Support for XNA 3.0

#61 I can understand both the frustration of working hard on a project that is essentially out of any one's individual control, and also the frustration of wanting information that affects your future plans but not being able to get it. It's a frustrating life, at times.

I agree with Mr.Nobody that a formal release statement would be nice. Other developers make use of them and, though they're not always adhered to exactly, they are useful for the customer as it affords a somewhat official timetable that can be (at least, loosely) planned around. It carries more weight than a forum post because it says "We're doing this, we're serious about doing it and here's when you can expect us to be done", and if the target is missed the company knows that they can be held accountable, not only by those who bothered to read the forums, but also by the press, partners and internal producers (though I'm not certain how the concept of a producer fits into GG's development cycle on TX).

I also agree with the GG employees who've stated that the work is being done as quickly as possible and that giving an arbitrary timetable is a recipe for being called down if/when the target isn't hit. GG, though growing in size, is not the largest operation of it's type, and there are several areas of development which will constantly require their attention and updates, all of which are dynamic and unpredictable in their details. I think GG knows this and is doing what they can to address the situation for the future. I also think that those working on the updates generally care about the product and its release, though I admit this is speculation on my part based on forum posts.

The bottom line is that if you don't feel GG is living up to your standards then you can look elsewhere for a solution. Consumers speak with their money, and that simple fact will always have the biggest impact on how a company handles itself.

I'll be waiting for this release until it's either live or a better solution for my needs presents itself. I have lots of personal opinions about how GG can and should handle this, but I'm not going to bother stating them because GG has almost certainly already considered these things in depth and decided on their current course of action.

I'm appreciative that the effort to provide these tools to people like me is being made at all, and that there is a community who cares enough about it to get a little pissy when it drags out. :]

#62 Does anyone know if the current version of the Platform Starter Kit will work with TX3 or will I have to get an update when one is available?

#63 @Kenneth

I agree with everything you have said. Everything clicks with the programming term, static. As programmers, artists - game developers, need to realize that just like us, the TXE Gods run into bugs, problems and necessary breaks (if any taken for xmas). Life would have been grand if the request for the TX3 came out when the date was unofficially announced by Kenneth, but everyone should know programmers ask for 2-3 weeks extra above the expected time in their heads for programming a project.

Some bugs don't take minutes to fix, sometimes they take hours, a need in redesigning if logic has worked its way to the dark side. All I'm saying is, from a fellow developer to everyone who needs to hear this - Patience is needed for the success of this product. Life does not go as planned, such as building a 2 grand computer for a game that was delayed 1.5 years and now chugs at low detail :(

Merry xmas everyone -

~DisTurBinG

#64 Soon is 1-2 weeks at most. I feel like I've been manipulated. All you had to say was, "Hopefully soon but not likely before the new year". Thanks for the false info and for wasting my time by making me think I could count on being able to use Torque. With this long of a delay, "soon" feels like a blatant lie more than an error in estimation.

#65 And cheers to Mister Nobody for being right.

#66 The trouble is, if you are a developer. You can't really give an estimation as to how long a project would take, as it could be a week, but realistically it's a month. Not only do you have to bug fix, but you are also looking at the possibilities of breaking something else that is already working, so I can see why the guys at GG don't give dates. I'd sooner have a bug free or in the 95%+ bug free zone rather than a product that falls over. GG are just a 2nd/3rd party when it comes to XNA, so they are providing the tools for rapid development and have to wait for the main source to become available, then patches are provided for updated source they need to check and update their own code, and that is a target in its own right if the goal posts are constantly moved. Worth giving the GG guys some slack, not stick!

#67 Since we are all developers we pretty much know that. Still GG told us in November that the realease it pretty close and will be available in November. Now more than a month has past and there was not a single statement about what happend except for a "bit of a snag".

Also I cannot see what was updated in XNA 3.0. It was released on Oct 10th and did not changed since then. Also the beta was available a long time before that.

Generally I like TX a lot but I would really appreciate some more progress. There a lot of things that could be improved to increase the productivity especially in TXB (better artwork mamagement - also in the engine, collision poly generation, particle effect, transparency,...).

I am pretty sure that this is a problem of resources. I would not mind if GG would charge more money for the engines - per year, per release - whatever.

#68 Dear god people... can we just leave it already?!? So some time-frames were flung around and they were wrong, and that's upset a few people. Best that GG simply doesn't annouce updates at all if this is the response they get.

I really do understand the frustration, I too am eagerly awaiting this release so that I can get on with finishing my project for the 360 but ultimately, it will happen when it happens. No amount of complaining will get it done faster, and I don't think any of us are on a real schedule here are we?

As a developer, I'd be more interested in pointers as to how the updates will affect my current code than when something will be released. If I have an idea of that, I can be coding without waiting to a certain extent.

All that said, GG, you guys need to understand customer service a bit better... One thing that is quite funny about customers is that if you tell them there is a problem, they'll be upset but if you tell them exactly WHY there is a problem, they'll feel slightly better about it. I'm not sure what the psychology of it is, probably something to do with controlling a situation, but being told "bit of a snag" is so many times worse than a full-on tech-spec explanation.

Taking the time to explain something will *I believe* ultimately benefit us all.

#69 Michael Perry in his post yesterday, said GG sent it off for Microsoft approval, so don't worry it should be out soon.

www.garagegames.com/blogs/44571/15906

#70 I don't mind waiting for extra weeks or months if it's worth it. But I have no idea what I'm waiting for. They didn't announced anything, no road map, no featrues list other than basic 3D editor.
From my experience with GG, I won't be surprised if it's just minor upgrade around XNA 3.0 compatibility.
If I were to guess, we'll moan for "starter kit" upgrade next. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
Seriously, what's so hard announcing feature list or roadmap for enlightments?
It will be much less painful if I know what I'm waiting for.
Doen't GG think we suffered enough??

#71 @Everyone - We hear you. We want to give you hard deadlines. The fact is, we can't always do that. Two of our engines are being worked on with off site contractors. We can only give dates that they give us, and if they slip we have to push things back.

How much worse would it have been if we posted: "Ok, we got a new build today that we want to push out the door if it works. Should take about 6 hours."

6 Hours Later: "Found a bug that does "that does not deploy 2D starter kit to console. Sorry, don't know when now" This happened maybe 13 or 14 times before we hit our RC.

No excuses, as we've honestly said all we can on the matter. No one is trying to mislead you. BELIEVE ME when I say we want TorqueX 3.0 out the door. It was a major source of stress before the holidays. Especially for those of us who had to work on iTGB and TGEA 1.8 at the same time.

We have learned from iTGB, TX, TGEA 1.0, and Constructor. We are going to apply all of our knowledge and experience toward future projects, especially Torque3D.

#72 Thank you for the updates finally. There are a few things I think should be addressed.

My problem was not that it was delayed, I would have MUCH rather had info that you were about to push a new build out the door and hear 6 hours later that there was a bug and it would delay things indefinitely. It would indicate progress and prove were not being jerked around. My problem with how it has been dealt with is it went like this:
GG: "Soon"
GG: "Soon"
GG: "Soon"
GG: "Soon"
GG: "Soon"
GG: Nothing...

and it could have gone like this:
GG: "Soon"
GG: "Ran into some problems we didn't expect and can't guarantee our previous estimations but we will try to keep you updated when we know more."

All I'm asking for is for some more responsibility and professionalism and I'm incredibly happy to hear an update that indicates it has gone to MS for approval. I never asked that you guys continue cranking on this through the holidays, simply that we were more in the loop over what was going on. If you give accurate and definitive information and it makes people mad on the forums, too bad for them, it shouldn't stop you from continuing to do so.

@Julian, Rob, Others...
Good god people, this is why Software Engineers aren't taken seriously by any of the other engineering professions. My Uncle designs fuel pumps for rocket engines (only moving part on the engine) and him and his coworkers are baffled when horribly buggy (software) products are released and its considered perfectly okay, because if they create 'buggy' devices/systems people can die.

Don't get me wrong, I know software is a much different beast and there has to be room for the unexpected because things DO go wrong and bugs can come from out of nowhere. Multiple platforms and the infinite combination of hardware possible make this inevitable in software. However, this doesn't mean that accurate schedules can't be created when including room for problems, because its been done and happens all the time. Take a look at Microsoft's Zero-Defect policy if you don't know what it is, its an incredible step towards making software and the process better for everyone. This isn't the 90's, HTML is not a programming language anymore, and software needs to be taken more seriously, starting with us. To be clear, I love this stuff and have immense fun while doing it and I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy what you do or anything like that.

On another note, I can't wait until we can get our hands on this and thanks again for the update.

#73 Locking thread. We are done talking about when Torque X may come out. When it is out, you will see it announced on the website.