Networking model in TX3d?

#1 I do not think that TX (in any flavour) will include network support. You will have to use the XNA support for networking.

#2 I'm hoping that's not true. Networking is an integral component of an engine and one of the things that sets Torque apart. XNA by itself is pretty darn easy, but I’d look to Torque for providing a standardized framework and wrapper around everything. I’d expect GG to use the underlying XNA methods, but I’d hope it would all be pre-integrated into the framework like it is with the other Torque products. I’d like someone from GG to clarify. Otherwise, it’s just XNA with some library calls to perform different things like particle systems or object management, but that’s not an engine. An engine needs to be a complete and controlled system for managing your game. TGE/TGEA are complete engines. I just spent $250 on a pre-order of TX3D and I’m expecting to get a complete engine from that, hence I’m expecting networking to be integrated as it is with the other engines. I’ll be very disappointed if its not.

#3 You'll be very disappointed because this amazing engine (which you can get for just a few hundred dollars) built with all the blood, sweat, and tears of GarageGame's experience to make pretty much any game possible simply because it might not have networking?

I think it's absolutely amazing that someone can spend just a few hundred dollars to get an engine like this (along with getting XNA for free from microsoft) which not only allows you to create games with advanced technology for the PC, but also for one of the top (if not THE top) game consoles out. Just a few hundred dollars with no royalties and all the experience from the other engines they've produced. Amazing.

I don't mind at all there's no networking in this engine. I know i'm fortunate for what it's already giving me and if I want to have networking I'll program it myself.

#4 I never said TX3D wasn't great. All I said was one of the things that really elevates Torque is an awesome networking implementation that is integral to the design of Torque and allows for some really nice scalability. There is years of man hours of effort that went into that networking code and I’d argue that you can’t do it your self and expect the same scalability the you get from TGEA. I love XNA and Community Games and have already published my first title on it. I’m considering a second title but if I do what I want then its 32+ players, and I don’t really want to try and code that myself. My other option is to use TGEA and if turns out great maybe I can get a publisher to consider it on Xbox using the Xbox version of TGEA (although I’m not sure how that networking model works either?). If not, I just self publish on Windows and don’t do Community Games, or I don’t do this title at all and go with something a bit less network intensive like a 2-4 player game in which I can maybe do that on my own.

I'd still like to hear from GG what the plans are. Can anyone from GG provide some insight to the plans for networking with TX?

Thanks

#5 @Laurence

Ignoring RWillis strange "Church of GG rant". I'm afraid that Microsoft have a closed network, so third party networking libraries wouldn't work on a 360. If you want to limit your game to windows only, then you can use any networking solution you want. It is even possible to wrap the GG networking code and use it from C#.

If you plan to make a game for both the 360 and Windows, then you are stuck with the Microsoft networking libraries. These are however, very good and should do what you need them to.

#6 @ RWillias

Laurence is right. It does not matter what in-fact the price is. That is GG's problem. If they want to charge 800$ and include networking, they should. They shouldn't sell a product, claim it to be the same as the other products but just in a different language, then leave a component out.

I am not saying GG has said they are not going to include this, but I am just saying Laurence, you do have a right to be upset if they do infact say they are not going to include it.

Ken

#7 Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I very well may be am I'm no 360 expert ;-), but in Laurence's specific example of "32+ players", isn't the XBOX 360 Live matchmaking service limited to that, indepedent of what XNA and TX3D decided to do? I thought only the mmo-ish games like FFXI that have their own separate server-bank (and subscription cost) could support beyond 32 players? So whether you get TNL or not is a moot point in scalability / number of players if you have a 360 or cross-platform title.

I would proffer that the typical networking scenarios for simple, casual games, are not the game types that the TNL designers assumed, and therefore it is perhaps not the best fit. It's like bringing a bazooka to a squirrel hunt. Sure you can make it work, but the end result may not be very satisfying. Sometimes less is more. This combined with the limitations of Live really make TNL less interesting for TX3D than it did TGEA.

The network library provided to you by XNA provides an excellent starting point to build the networking for pretty much any game type. Furthermore, for the networking needs of typical casual games, it will not take man years or even man months to build a solid networking solution in most instances. If you building something akin to CoD in XNA, you've got other problems than network scalability to worry about.

So I think GG made the right choice here. I believe they think that, in general, people will be building different types of games with TX3D than TGEA, and I think they are right. There will be exceptions of course (and Laurence may be one), but in designing a product, you have to consider what the core target market needs are, and the exceptions have to be ignored. Otherwise you end up with "something for everybody" that nobody wants.

Ryan