Good and bad of Torque engine?
by David Ashworth · in General Discussion · 12/06/2002 (6:29 am) · 11 replies
Ok, I'm the guy outside looking in. I have the money to buy the engine, and I'm intermediately versed in OOP, C++, DirectX programming. I'm about to complete my first 2D game, but I've been doing DirectX demos for about 2 years. I also have been a commerce programmer for about 8 years. I think I have enough experience to LEARN the engine, but how is it?
Somewhere near the end of my first year for about 6 months, I tried a VB engine called TrueVision since I was learning C++ still and had done VB for some time. I made some quick strides with their engine, but at the same time, I hit a brick wall when waiting for them to fix their bugs. Then, they discussed a sudden price switch and I said the heck with it, and started over on my own again writing from scratch.
What do you think about this engine? How is the service? Do they/you keep up with changes? (i.e. the up and coming DX 9) How are bugs in this engine handled, and is it buggy to you? Have you had to wait on your projects because they have not fixed bugs? If so, how long?
I am a single developer with a possible second person to help me in the future, with a 3rd person doing graphics, and I know that something like this is great for a single developer to speed development up. Any information on this engine before I make a purchase is very appreciated.
Thanks.
Somewhere near the end of my first year for about 6 months, I tried a VB engine called TrueVision since I was learning C++ still and had done VB for some time. I made some quick strides with their engine, but at the same time, I hit a brick wall when waiting for them to fix their bugs. Then, they discussed a sudden price switch and I said the heck with it, and started over on my own again writing from scratch.
What do you think about this engine? How is the service? Do they/you keep up with changes? (i.e. the up and coming DX 9) How are bugs in this engine handled, and is it buggy to you? Have you had to wait on your projects because they have not fixed bugs? If so, how long?
I am a single developer with a possible second person to help me in the future, with a 3rd person doing graphics, and I know that something like this is great for a single developer to speed development up. Any information on this engine before I make a purchase is very appreciated.
Thanks.
#2
I know that basically you're saying to 'fix it yourself', but my purpose of getting an engine is to have someone focusing on upkeep of it for me basically so that I can focus on game related things. Just curious as to if I'm purchasing a set of code that's going to be obsolete in 2 years unless I upgrade it myself.
12/06/2002 (6:46 am)
But won't this make the engine obsolete at some point? (At least as far as bare bones download goes)I know that basically you're saying to 'fix it yourself', but my purpose of getting an engine is to have someone focusing on upkeep of it for me basically so that I can focus on game related things. Just curious as to if I'm purchasing a set of code that's going to be obsolete in 2 years unless I upgrade it myself.
#3
As far as new technology goes... the Garagegames position seems to be that graphics aren't so important as gameplay. So they're unlikely to add graphical features just for yuks, or to 'keep up with the joneses.'
So yeah, if you want your game to have all the graphical effects of Doom 3, you've got some work to do.
If you're only looking for a continuously updated graphical engine with strong developer support, I'd suggest looking at the unreal engine.
As it is, I doubt that the low inital fee for the Torque engine could possibly maintain that kind of support structure. It's only 100 bucks, you know!
12/06/2002 (7:13 am)
Some bugs get fixed by garagegames, some by people in the community. The point is that if you're never going to get 'blocked' by a troublesome bug, since you're free to fix it yourself.As far as new technology goes... the Garagegames position seems to be that graphics aren't so important as gameplay. So they're unlikely to add graphical features just for yuks, or to 'keep up with the joneses.'
So yeah, if you want your game to have all the graphical effects of Doom 3, you've got some work to do.
If you're only looking for a continuously updated graphical engine with strong developer support, I'd suggest looking at the unreal engine.
As it is, I doubt that the low inital fee for the Torque engine could possibly maintain that kind of support structure. It's only 100 bucks, you know!
#4
What about this community itself? I see that Garage Games is more of a vision. I think it's very similar to how Linux was started. Basically, an open source all chip in to make something great type of deal. Is this the case? And is it a vision that GG is dedicated to? Please forgive my questions, I have seen this site for 2 days now and I'm not up with current events or anything of that matter.
12/06/2002 (7:17 am)
I understand what you mean. 100 bucks is light. I'm not complaining. I actually read in a few posts and saw a few peeps complaining about future upgrades.What about this community itself? I see that Garage Games is more of a vision. I think it's very similar to how Linux was started. Basically, an open source all chip in to make something great type of deal. Is this the case? And is it a vision that GG is dedicated to? Please forgive my questions, I have seen this site for 2 days now and I'm not up with current events or anything of that matter.
#5
If you are interested in eye candy (IE: DOT3BumpMapping etc.) check out the following tge.ta-network.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi
-Ron
12/06/2002 (7:50 am)
Their are updates happing to the engine on a daily basis, keep an eye on the resource and code snippets section. Also, some developers post their additions/modifications in the fourms themself.If you are interested in eye candy (IE: DOT3BumpMapping etc.) check out the following tge.ta-network.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi
-Ron
#6
12/06/2002 (8:28 am)
The community is generally good. It is a very active community. You'll see several posts started per day, but all of them get a lot of attention. This is definitely a good place if you get Torque. You will find that a lot of people want to help you with your problems, and people are generally supportive of all of your efforts. However, I find that the vision is more focused on Torque than on Indy Developers at times. Sometimes a question may be asked about a certain technique, and you will see that it is answered with regards to Torque's capabilities. A lot of people have trouble focusing on the developer aspect and focus more on the TORQUE developer aspect. Again, not a bad thing if you are using Torque, but like I said, I often feel that this community is misrepresented as a site "Primarily about the Indy Developer" as opposed to a site "Primarily about Torque Developers". All that aside, I've still recieved some good support even though I use a different engine.
#7
I was in a similar position when I first started looking at the Torque engine. I had tons of VB experience and I had a little C++ experience on my own small projects. I read a lot of Game Programming books and books on general C++ project architecture. For me the concepts that I read about didn't fully click until I started to look at the Torque source code. It's one thing to read about how to architect a game and it's a completely different thing to actually see the code of a strong AAA game engine and see how it works and be able to play with it.
I strongly recommend getting the Torque Engine even if you don't use it in your project because you'll could learn more from examining it's code and tinkering with it than spending over $1000 on game programming books. Not that I don't recommend getting $1000 of books if you can afford it. Everything helps. :)
For me looking at the code was essential for seeing the full picture of a game engine. Most books and articles describe small parts of game engine and/or overviews of the architecture. But rarely talk about the "non-academic" aspect of how these components are put together. Torque can show by example how to put this academic rubber to the road.
As far as the community here, I'm very proud to be a part of this community. Generally people are more than kind and more than ready to help with any questions or problems that people may have. The community is indeed "Primarily about the Indy Developer".
As a side note, Torque is a big part of the discussion here just because that is the engine that is the most used the most by it's members but it would be a mistake to think that the scope of the site is just about the Torque Engine. Indeed, the name of the site is GarageGames not TorqueGames.
12/06/2002 (10:12 am)
David,I was in a similar position when I first started looking at the Torque engine. I had tons of VB experience and I had a little C++ experience on my own small projects. I read a lot of Game Programming books and books on general C++ project architecture. For me the concepts that I read about didn't fully click until I started to look at the Torque source code. It's one thing to read about how to architect a game and it's a completely different thing to actually see the code of a strong AAA game engine and see how it works and be able to play with it.
I strongly recommend getting the Torque Engine even if you don't use it in your project because you'll could learn more from examining it's code and tinkering with it than spending over $1000 on game programming books. Not that I don't recommend getting $1000 of books if you can afford it. Everything helps. :)
For me looking at the code was essential for seeing the full picture of a game engine. Most books and articles describe small parts of game engine and/or overviews of the architecture. But rarely talk about the "non-academic" aspect of how these components are put together. Torque can show by example how to put this academic rubber to the road.
As far as the community here, I'm very proud to be a part of this community. Generally people are more than kind and more than ready to help with any questions or problems that people may have. The community is indeed "Primarily about the Indy Developer".
As a side note, Torque is a big part of the discussion here just because that is the engine that is the most used the most by it's members but it would be a mistake to think that the scope of the site is just about the Torque Engine. Indeed, the name of the site is GarageGames not TorqueGames.
#8
I think what I'm looking for now is experience and exposure. I have so many books at my house on game programming that I could have a new machine with all the money I've spent on books. I'm ready to spend some time with code.
My goal is to start small with my tasks. I've learned the hard way that it takes alot to make a big game. Seeing a full engine source will only help in my goals in becoming a good game programmer.
12/06/2002 (10:25 am)
Thanks Mike, I think you summed up all my concerns as far as it all goes. I look forward to coding in this community. I think what I'm looking for now is experience and exposure. I have so many books at my house on game programming that I could have a new machine with all the money I've spent on books. I'm ready to spend some time with code.
My goal is to start small with my tasks. I've learned the hard way that it takes alot to make a big game. Seeing a full engine source will only help in my goals in becoming a good game programmer.
#9
Happy coding,
Mike
12/06/2002 (10:43 am)
Good to know that I answered you're questions. I know what you mean about having tons of books. Can't get enough of em. :) Happy coding,
Mike
#10
Pros:
Low Investment
Liberal License
Great Networking Capabilites
Big Community Involvment
Source Access
Multi-Platform (Mac, Linux and Windows)
Fairly decent tools (although they can be problematic)
Great animation systems
Cons:
Some Bugs
Dated Graphics Capabilities
Screwy Vehicle Physics and/or collision detection
So all in all, I'd say its a good base to start with.
Don't look for help from the GG guys, in most cases you will need to get your support from the Community.
(oh yeah, if you're a diehard.. there are no cons)
12/07/2002 (7:09 am)
Out of the box, I'd say it's basically like this:Pros:
Low Investment
Liberal License
Great Networking Capabilites
Big Community Involvment
Source Access
Multi-Platform (Mac, Linux and Windows)
Fairly decent tools (although they can be problematic)
Great animation systems
Cons:
Some Bugs
Dated Graphics Capabilities
Screwy Vehicle Physics and/or collision detection
So all in all, I'd say its a good base to start with.
Don't look for help from the GG guys, in most cases you will need to get your support from the Community.
(oh yeah, if you're a diehard.. there are no cons)
#11
You get the best network code in the industry.
You get an engine proven in multiple commercial products, Tribes 2 was not the ONLY game Dynamix used the original V12 engine on.
You get a decent scripting environment for gameplay codeing and only have to resort to C++ for engine enhancements.
You get the only commercial game engine I can think of that supports Windows, Macintosh and Linux clients and servers.
You get OpenGL OR Direct3D because of the above.
Cons:
The C++ docuemention is sparse to non-existant. Plan on spending weeks just digging thru it trying to figure it out.
The BASE engine is very well designed and more understandable than the C++ closer to the user. There is alot of hacky cruft left over from obviously rushed development near the end of the Tribes2 dev cycle.
As others have pointed out the graphics layer of the engine needs some work to get it up to date with the cards/APis that have been released recently and will be available in the coming months.
Summary:
All that said, it is an great choice if you know Object Oriented Design, C++ and have time to dig thru all the cruft to find the jewels in the rough.
12/07/2002 (7:20 pm)
Pros:You get the best network code in the industry.
You get an engine proven in multiple commercial products, Tribes 2 was not the ONLY game Dynamix used the original V12 engine on.
You get a decent scripting environment for gameplay codeing and only have to resort to C++ for engine enhancements.
You get the only commercial game engine I can think of that supports Windows, Macintosh and Linux clients and servers.
You get OpenGL OR Direct3D because of the above.
Cons:
The C++ docuemention is sparse to non-existant. Plan on spending weeks just digging thru it trying to figure it out.
The BASE engine is very well designed and more understandable than the C++ closer to the user. There is alot of hacky cruft left over from obviously rushed development near the end of the Tribes2 dev cycle.
As others have pointed out the graphics layer of the engine needs some work to get it up to date with the cards/APis that have been released recently and will be available in the coming months.
Summary:
All that said, it is an great choice if you know Object Oriented Design, C++ and have time to dig thru all the cruft to find the jewels in the rough.
Torque Owner Mz
Anyone who is blocked by a bug can fix it themself.
As far as I know, there aren't any plans to update to new technology (vertex/pixel programs and/or DX9) just for the sake of doing it.