A Day With the Most Chaotic Development Community Ever
by Lolfu · in Torque Game Engine · 10/18/2008 (4:10 pm) · 6 replies
As the title implys, this community, supported by garge games is, in fact, the most difficult to follow community I've seen in a long time. The forums, for example, are visually lacking and have only the most basic functions of modern day forums. After getting the Torque Game Builder binaries, I was eager to start learning this seemingly exellent 2d engine. To my dismay, I realized the path to learning this mysterious engine was... non-existant... Other than some shotty, poorly written, tutorials on how to make some incredibably basic games, I still knew just about as much as I did before I finished the tutorials.
I was planning on putting together a platforming engine for myself to build a elaborate game off of when I realized that doing so would be unusually difficult. I wanted to save a large amount of time, a resource that I have very little of, by starting my work on an already existant engine and Torque seemed promising. Promising it may look, but without documentation, its like a walmart employee trying to land a spaceship on the moon.
I'm am not about to even consider purchasing the Platformer Starter Kit at the ridiculous price of 50 or so dollars for something I could make myself given an understanding of the engine. I'd like to point out that in other engines, such as the Game Maker engine, it takes someone about 1-2 days to learn how to make a complete platforming engine, whereas here it would take ???? days. Problem with most engines is their lack of up to date technology, although there are only 3 engines I know of including this one...
All my ranting aside, is there any resource existant in which I can learn the scripting side of Torque Game Builder that takes me farther than getting a fish sprite to move left and right?
I was planning on putting together a platforming engine for myself to build a elaborate game off of when I realized that doing so would be unusually difficult. I wanted to save a large amount of time, a resource that I have very little of, by starting my work on an already existant engine and Torque seemed promising. Promising it may look, but without documentation, its like a walmart employee trying to land a spaceship on the moon.
I'm am not about to even consider purchasing the Platformer Starter Kit at the ridiculous price of 50 or so dollars for something I could make myself given an understanding of the engine. I'd like to point out that in other engines, such as the Game Maker engine, it takes someone about 1-2 days to learn how to make a complete platforming engine, whereas here it would take ???? days. Problem with most engines is their lack of up to date technology, although there are only 3 engines I know of including this one...
All my ranting aside, is there any resource existant in which I can learn the scripting side of Torque Game Builder that takes me farther than getting a fish sprite to move left and right?
About the author
#2
I wouldn't complain about lack of forums features. It does the job very well without emoticons. The webadmin is doing a great job on keeping the spam out and my hat is off.
It's quite common to blame a product without a thorough walk trough nowadays so I could only suggest you save the time writing stuff and do some reading first.
This may have sounded too harsh so here comes the welcome bit. This community is not chaotic, as a matter of fact, you will be surprised how many people are going to help you for free. Don't buy the Platformer Kit, bite the engine code, dwell into artwork and when you ran into a problem you can't solve, come back here.
Welcome to Garage Games then !
10/18/2008 (5:46 pm)
In just under 2 weeks is hard to say how much time you actually spent around the forums and / or the rest of the website. I have a few years of membership now and I still discover things. I usually jump up high when I see complaints with little to none real support. I do so because it reminds me of me when I was very silly :)I wouldn't complain about lack of forums features. It does the job very well without emoticons. The webadmin is doing a great job on keeping the spam out and my hat is off.
It's quite common to blame a product without a thorough walk trough nowadays so I could only suggest you save the time writing stuff and do some reading first.
This may have sounded too harsh so here comes the welcome bit. This community is not chaotic, as a matter of fact, you will be surprised how many people are going to help you for free. Don't buy the Platformer Kit, bite the engine code, dwell into artwork and when you ran into a problem you can't solve, come back here.
Welcome to Garage Games then !
#3
I can understand that you're frustrated since anything with a learning curve garners a certain amount of frustration while learning. I'm not sure what you were looking for in tutorials. Especially since the basics of working with different types of assets are covered as well as scripting various behaviors of those assets. That's usually what people need to get started. We've gone back and forth a lot about trying to create "semi-complete" games or levels as tutorials but usually that ends up being overwhelming. Of course, going the other route and showing concepts often makes people feel lost since they don't feel that they're dong anything relevant to their game since they're making fish move around the screen according to behaviors that they've setup.
I'd recommend taking a look at Michael's links. I'd also like it if you could explain what you were expecting and desiring from the documentation and tutorials.
10/18/2008 (9:26 pm)
GameMaker is a fun engine, and YoYo Games should be commended with what they have done with it since they purchased it. But I find the concept of creating a platformer engine in GM a bit misleading since basic platformer functionality is built into it and has been since version 4, which the documentation tutorials covering creating a platformer are frozen at. The book that is available for GM is a very nice read and one that I often recommend to Tweens and Teens looking to get into the basics of game development without the learning curve that a full-scale engine will force upon them.I can understand that you're frustrated since anything with a learning curve garners a certain amount of frustration while learning. I'm not sure what you were looking for in tutorials. Especially since the basics of working with different types of assets are covered as well as scripting various behaviors of those assets. That's usually what people need to get started. We've gone back and forth a lot about trying to create "semi-complete" games or levels as tutorials but usually that ends up being overwhelming. Of course, going the other route and showing concepts often makes people feel lost since they don't feel that they're dong anything relevant to their game since they're making fish move around the screen according to behaviors that they've setup.
I'd recommend taking a look at Michael's links. I'd also like it if you could explain what you were expecting and desiring from the documentation and tutorials.
#4
In all honesty, I feel that creating a platforming framework with the TGB shouldn't be too difficult and would allow me to gain some amount of familairity with the engine. Our team has not purchased the source code to the engine because we are not yet certain if we will be needing it, I am not fully aware of what can be done with just torquescript however I assume there is a great deal that can be done.
The reference documents, the one that ships with the binaries and comes in .html format seem incomplete. All of the objects, fields, ect are listed but many of them are without a description. For example, the ActionMap object and its associated methods are completely undefined in the documentation, so how will I tell the difference between ActionMap.bind and ActionMap.bindObj? Is there a book on the TGB that we can purchase? I keep learning things here and there, and have completed all of the tutorials, which there are about 10 or so. Some tutorials don't work properly because they're either outdated or ????, regardless, I know a few things about some of the callbacks for things like collisions, but there is so much to learn and so little ways to learn it.
10/19/2008 (3:58 pm)
Hmm, I read my post again and I realize it was a bit more aggressive than I had intended, I'm also not used to such quick reponses with such content so thank you for that. I have been to those two pages recommened by Michael and they've helped me to some extent. The problem is, the best way to learn an engine, or anything at all, is to figure it out for myself, make the mistakes others have made and correct them as I go.In all honesty, I feel that creating a platforming framework with the TGB shouldn't be too difficult and would allow me to gain some amount of familairity with the engine. Our team has not purchased the source code to the engine because we are not yet certain if we will be needing it, I am not fully aware of what can be done with just torquescript however I assume there is a great deal that can be done.
The reference documents, the one that ships with the binaries and comes in .html format seem incomplete. All of the objects, fields, ect are listed but many of them are without a description. For example, the ActionMap object and its associated methods are completely undefined in the documentation, so how will I tell the difference between ActionMap.bind and ActionMap.bindObj? Is there a book on the TGB that we can purchase? I keep learning things here and there, and have completed all of the tutorials, which there are about 10 or so. Some tutorials don't work properly because they're either outdated or ????, regardless, I know a few things about some of the callbacks for things like collisions, but there is so much to learn and so little ways to learn it.
#5
Good Luck
ant
12/16/2008 (10:27 pm)
Congrats on buying the engine, the 2d engine is by far the best imo. im not far in my torque journey myself recently moving to the 3d engine. The forum for TGB is usally very responsive with content and help. as long as you word the questions right and explain although it may take several bumps but they will answer. There are no TGB books and tbh i wouldnt bother with the 3d ones. you might learn some, but for 40 quid theres little to help you for 2d. The way i did it was do all the scripting tutorials. forget the behaviour ones. they dont help your knowledge only hinder you in the future. Once you have the understanding move to behaviours to save time( just to point out anything in a behaviour can be disassembled into script).Theres many pros and cons to the platformer kit. The major plus is the creator.(guy with the irish name cant remeber sorry!) is a top notch bloke and will work his ass off to help you. and 50 dollars is not alot for what he has included.Documentation is good aswell. There a few cons but there work arounds for most of them.Resources are also awsoume i never used them for tgb so im not sure how many there are. but there great for 3d. In regards to the offical documentation.( cant find a link) but there a whole lot of syntaxs and how they work. However i find personalyl its not well explained but use the search bar at the top theres always an example round the corner.Good Luck
ant
#6
12/16/2008 (10:48 pm)
Phillip O'Shea developed the Platformer Starter Kit. 
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus
Hey Lolfu. Let me be the first to welcome you to the GarageGames community. I appreciate the feedback on the docs and initial user experience. If you have any further criticisms or suggestions, feel free to post them in the Official TGB Documentation Feedback Thread.
I have to urge you to not get frustrated within your first month of development using Torque Technology. TGB, while the most accessible engine compared to our other products, is still a game engine and quite a bit more complex than Game Maker. I'm going out on a ledge by being the first employee to bluntly state TGB is the most powerful 2D game engine out there, but with that comes a learning curve.
If just picked up the binary, and started using the tutorials, I'm worried when you say you did not learn anything from the docs. Unless you instantly knew how to use TGB, the tutorials explain how to use the editors, datablocks, scripting, behaviors, and asset management.
The documentation is not perfect, but that's why GarageGames hired someone to dedicate every single day to improving the documentation for all the engines. Since you are new, I'm not sure if you have seen the online updates. Here are some useful links for you:
Main Documentation Landing Page
TGB Documentation Page.
You should find a healthy amount of Torque Script tutorials and docs on those pages. The offline docs also contain a good amount outside the tutorial sections. There is also the Torque Developer Network, but you may not be able to access some of that material until you are a license holder. I might be removing that restriction, but I'm still debating that.
If you had difficulty learning a particular aspect of TS, please let me know now. I can point you to the appropriate area.
On the opinion side of things, Platformer Starter Kit is well worth the cost. The cost of the assets and programming hours put into that go way beyond $50. It is a steal. Yes, you can do everything in the kit, but it is extremely useful in getting you started.
Start with the stock examples and documentation, then decide if you need the kit. I look forward to your response =)