Homeland Security: Protecting our ... interests?
by Ernest · in General Discussion · 11/15/2002 (11:31 am) · 119 replies
As I was driving to the grocery store today, I caught a talk show with the subject of Homeland Security.
I was just wondering, what is everyone's thoughts on the Homeland Security Act? If you don't know what the Homeland Secutity Act is, let me fill you in from what I've been told. It allows the U.S. Government to monitor you (U.S. Citizens) as close as they want, without your permission.
Naive people think "I'm not doing anything wrong, so I have nothing to worry about." Wrong. You have to worry about many things. This new system will not be just used to stop terrorism, it will be used to put you in jail for any crime, without a great deal of evidence.
Again, you may not be doing anything illegal, but what if someone makes a typo? My father almost went to jail because the bank he uses made a typo, but this is much more serious.
Our forefathers would never have invisioned this for us.
I was just wondering, what is everyone's thoughts on the Homeland Security Act? If you don't know what the Homeland Secutity Act is, let me fill you in from what I've been told. It allows the U.S. Government to monitor you (U.S. Citizens) as close as they want, without your permission.
Naive people think "I'm not doing anything wrong, so I have nothing to worry about." Wrong. You have to worry about many things. This new system will not be just used to stop terrorism, it will be used to put you in jail for any crime, without a great deal of evidence.
Again, you may not be doing anything illegal, but what if someone makes a typo? My father almost went to jail because the bank he uses made a typo, but this is much more serious.
Our forefathers would never have invisioned this for us.
#102
Talk radio programs are not news services...they are entertainment programs...always have been, always will be...what you hear on talk radio are opinions, NOT facts.
The whole point of such programs is to get you thinking in an entertaining way...to get you to do real research on the topics under disscussion, so that you can form your own opinion...but sadly, not many people do...they will simply take whatever they hear as the verbadim truth.
11/22/2002 (10:24 pm)
I just wanted to point out that the original post that started all of this was caused by someone reacting to a talk radio program.Talk radio programs are not news services...they are entertainment programs...always have been, always will be...what you hear on talk radio are opinions, NOT facts.
The whole point of such programs is to get you thinking in an entertaining way...to get you to do real research on the topics under disscussion, so that you can form your own opinion...but sadly, not many people do...they will simply take whatever they hear as the verbadim truth.
#103
I *do* know brainwashing, and I don't care to explain it again. See my other posts on the subject. All I am saying is that the govt is guilty of using these techniques time and time again. To say contrary would be denial. You are out of your mind if you think these things have never been done.
James, brainwashing is much more subtle and widespread than you know. It is not about clockwork orange, drugs or anything remotely like that. Brainwashing is NOT washing somebodys mind completely away and replacing it. brainwashing is much more effective when used to control where a person goes with their mind. What use is a living automaton who cannot think? What you are talking about is the stuff of bad sci-fi films. How do you think its possible to brainwash somebody who is aware that its happening? You can't.
Ok fine,i will play your silly game:
Brainwashing Examples by Entr0py (the very very short and simple version)
-------------------------------------------------
1: Advertising and product recognition. This is a variation of the conditioned response demonstrated by Pavlov and his dogs (the bell rings and they salivate, remember?). We see this everyday on television. Turn it on right now and flip through some channels, you will run into one. This is accomplished by catchy jingles, repetition of keywords, using certain BPM in the music itself, and some companys go so far as to use subliminal imagery (the naked woman on a pack of camel cigarettes). The aim here is to cause comfort in the subject with a sight that is familiar to them ("oh i know this"). The most expensive television advertising slot you can buy is always during primetime news. Advertisers are completely aware that people are in a state of panic while hearing stories of war, violence and others ills of society, and are not afraid to accomplish their goals by providing 30 seconds of comfort (which is remembered when they see the product).
2: The "Fnord" technique: This is used to create a constant low-level panic state in the subject causing them to seek refuge somehow. Usually this is accomplished by creating a real or imaginary situation that threatens one of the subjects primary needs. A good example of this is Homeland Security. People have repeatedly stated that there is enough terrorist threat to warrant this sort of action, when really it is not that bad. Gangs, religious cults, and even prisoners use this technique. It is often accompanied by a trigger word that sets off the low-level panic. Once the panic value is established, the "washer" may offer protection or a solution to the problem, causing the subject to become reliant and trusting in the washer.
The actual brainwashing takes place once the washer has earned a trust value in the subject . One of the main things the washer wants the subject to believe is that they are thinking independantly, therefore they must somehow implant thought into the subject without being obvious about it. The easiest way is to put the subject into a pre-alpha state making them suggestable. Usually this can be done by providing a sound that beats approximately the same rate as the human heart, Music at 70-100 BPM is ideal. Many public speakers and attorneys practice speaking with a metronome to achieve this effect, making their voices hypnotic.
There are also many other techniques that can be used to protect the washing itself. One very important device used to protect the washing is to have the subject to believe they are "enlightened" and look down upon others who are not so enlightened (somewhat like what i am seeing in your posts here). This is also one of the easiest ways to spot brainwashing. When attempting to deprogram an obviously brainwashed subject, one is likely to encounter anger, deception, denial and finally total breakdown. The breakdown is very hard on the subject because they are realizing that they have been taken advantage of and feel very small, but from then on they may write their own way of perceiving things and notice things they never noticed before. The truth shall set you free.
Feel free to flame me, or make fun, or whatever you have to do to retain your sense of individuality, but I have said what i needed to say. From now on I am not going to respond to things that are obviously intended to provoke me or hurt me. If you have something intelligent to say, then try to say it without provocation or fighting, otherwise they will be ignored.
In response to the parts of my posts some of you have been quoting all i have to say is that perhaps you should start thinking about context. If you are somehow able to read my posts as a whole you will see that everything i say is built on everything else i say. Dont take one sentence and jump to a conclusion about it. I feel like I am talking to a class of third-graders when you do that. Have an open mind. Once you close your mind you have absolutely no chance to grow.
11/23/2002 (9:14 am)
Lol, I just don't understand why my point of view would get your panties in a wad. I *do* know brainwashing, and I don't care to explain it again. See my other posts on the subject. All I am saying is that the govt is guilty of using these techniques time and time again. To say contrary would be denial. You are out of your mind if you think these things have never been done.
James, brainwashing is much more subtle and widespread than you know. It is not about clockwork orange, drugs or anything remotely like that. Brainwashing is NOT washing somebodys mind completely away and replacing it. brainwashing is much more effective when used to control where a person goes with their mind. What use is a living automaton who cannot think? What you are talking about is the stuff of bad sci-fi films. How do you think its possible to brainwash somebody who is aware that its happening? You can't.
Ok fine,i will play your silly game:
Brainwashing Examples by Entr0py (the very very short and simple version)
-------------------------------------------------
1: Advertising and product recognition. This is a variation of the conditioned response demonstrated by Pavlov and his dogs (the bell rings and they salivate, remember?). We see this everyday on television. Turn it on right now and flip through some channels, you will run into one. This is accomplished by catchy jingles, repetition of keywords, using certain BPM in the music itself, and some companys go so far as to use subliminal imagery (the naked woman on a pack of camel cigarettes). The aim here is to cause comfort in the subject with a sight that is familiar to them ("oh i know this"). The most expensive television advertising slot you can buy is always during primetime news. Advertisers are completely aware that people are in a state of panic while hearing stories of war, violence and others ills of society, and are not afraid to accomplish their goals by providing 30 seconds of comfort (which is remembered when they see the product).
2: The "Fnord" technique: This is used to create a constant low-level panic state in the subject causing them to seek refuge somehow. Usually this is accomplished by creating a real or imaginary situation that threatens one of the subjects primary needs. A good example of this is Homeland Security. People have repeatedly stated that there is enough terrorist threat to warrant this sort of action, when really it is not that bad. Gangs, religious cults, and even prisoners use this technique. It is often accompanied by a trigger word that sets off the low-level panic. Once the panic value is established, the "washer" may offer protection or a solution to the problem, causing the subject to become reliant and trusting in the washer.
The actual brainwashing takes place once the washer has earned a trust value in the subject . One of the main things the washer wants the subject to believe is that they are thinking independantly, therefore they must somehow implant thought into the subject without being obvious about it. The easiest way is to put the subject into a pre-alpha state making them suggestable. Usually this can be done by providing a sound that beats approximately the same rate as the human heart, Music at 70-100 BPM is ideal. Many public speakers and attorneys practice speaking with a metronome to achieve this effect, making their voices hypnotic.
There are also many other techniques that can be used to protect the washing itself. One very important device used to protect the washing is to have the subject to believe they are "enlightened" and look down upon others who are not so enlightened (somewhat like what i am seeing in your posts here). This is also one of the easiest ways to spot brainwashing. When attempting to deprogram an obviously brainwashed subject, one is likely to encounter anger, deception, denial and finally total breakdown. The breakdown is very hard on the subject because they are realizing that they have been taken advantage of and feel very small, but from then on they may write their own way of perceiving things and notice things they never noticed before. The truth shall set you free.
Feel free to flame me, or make fun, or whatever you have to do to retain your sense of individuality, but I have said what i needed to say. From now on I am not going to respond to things that are obviously intended to provoke me or hurt me. If you have something intelligent to say, then try to say it without provocation or fighting, otherwise they will be ignored.
In response to the parts of my posts some of you have been quoting all i have to say is that perhaps you should start thinking about context. If you are somehow able to read my posts as a whole you will see that everything i say is built on everything else i say. Dont take one sentence and jump to a conclusion about it. I feel like I am talking to a class of third-graders when you do that. Have an open mind. Once you close your mind you have absolutely no chance to grow.
#104
dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brainwashing
Sorry, just making an observation, but you act like you haven't been condescending in any of your posts.
"One very important device used to protect the washing is to have the subject to believe they are "enlightened" and look down upon others who are not so enlightened (somewhat like what i am seeing in your posts here)."
You just executed what you described the 'brainwashed' do in the same sentence. And yes I'll be quoting your sentences, as you've been quoting others. That's how you give examples to convey your thought and bring the reader to the same page, incase you haven't picked up on that yet. (<---example of being condescending ;) )
"In response to the parts of my posts some of you have been quoting all i have to say is that perhaps you should start thinking about context. If you are somehow able to read my posts as a whole you will see that everything i say is built on everything else i say. Dont take one sentence and jump to a conclusion about it. I feel like I am talking to a class of third-graders when you do that."
"Ted: If you want to come flame a thread, you should be a little more prepared."
Are you telling me that isn't condescending or looking down upon others? In or out of 'context', you're taking a poke at those that don't hold your view. Seems kind of hypocritical. But just like all the posts I've placed here, that's my observation and opinion. Just like yours and everyone else's.
11/23/2002 (2:38 pm)
You're pitting two definitions of the same thing against each other. It can be done forcibly (reprogramming someone as they did during the Korean War and other wartime situations) or in a subtle manner like advertising. It's called brainwashing either way.dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brainwashing
Sorry, just making an observation, but you act like you haven't been condescending in any of your posts.
"One very important device used to protect the washing is to have the subject to believe they are "enlightened" and look down upon others who are not so enlightened (somewhat like what i am seeing in your posts here)."
You just executed what you described the 'brainwashed' do in the same sentence. And yes I'll be quoting your sentences, as you've been quoting others. That's how you give examples to convey your thought and bring the reader to the same page, incase you haven't picked up on that yet. (<---example of being condescending ;) )
"In response to the parts of my posts some of you have been quoting all i have to say is that perhaps you should start thinking about context. If you are somehow able to read my posts as a whole you will see that everything i say is built on everything else i say. Dont take one sentence and jump to a conclusion about it. I feel like I am talking to a class of third-graders when you do that."
"Ted: If you want to come flame a thread, you should be a little more prepared."
Are you telling me that isn't condescending or looking down upon others? In or out of 'context', you're taking a poke at those that don't hold your view. Seems kind of hypocritical. But just like all the posts I've placed here, that's my observation and opinion. Just like yours and everyone else's.
#105
Why don't you just SAY WHAT IT IS? Is it *that* hard?
As far as Pavlov and his dogs, that is known as "conditioned response." I would also point out that "brainwashing" a dog is a lot easier than brainwashing a person.
It seems to me your idea of brainwashing is simply attempting to condition people, socially normalize them or influence them in just about *any* way.
As I pointed out before, if you want to call that "brainwashing" the word loses it's sinister meaning.
---
You are playing a very common semantic game. Under your definition you could easily be trying to brainwash me.
The game you are playing is simple:
1: Take a term with very negative connotations
2: Water down the definition to apply to things not sinister at all
3: Expect people to still react negatively to the original, more powerful definition.
This is an old tactic. "Verbal rape" is a good example. (Popular phrase 5-10 years ago or so) Rape sounds terrible, so "verbal rape" sounds terrible, even though it has no relation to actual rape.
You definition of brainwashing has very little relation to what any people commonly consider brainwashing, yet you still expect people to get all excited about it as if it maintained the common meaning.
---
An advertising jingle is *meant* to influence you, that is the entire point. We all know that, we all know what they are up to. Politician's speeches are MEANT to influence you, again no surprise.
You won't actually *define* brainwashing because you know that your definition will be too watered down to have any real meaning, especially if you stand by your earlier examples of being punished at school, or having a school newspaper not run an article by you. So editorial priveledge is now "brainwashing?"
This is what I would love to hear:
1: The definition of brainwashing
2: How being punished in school fits under that definition
3: How being punished in school is always a bad thing.
4: If being punished in school isn't always a bad thing, and IS brainwashing, how brainwashing itself is actually bad.
Once again, say I kill the class gerbil and am made to sit in the corner. What exactly is wrong with that? If that is brainwashing I'm *FOR BRAINWASHING.* Long live brainwashing! I never thought I'd say that but your brainwashing sounds like a good thing.
11/23/2002 (2:41 pm)
You still haven't said what brainwashing is, all you've done is give weak examples.Why don't you just SAY WHAT IT IS? Is it *that* hard?
As far as Pavlov and his dogs, that is known as "conditioned response." I would also point out that "brainwashing" a dog is a lot easier than brainwashing a person.
It seems to me your idea of brainwashing is simply attempting to condition people, socially normalize them or influence them in just about *any* way.
As I pointed out before, if you want to call that "brainwashing" the word loses it's sinister meaning.
---
You are playing a very common semantic game. Under your definition you could easily be trying to brainwash me.
The game you are playing is simple:
1: Take a term with very negative connotations
2: Water down the definition to apply to things not sinister at all
3: Expect people to still react negatively to the original, more powerful definition.
This is an old tactic. "Verbal rape" is a good example. (Popular phrase 5-10 years ago or so) Rape sounds terrible, so "verbal rape" sounds terrible, even though it has no relation to actual rape.
You definition of brainwashing has very little relation to what any people commonly consider brainwashing, yet you still expect people to get all excited about it as if it maintained the common meaning.
---
An advertising jingle is *meant* to influence you, that is the entire point. We all know that, we all know what they are up to. Politician's speeches are MEANT to influence you, again no surprise.
You won't actually *define* brainwashing because you know that your definition will be too watered down to have any real meaning, especially if you stand by your earlier examples of being punished at school, or having a school newspaper not run an article by you. So editorial priveledge is now "brainwashing?"
This is what I would love to hear:
1: The definition of brainwashing
2: How being punished in school fits under that definition
3: How being punished in school is always a bad thing.
4: If being punished in school isn't always a bad thing, and IS brainwashing, how brainwashing itself is actually bad.
Once again, say I kill the class gerbil and am made to sit in the corner. What exactly is wrong with that? If that is brainwashing I'm *FOR BRAINWASHING.* Long live brainwashing! I never thought I'd say that but your brainwashing sounds like a good thing.
#106
Tyler:
"You're pitting two definitions of the same thing against each other. It can be done forcibly (reprogramming someone as they did during the Korean War and other wartime situations) or in a subtle manner like advertising. It's called brainwashing either way. "
No I am not. It *might* be done forcibly, but you would never get a permanent result out of it. If somebody realizes what has been done to them, eventually they will defeat it. Like I said before, you're referring to countless b-movies for your info and not real brainwashing techniques. It is impossible to make people do what you want them to by force. The only way to go about it is to infiltrate their way of thinking to a point that they believe in what you are convincing them to do. Do you think WW2 kamikazes did what they did because they were drugged and forced? No they did it because they were brainwashed.
"You just executed what you described the 'brainwashed' do in the same sentence. And yes I'll be quoting your sentences, as you've been quoting others. That's how you give examples to convey your thought and bring the reader to the same page, incase you haven't picked up on that yet. (<---example of being condescending ;) ) "
Yes but I am quite sure that I am not brainwashed, I think for myself, research for myself, and reach my own conclusions. I do not fall prey to propaganda and hype which seems so prevalent in our society today. And I am not claiming to be enlightened, i am simply claiming to have a better understanding of how brainwashing is used on modern society (since my knowledge in this area was challenged why is it bad for me to defend myself by explaining it?)
As far as quoting goes, I was merely pointing out that quotations that are taken out of context are not a way to build a fair argument (as you did with that statement).
"Are you telling me that isn't condescending or looking down upon others? In or out of 'context', you're taking a poke at those that don't hold your view. Seems kind of hypocritical. But just like all the posts I've placed here, that's my observation and opinion. Just like yours and everyone else's."
Hey i didn't open that door, I simply walked through it. if somebody wants to make a smart ass remark they should expect one in return. I wasnt "taking a poke" at people, i was poking back. I don't expect ANYBODY to hold my view. In fact I expect almost everybody to have some sort of opposing view to mine. Surprise surprise.
james:
"You still haven't said what brainwashing is, all you've done is give weak examples"
No, i gave you simple examples to demonstrate that I know what I am talking about. if you want to know more, do your own research. My intent with the examples was to prove to you that I indeed do know about this. If you know so much on the subject then share a little of your knowledge instead of calling everything I say "weak".
"It seems to me your idea of brainwashing is simply attempting to condition people, socially normalize them or influence them in just about *any* way. "
That is the only realistic way of brainwashing there is. If you know of anything other than that that may work permanently I would be interested to hear what you have to say.
"You are playing a very common semantic game. Under your definition you could easily be trying to brainwash me. "
Exactly. You are catching on. People use this all the time whether they realize it or not. It could be as simple as conditioning your spouse to leave the toilet seat down.
"1: Take a term with very negative connotations
2: Water down the definition to apply to things not sinister at all
3: Expect people to still react negatively to the original, more powerful definition."
You dont think these definitions are sinister at all? Does that mean you are ok with letting others think for you? I am sorry, I like to contorl my own thought, even if it's something as simple as product recognition. The very same techniques are used for things that are a lot more dangerous.
"You definition of brainwashing has very little relation to what any people commonly consider brainwashing, yet you still expect people to get all excited about it as if it maintained the common meaning. "
Whatever you think about the word has nothing to do with what it actually means. You could say the same about "UFOS" but technically every flying object you see that you havent identified is a UFO. And yes I am talking about brainwashing. Just because I have simplified it for you to understand, does not change the meaning of the word.
"An advertising jingle is *meant* to influence you, that is the entire point. We all know that, we all know what they are up to. Politician's speeches are MEANT to influence you, again no surprise. "
So what the fuck are you arguing with me for?
"You won't actually *define* brainwashing because you know that your definition will be too watered down to have any real meaning, especially if you stand by your earlier examples of being punished at school, or having a school newspaper not run an article by you. So editorial priveledge is now "brainwashing?"
This is what I would love to hear:
1: The definition of brainwashing
2: How being punished in school fits under that definition
3: How being punished in school is always a bad thing.
4: If being punished in school isn't always a bad thing, and IS brainwashing, how brainwashing itself is actually bad. "
Go back and read my goddamn posts. If you want a definition then go do some research on brainwashing and mind control and get back with me when you can grasp it. People like you are only here to fight. Go fight with somebody who gives a shit. Yes I am pissed now. When you manage to grow up and decide that you *might* actually learn something from people who have an opposing view to yours then you might have some chance of carrying on a discussion in some form. i am tired of honestly answering your rigged questions that are only designed to trap me into saying what you want me to say so that you can better me for some reason. Try AOL chat, I hear its great for that sort of thing. I *know* what you are doing and why you are angry. You want me in a corner, and I will not be cornered. I have played your silly game long enough. Run along now, i think I hear your mom calling.
PS Sitting in a corner is sensory depravation. Sitting in a jail cell to think about your actions is also sensory depravation. It doesnt matter if you did it or not, eventually you will convince yourself that you did do it. Either way it is mental punishment, which is certainly not going to fix the problem but merely conceal it. Yes I consider "brainwashing" to encompass anything that causes a person to change their mentality to conform to somebody elses standards or purposes.
11/23/2002 (4:39 pm)
Good lord i don't know why I am even bothering. If you really sincerely want to know this shit then I will tell you. I dont know why you would even ask me these things if you didn't really want to know, unless it's just to make you look good. But here goes.....Tyler:
"You're pitting two definitions of the same thing against each other. It can be done forcibly (reprogramming someone as they did during the Korean War and other wartime situations) or in a subtle manner like advertising. It's called brainwashing either way. "
No I am not. It *might* be done forcibly, but you would never get a permanent result out of it. If somebody realizes what has been done to them, eventually they will defeat it. Like I said before, you're referring to countless b-movies for your info and not real brainwashing techniques. It is impossible to make people do what you want them to by force. The only way to go about it is to infiltrate their way of thinking to a point that they believe in what you are convincing them to do. Do you think WW2 kamikazes did what they did because they were drugged and forced? No they did it because they were brainwashed.
"You just executed what you described the 'brainwashed' do in the same sentence. And yes I'll be quoting your sentences, as you've been quoting others. That's how you give examples to convey your thought and bring the reader to the same page, incase you haven't picked up on that yet. (<---example of being condescending ;) ) "
Yes but I am quite sure that I am not brainwashed, I think for myself, research for myself, and reach my own conclusions. I do not fall prey to propaganda and hype which seems so prevalent in our society today. And I am not claiming to be enlightened, i am simply claiming to have a better understanding of how brainwashing is used on modern society (since my knowledge in this area was challenged why is it bad for me to defend myself by explaining it?)
As far as quoting goes, I was merely pointing out that quotations that are taken out of context are not a way to build a fair argument (as you did with that statement).
"Are you telling me that isn't condescending or looking down upon others? In or out of 'context', you're taking a poke at those that don't hold your view. Seems kind of hypocritical. But just like all the posts I've placed here, that's my observation and opinion. Just like yours and everyone else's."
Hey i didn't open that door, I simply walked through it. if somebody wants to make a smart ass remark they should expect one in return. I wasnt "taking a poke" at people, i was poking back. I don't expect ANYBODY to hold my view. In fact I expect almost everybody to have some sort of opposing view to mine. Surprise surprise.
james:
"You still haven't said what brainwashing is, all you've done is give weak examples"
No, i gave you simple examples to demonstrate that I know what I am talking about. if you want to know more, do your own research. My intent with the examples was to prove to you that I indeed do know about this. If you know so much on the subject then share a little of your knowledge instead of calling everything I say "weak".
"It seems to me your idea of brainwashing is simply attempting to condition people, socially normalize them or influence them in just about *any* way. "
That is the only realistic way of brainwashing there is. If you know of anything other than that that may work permanently I would be interested to hear what you have to say.
"You are playing a very common semantic game. Under your definition you could easily be trying to brainwash me. "
Exactly. You are catching on. People use this all the time whether they realize it or not. It could be as simple as conditioning your spouse to leave the toilet seat down.
"1: Take a term with very negative connotations
2: Water down the definition to apply to things not sinister at all
3: Expect people to still react negatively to the original, more powerful definition."
You dont think these definitions are sinister at all? Does that mean you are ok with letting others think for you? I am sorry, I like to contorl my own thought, even if it's something as simple as product recognition. The very same techniques are used for things that are a lot more dangerous.
"You definition of brainwashing has very little relation to what any people commonly consider brainwashing, yet you still expect people to get all excited about it as if it maintained the common meaning. "
Whatever you think about the word has nothing to do with what it actually means. You could say the same about "UFOS" but technically every flying object you see that you havent identified is a UFO. And yes I am talking about brainwashing. Just because I have simplified it for you to understand, does not change the meaning of the word.
"An advertising jingle is *meant* to influence you, that is the entire point. We all know that, we all know what they are up to. Politician's speeches are MEANT to influence you, again no surprise. "
So what the fuck are you arguing with me for?
"You won't actually *define* brainwashing because you know that your definition will be too watered down to have any real meaning, especially if you stand by your earlier examples of being punished at school, or having a school newspaper not run an article by you. So editorial priveledge is now "brainwashing?"
This is what I would love to hear:
1: The definition of brainwashing
2: How being punished in school fits under that definition
3: How being punished in school is always a bad thing.
4: If being punished in school isn't always a bad thing, and IS brainwashing, how brainwashing itself is actually bad. "
Go back and read my goddamn posts. If you want a definition then go do some research on brainwashing and mind control and get back with me when you can grasp it. People like you are only here to fight. Go fight with somebody who gives a shit. Yes I am pissed now. When you manage to grow up and decide that you *might* actually learn something from people who have an opposing view to yours then you might have some chance of carrying on a discussion in some form. i am tired of honestly answering your rigged questions that are only designed to trap me into saying what you want me to say so that you can better me for some reason. Try AOL chat, I hear its great for that sort of thing. I *know* what you are doing and why you are angry. You want me in a corner, and I will not be cornered. I have played your silly game long enough. Run along now, i think I hear your mom calling.
PS Sitting in a corner is sensory depravation. Sitting in a jail cell to think about your actions is also sensory depravation. It doesnt matter if you did it or not, eventually you will convince yourself that you did do it. Either way it is mental punishment, which is certainly not going to fix the problem but merely conceal it. Yes I consider "brainwashing" to encompass anything that causes a person to change their mentality to conform to somebody elses standards or purposes.
#109
11/23/2002 (6:18 pm)
Well everyone was asking for it. ;)
#110
Dictionary.com lists your two defs from the American Heritage Dictionary. It also list a definition from Pinceton:
"forcible indoctrination into a new set of attitudes and beliefs"
And from a medical dictionary:
"Inducing an individual to modify attitudes and actions in certain directions through the application of various forms of psychological pressure or torture."
You can do a google search for the term to get an idea on how people use it. Generally it is when someone is isolated from outside influences and intensely indoctrinated, with access only to their brainwashers. The connotation of brainwashing is clearly sinister.
So I fail to see how how a newspaper excersizing editorial priveledge is "brainwashing." I would love to hear how. It isn't intense, it isn't forced, you aren't cut off from outside influences, it isn't prolonged. If an advertising is "brainwashing" you you can simply turn it off.
Persuasion is something very different. If you feel that merely trying to persuade someone is brainwashing them, I would point out all of my posts have been brainwashing, as have all the otehr posts in this thread, and 99% of all statements as well...
11/24/2002 (1:19 am)
Not quite.Dictionary.com lists your two defs from the American Heritage Dictionary. It also list a definition from Pinceton:
"forcible indoctrination into a new set of attitudes and beliefs"
And from a medical dictionary:
"Inducing an individual to modify attitudes and actions in certain directions through the application of various forms of psychological pressure or torture."
You can do a google search for the term to get an idea on how people use it. Generally it is when someone is isolated from outside influences and intensely indoctrinated, with access only to their brainwashers. The connotation of brainwashing is clearly sinister.
So I fail to see how how a newspaper excersizing editorial priveledge is "brainwashing." I would love to hear how. It isn't intense, it isn't forced, you aren't cut off from outside influences, it isn't prolonged. If an advertising is "brainwashing" you you can simply turn it off.
Persuasion is something very different. If you feel that merely trying to persuade someone is brainwashing them, I would point out all of my posts have been brainwashing, as have all the otehr posts in this thread, and 99% of all statements as well...
#111
And sitting in a corner is not sensory deprivation, because you still receive stimuli from your senses. It IS social deprivation, which is not the same thing. Just like being told to leave the seat down is not brainwashing. Such a loose definition of terms does indeed paint the world in very dark colors.
Here's a good question or three: If your posts are to be considered brainwashing, as you've admitted, then what makes you any better than the govt which supposedly does it? Is brainwashing okay if it is done for your opinions? If so, then why is brainwashing not okay for other ideas?
Or maybe brainwashing is okay in everyday life, such as conversations or arguments such as these. But then again, if brainwashing is never okay, then that, by extension, means that noone may ever tell anyone else anything contrary to what that person knows and believes.
That's a dangerous extrapolation, though, because some people believe that they can do things that interefere with another persons life. If it were brainwashing to change a person's mind, then what do we do about changing the mind of a person who wants to do things that harm others? Or is it us who must change and bend our lives around those who would do us harm? Should we then give up our freedoms to accomodate those who think differently than us and interfere with us so that we do not brainwash them?
By your definition of brainwashing, it is not always a bad thing, and should definitely be employed by every human on the face of the earth. It should be done by governments to control the criminal elements of their populations. It should be done by potential victims of crimes to prevent further commision of a crime. It should be used by doctors to influence people to be healthier. It should be used by parents to control their children so that they do not endanger themselves or others. And it should be used by teachers to enforce discipline in the classroom.
Hey, brainwashing ain't half bad after all... =)
11/24/2002 (5:40 am)
A good book outlining professional brainwashing and sensory deprivation would be Tom Clancy's "The Cardinal of the Kremlin", in which a spy is caught and put through it.And sitting in a corner is not sensory deprivation, because you still receive stimuli from your senses. It IS social deprivation, which is not the same thing. Just like being told to leave the seat down is not brainwashing. Such a loose definition of terms does indeed paint the world in very dark colors.
Here's a good question or three: If your posts are to be considered brainwashing, as you've admitted, then what makes you any better than the govt which supposedly does it? Is brainwashing okay if it is done for your opinions? If so, then why is brainwashing not okay for other ideas?
Or maybe brainwashing is okay in everyday life, such as conversations or arguments such as these. But then again, if brainwashing is never okay, then that, by extension, means that noone may ever tell anyone else anything contrary to what that person knows and believes.
That's a dangerous extrapolation, though, because some people believe that they can do things that interefere with another persons life. If it were brainwashing to change a person's mind, then what do we do about changing the mind of a person who wants to do things that harm others? Or is it us who must change and bend our lives around those who would do us harm? Should we then give up our freedoms to accomodate those who think differently than us and interfere with us so that we do not brainwash them?
By your definition of brainwashing, it is not always a bad thing, and should definitely be employed by every human on the face of the earth. It should be done by governments to control the criminal elements of their populations. It should be done by potential victims of crimes to prevent further commision of a crime. It should be used by doctors to influence people to be healthier. It should be used by parents to control their children so that they do not endanger themselves or others. And it should be used by teachers to enforce discipline in the classroom.
Hey, brainwashing ain't half bad after all... =)
#112
No, I'm pulling the information from the numerous books I've read on wars. The Korean Conflict being one of them. The NK and CCF had use many forms of torture to gain the results they had wanted, which was particularly successful on the younger G.I.'s. They death marched them to POW camps, starved them and kept them in horrid living conditions (many died from exhaustion and exposure), barraged them with propoganda and misinformation, tortured CO's for information and then killed them to sap the morale of the lower ranks, etc. These are only the ones that survived, it was well known that the NK troops were just killing POWs throughout the beginning of the war. So if you were captured, you knew you'd be tortured and killed. The CCF had eliminated the slaughtering of POW's once they took control of the camps, but began rigorous 're-education' of the POWs. They broke the minds and wills of many and made them doubt their beliefs. After the war, investigations turned up approximately 400-500 reports of misconduct many of which led to convictions of collaboration with the enemy and about 30 people refused to return to the US and defected. Sorry, but these are all well documented facts from both sides of the conflict. Pretty much any book you pick up on the Korean conflict touches base with it.
11/24/2002 (10:58 am)
"Like I said before, you're referring to countless b-movies for your info and not real brainwashing techniques."No, I'm pulling the information from the numerous books I've read on wars. The Korean Conflict being one of them. The NK and CCF had use many forms of torture to gain the results they had wanted, which was particularly successful on the younger G.I.'s. They death marched them to POW camps, starved them and kept them in horrid living conditions (many died from exhaustion and exposure), barraged them with propoganda and misinformation, tortured CO's for information and then killed them to sap the morale of the lower ranks, etc. These are only the ones that survived, it was well known that the NK troops were just killing POWs throughout the beginning of the war. So if you were captured, you knew you'd be tortured and killed. The CCF had eliminated the slaughtering of POW's once they took control of the camps, but began rigorous 're-education' of the POWs. They broke the minds and wills of many and made them doubt their beliefs. After the war, investigations turned up approximately 400-500 reports of misconduct many of which led to convictions of collaboration with the enemy and about 30 people refused to return to the US and defected. Sorry, but these are all well documented facts from both sides of the conflict. Pretty much any book you pick up on the Korean conflict touches base with it.
#113
11/24/2002 (11:16 am)
Also, no one took a poke at you initially. Ted was clearly voicing his opposition to Alex's statements at the start of the thread. Alex was the only one who stated he didn't care how many people had died. You took it upon yourself to defend him and strike at Ted's opinion.
#114
"...the use of key-words to induce a slight degree of panic"
...Entorphy keeps insisting on useing the word "brainwashing"...useing this "keyword" in relation to sociatal conditioning...Entrophy isn't just trying to subtley "brainwash" us...he even spelled out how he is doing it!
And Entrophy dosn't feel that he is "condesending, or enlightened...he just feels that he has a better understanding"
...notice he wrote "better understanding"...that is enlightenment...Yet he says the label doesn't stick to him, despite showing his feelings clearly indicate otherwise...which is a very condisenting additude to take...
Not that any of this really matters...I just like to argue :)
11/24/2002 (2:41 pm)
Some spindoctoring:"...the use of key-words to induce a slight degree of panic"
...Entorphy keeps insisting on useing the word "brainwashing"...useing this "keyword" in relation to sociatal conditioning...Entrophy isn't just trying to subtley "brainwash" us...he even spelled out how he is doing it!
And Entrophy dosn't feel that he is "condesending, or enlightened...he just feels that he has a better understanding"
...notice he wrote "better understanding"...that is enlightenment...Yet he says the label doesn't stick to him, despite showing his feelings clearly indicate otherwise...which is a very condisenting additude to take...
Not that any of this really matters...I just like to argue :)
#115
"Here's a good question or three: If your posts are to be considered brainwashing, as you've admitted, then what makes you any better than the govt which supposedly does it? Is brainwashing okay if it is done for your opinions? If so, then why is brainwashing not okay for other ideas?
Or maybe brainwashing is okay in everyday life, such as conversations or arguments such as these. But then again, if brainwashing is never okay, then that, by extension, means that noone may ever tell anyone else anything contrary to what that person knows and believes. "
I agree, it's not always a bad thing. In fact you could even brainwash yourself if you wanted to, in a self-help sort of way. I am sure we have all done it (I know i have). Perhaps I have thrown the word around a little much, but i do consider all of these an intrusion on one's own mental processes, which when used negatively give rise to the common interpretation of the word "brainwashing". If there were another word which was a bit more neutral but still encompassed all of these things (even at extremes) I would use it. All I really wanted to point out in the first place is that I think it's a good practice to examine your own thoughts and why you think them. i don't mean that in a hostile way because I do that myself all the time to examine whether the things society tell me are genuinely true or helpful, or simply a way to control the masses. Another term that people find distasteful is "mind control", it brings to mind the same meaning as "brainwashing" but I take it to mean more of a personal control over one's own mind, rather than others.
"By your definition of brainwashing, it is not always a bad thing, and should definitely be employed by every human on the face of the earth. It should be done by governments to control the criminal elements of their populations. It should be done by potential victims of crimes to prevent further commision of a crime. It should be used by doctors to influence people to be healthier. It should be used by parents to control their children so that they do not endanger themselves or others. And it should be used by teachers to enforce discipline in the classroom. "
Exactly, and it IS done. It's not always bad, but sometimes people might have good intentions and go about it wrong, or they might have bad intentions and use a situation that SOUNDS good for their own benefit(like a psychiatrist who doesnt really try to help their patient and just wants the 120 bucks an hour). If people are willing to except it fine, but I at least think they should realize what is going on for it to be ok. One thing that worrys me is the tendency for people to be lazy and just want to get something done and out of the way, which might cause the subject to be shuffled around for the rest of their life in an endless blur of not knowing what is a real solution and what is not (such as mental patients, people who go to therapists, and the like).
MSW said:
"Not that any of this really matters...I just like to argue :)"
No shit. Everything you said either isn't true or doesnt make sense. I won't even dignify your babblings with a response.
james said:
"So I fail to see how how a newspaper excersizing editorial priveledge is "brainwashing." I would love to hear how. It isn't intense, it isn't forced, you aren't cut off from outside influences, it isn't prolonged. If an advertising is "brainwashing" you you can simply turn it off. "
Well, it's not really, but it can be used to keep information from being contradictory to your cause. Since a lot of our mainstream media companies are owned by corporations that have vested interest in the news, they tend to shy away from stories that are detrimental to their ownings and that may cut into their profits. A lot of times you can't really blame them, especially as lawsuit-happy as our country has become, but they are still committing the sin by omission.
11/24/2002 (3:41 pm)
Ted says:"Here's a good question or three: If your posts are to be considered brainwashing, as you've admitted, then what makes you any better than the govt which supposedly does it? Is brainwashing okay if it is done for your opinions? If so, then why is brainwashing not okay for other ideas?
Or maybe brainwashing is okay in everyday life, such as conversations or arguments such as these. But then again, if brainwashing is never okay, then that, by extension, means that noone may ever tell anyone else anything contrary to what that person knows and believes. "
I agree, it's not always a bad thing. In fact you could even brainwash yourself if you wanted to, in a self-help sort of way. I am sure we have all done it (I know i have). Perhaps I have thrown the word around a little much, but i do consider all of these an intrusion on one's own mental processes, which when used negatively give rise to the common interpretation of the word "brainwashing". If there were another word which was a bit more neutral but still encompassed all of these things (even at extremes) I would use it. All I really wanted to point out in the first place is that I think it's a good practice to examine your own thoughts and why you think them. i don't mean that in a hostile way because I do that myself all the time to examine whether the things society tell me are genuinely true or helpful, or simply a way to control the masses. Another term that people find distasteful is "mind control", it brings to mind the same meaning as "brainwashing" but I take it to mean more of a personal control over one's own mind, rather than others.
"By your definition of brainwashing, it is not always a bad thing, and should definitely be employed by every human on the face of the earth. It should be done by governments to control the criminal elements of their populations. It should be done by potential victims of crimes to prevent further commision of a crime. It should be used by doctors to influence people to be healthier. It should be used by parents to control their children so that they do not endanger themselves or others. And it should be used by teachers to enforce discipline in the classroom. "
Exactly, and it IS done. It's not always bad, but sometimes people might have good intentions and go about it wrong, or they might have bad intentions and use a situation that SOUNDS good for their own benefit(like a psychiatrist who doesnt really try to help their patient and just wants the 120 bucks an hour). If people are willing to except it fine, but I at least think they should realize what is going on for it to be ok. One thing that worrys me is the tendency for people to be lazy and just want to get something done and out of the way, which might cause the subject to be shuffled around for the rest of their life in an endless blur of not knowing what is a real solution and what is not (such as mental patients, people who go to therapists, and the like).
MSW said:
"Not that any of this really matters...I just like to argue :)"
No shit. Everything you said either isn't true or doesnt make sense. I won't even dignify your babblings with a response.
james said:
"So I fail to see how how a newspaper excersizing editorial priveledge is "brainwashing." I would love to hear how. It isn't intense, it isn't forced, you aren't cut off from outside influences, it isn't prolonged. If an advertising is "brainwashing" you you can simply turn it off. "
Well, it's not really, but it can be used to keep information from being contradictory to your cause. Since a lot of our mainstream media companies are owned by corporations that have vested interest in the news, they tend to shy away from stories that are detrimental to their ownings and that may cut into their profits. A lot of times you can't really blame them, especially as lawsuit-happy as our country has become, but they are still committing the sin by omission.
#116
Try to use the word "Conditioning" instead of "Brainwashing"...it covers the same bases, but doesn't have the exact same negitive association.
11/24/2002 (6:43 pm)
Quote:
If there were another word which was a bit more neutral but still encompassed all of these things (even at extremes) I would use it.
Try to use the word "Conditioning" instead of "Brainwashing"...it covers the same bases, but doesn't have the exact same negitive association.
#117
Social Indoctrination which the military uses is a subset and is slightly less damaging.
For the advertising campaign, yes you can change the channel but how long does it take to run into another commercial? Its been estimated the total amount of advertising compared to actual content is quiet high.
However, does this really have anything to do with a Dept thats fully controlled by the Executive?
11/24/2002 (9:41 pm)
Forceful conditioning is the keyword, and yes thats a bad thing.Social Indoctrination which the military uses is a subset and is slightly less damaging.
For the advertising campaign, yes you can change the channel but how long does it take to run into another commercial? Its been estimated the total amount of advertising compared to actual content is quiet high.
However, does this really have anything to do with a Dept thats fully controlled by the Executive?
#118
11/25/2002 (9:29 am)
I give up! You know Entropy, you are right. We are all mindless zombies that bark whenever the Pavlov of our Society rings his bell. We use advertisements to determine what product to buy, we pay taxes, we vote, we watch TV that "THEY" decide to produce, we go to "THEIR" schools to learn, we go online via "THEIR" servers. SHAME ON US! We are slaves to every little way the governemnt controls us. Let's just not buy things, let's not educate ourselves. Let us twist every little thing that people do and reveal the "REAL" agenda behind everything. Go ahead and live your life afraid of the governmental steamroller, and die in several decades a free man, never really understanding that you were free. I got way too much to do with my life than worry about the motivation behind every little thing that happens in our lives. Go ahead and take everything you have for granted, in the grand scheme, people that just bitch and moan don't change things anyway.
#119
Do you think that the Bush administration would even think twice about taking away our freedoms? Let's take a quote from George W. Bush himself:
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
-- George W. Bush, complaining about a website (www.gwbush.com) critical of him, at an Austin Press Conference, May 21, 1999.
I'll finish with a quote from Noam Chomsky:
"Everyone's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: Stop participating in it."-Noam Chomsky on the double-standard of the US's "war on terrorism".
Btw, for any of you that are under the impression that the US is a big fluffy dog that would never harm anyone unless protecting its children, read some Noam Chomsky (especially his book "9/11"). Welcome to reality,
11/25/2002 (2:44 pm)
I lost a family friend in the WTC attacks... I also lost a friend when the US military bombed a village of innocent people in Afghanistan... No one will be crying for the latter.Do you think that the Bush administration would even think twice about taking away our freedoms? Let's take a quote from George W. Bush himself:
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
-- George W. Bush, complaining about a website (www.gwbush.com) critical of him, at an Austin Press Conference, May 21, 1999.
I'll finish with a quote from Noam Chomsky:
"Everyone's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: Stop participating in it."-Noam Chomsky on the double-standard of the US's "war on terrorism".
Btw, for any of you that are under the impression that the US is a big fluffy dog that would never harm anyone unless protecting its children, read some Noam Chomsky (especially his book "9/11"). Welcome to reality,
Torque 3D Owner Ted Southard