.
Through all my frustrations, I still have yet to give up on Torque altogether, which is saying something right there!
#2
For me, I guess the cost isn't the main issue, it's how useful it will be to ME for the cost. Every engine Torque has released has been [priced] well below what it is worth so far in terms of potential, so I don't begrudge them wanting more level compensation. There are also a lot more people putting in their time now than there were for the first engines.
I guess I just feel kind of like Torque is this ship that's sailing off for a new world and I'm not sure if I can get aboard. Well, that actually isn't even a very good analogy, but it works.
EDIT: Clarification in 2nd Paragraph
03/23/2009 (3:15 pm)
The basic does sound like a good deal, particularly for students. Like I said, I would probably go for it myself, but I am one of those obsessive people that if I see a function that sounds cool that's only on Pro, I would pay the extra cost even if I never got around to using it (which is pretty much exactly what happened to me with TGEA).For me, I guess the cost isn't the main issue, it's how useful it will be to ME for the cost. Every engine Torque has released has been [priced] well below what it is worth so far in terms of potential, so I don't begrudge them wanting more level compensation. There are also a lot more people putting in their time now than there were for the first engines.
I guess I just feel kind of like Torque is this ship that's sailing off for a new world and I'm not sure if I can get aboard. Well, that actually isn't even a very good analogy, but it works.
EDIT: Clarification in 2nd Paragraph
#3
03/24/2009 (11:19 am)
Blame PS3, Xbox, and Wii for perceived "mission:new world". They've raised the bar on graphics and GG has gotta keep indies in the game somehow. Seems like their new world is full of serious game developers that can afford to compete. It probably wouldn't be in their best interest to maintain an engine that can't come close to the competition in the name of helping the financially challenged (no offense, I'm in the same boat as you ($$$..???)). Students (like myself) could stick with TGE for practice and learning purposes and if they ever decided to get serious about game dev they could INVEST...in T3D and themselves unless your skills ain't worth the grand (again, not offending but challenging). Lets face it, for most gamers better graphics = better gaming experience and from what I've been able to gather about T3D, its gonna inable indies to continue to compete.
#4
03/24/2009 (1:02 pm)
I have a question about the $250 version. In TGEA torque script is very very limited and you couldn't really make a functional custom game in it, or even come close. Has torque script been upgraded for T3D to the point where it is possible to make games with the $250 version, or is it pretty much pay for pro or you can only make generic games?
#5
03/24/2009 (3:37 pm)
Go to the community tab at the top of this page and click games. I think those games are functional though I question if T3D will offer any IMPROVED AI or physics. 
#6
03/25/2009 (7:46 am)
Physics, yes, though I am not sure about the integration with the first release for pre-orders. AI is an extremely difficult thing to tackle in a genre neutral (or game neutral) way. The games on that list have their own implementations of AI that were tailored specifically to the game. We had a little discussion about AI and engines during the IRC hookup.
#7
The main thing is, I see Torque like a cockpit. TGE is like for an old biplane--joystick, rudder controls, throttle, and a few buttons. TGEA came out, and it was like a newer plane--you add the hydraulic controls for more functions, but those functions increase the capability of the plane exponentially, but make it that much harder to even get off the runway.
Then T3D comes along, and it looks like a fighter jet. Sleek, powerful, and capable of mind-boggling acrobatics, but with an HUD so complicated just looking at it fries your brain. You know what I mean?
The idea of integrating physics and better lighting and day/night cycles all sound downright awesome to me, but I have to know my limits. Maybe when this semester is over and I don't have arch projects to do every night, I will be able to invest the time in Torque that it deserves and find out what I need to do to get over the hump.
I think at this point I'll stick with TGEA until I know for sure that T3D is what I need. I mean, it is still very possible to make games that look great for TGEA, and chances are that if I get good enough to find I need the added functionality, then the knowledge will translate pretty cleanly to T3D.
In any case, if you have decided you are (or aren't) going for T3D, I'd still love to hear what your reasons are and what you hope to achieve with your decision. And in any case, let's not let the divide split the community, because there's still a whole lot of potential here all the way from pros down to people like me!
03/25/2009 (11:47 am)
That's what I mean--I can see there's some awesome stuff (or potentially awesome, since I obviously haven't seen it in action) coming out for the new version.The main thing is, I see Torque like a cockpit. TGE is like for an old biplane--joystick, rudder controls, throttle, and a few buttons. TGEA came out, and it was like a newer plane--you add the hydraulic controls for more functions, but those functions increase the capability of the plane exponentially, but make it that much harder to even get off the runway.
Then T3D comes along, and it looks like a fighter jet. Sleek, powerful, and capable of mind-boggling acrobatics, but with an HUD so complicated just looking at it fries your brain. You know what I mean?
The idea of integrating physics and better lighting and day/night cycles all sound downright awesome to me, but I have to know my limits. Maybe when this semester is over and I don't have arch projects to do every night, I will be able to invest the time in Torque that it deserves and find out what I need to do to get over the hump.
I think at this point I'll stick with TGEA until I know for sure that T3D is what I need. I mean, it is still very possible to make games that look great for TGEA, and chances are that if I get good enough to find I need the added functionality, then the knowledge will translate pretty cleanly to T3D.
In any case, if you have decided you are (or aren't) going for T3D, I'd still love to hear what your reasons are and what you hope to achieve with your decision. And in any case, let's not let the divide split the community, because there's still a whole lot of potential here all the way from pros down to people like me!
#8
03/25/2009 (11:02 pm)
One of the primary goals of tool development on Torque 3D is to make things easier to use and specifically create a better workflow.
#9
My guess is that I'll have to wait and see and if I do feel it will be better, just bite the bullet and miss out on the EA discount.
EDIT: Though, on the plus side, I just got a copy of Visual C++ Express, so hopefully I can learn enough to at least know my way around the source, and eventually enough to make my own changes for what I need to do with it.
03/27/2009 (11:08 am)
Don't get me wrong, it sounds really cool. And even if I couldn't use it very well, I would love to have it just to mess around with it. The only difference is that when I got TGEA, I was out of school and working full time. Now I've gone back to school, and it's hard to justify something that will cost me a month and a half of my share of rent that I'll only "mess around" with.My guess is that I'll have to wait and see and if I do feel it will be better, just bite the bullet and miss out on the EA discount.
EDIT: Though, on the plus side, I just got a copy of Visual C++ Express, so hopefully I can learn enough to at least know my way around the source, and eventually enough to make my own changes for what I need to do with it.
Torque Owner Samuel Batista
However, if you are a programmer and want to get acquainted with how the engine works, so at a later date you can add functionality or fine tune the engine for a particular game it'll cost you 1000 dollars (ouch for me).
I'm a little disappointed with Garage Games because of this pricing model considering I'm a game programming student, they should really have a student price model like Microsoft does, it would be in their best interest to fireproof their engine.