You must pay $5000 for every casual game
by Arsen Gnatkivskyi · in Torque Game Engine · 10/12/2008 (2:19 pm) · 34 replies
For people who are developing casual games by means of TGB and planning to distribute them by means of casual games distributors. (Big Fish, RealArcade).
I want to turn community's attention to one unpleasant moment which can be found in TGB EULA (Indie and Commercial) and which can cause considerable and unexpected for you expenses or your games' benefit loss.
So, first of all look at EULA point 2.b.
Here we can see the list of companies which can help you distribute your game created on the basis of TGB. It's attractive, isn't it? Absolutely it is. But it is attractive only till the time you start dealing with these companies and ask them to distribute your game. Then you will find out that these companies (at least two of them for sure - Big Fish and RealArcade) have the demand:your game must not include any website links.
Citation from RealArcade:
gamedevs.realarcade.com/GameSubmission/faq.jsp
But the above demand conflicts with the point 4.c.i. EULA
So, having acquired Indie or Commercial license TGB you will not be able to distribute your game through the distributors listed in EULA 2.b.
I used the given e-mail licensing@garagegames.com to find out how much I have to pay for waiving from the www.garagegames.com link in the credits.
There was an answer from Davey Jackson ( www.garagegames.com/my/home/view.profile.php?qid=54612 ) who explained that it is impossible to waive only the link in the credits but it has the possibility of waiveng the link, full screen Torque Game Builder logo in the start up and inscription: "This game is powered by Torque Game Builder". All that would cost $5000 per each game from which the link was supposed to be waived!!!
That means if you are planning to publish your game on Big Fish or RealArcade (I am dead sure there are other ones) and you are using for this TGB, get ready to pay $5000 for each game!!!
I want to state once again. I wanted to remove only link, all the rest from point 4 EULA may be present.
Personally I am not going to pay $5000 for waiving because I consider this price unreasonable and unacceptable.
So it is obvious that my cooperation with these publishers is abortive which will lead up to loss. If this question is not resoluted further games will have to be developed on the basis of different engine.
To finish I've got the question to GarageGames team.
Is that link in the credits so worth for developers to waive from TGB? Do you really believe that a potential game developer having seen the inscription "This game is powered by Torque Game Builder" will not be that smart and use google searching words "Torque Game Builder"!?
I am absolutely sure when you composed this demand (EULA 4.c.i) you didn't know that this would cause overwhelming obstacles for lots of game developers. So I would propose to remove from EULA point 4.c.i.
I want to turn community's attention to one unpleasant moment which can be found in TGB EULA (Indie and Commercial) and which can cause considerable and unexpected for you expenses or your games' benefit loss.
So, first of all look at EULA point 2.b.
Quote:Licensee may have the games published on PC, Macintosh, or Linux
through any downloadable channel or retail distribution (CD / DVD box sales)
including but not limited to self-publishing, Games for Windows, Steam,
Direct2Drive, RealArcade , Yahoo! Games, PopCap, Big Fish ,
MSN Games, Pogo. Licensee does not have to offer the Games to
GarageGames for publication.
Here we can see the list of companies which can help you distribute your game created on the basis of TGB. It's attractive, isn't it? Absolutely it is. But it is attractive only till the time you start dealing with these companies and ask them to distribute your game. Then you will find out that these companies (at least two of them for sure - Big Fish and RealArcade) have the demand:your game must not include any website links.
Citation from RealArcade:
gamedevs.realarcade.com/GameSubmission/faq.jsp
Quote:
All URL's (hot or cold) must be removed from the game:
1. Developer and Publisher links
2. Upsell buttons
3. Text weblinks (example: www.website.com)"
But the above demand conflicts with the point 4.c.i. EULA
Quote:(c) Licensee agrees to include in the "About" box or in the credits screen:
(i) a link to www.garagegames.com ... This requirement may be waived for an
additional fee. Contact licensing@garagegames.com for details.
So, having acquired Indie or Commercial license TGB you will not be able to distribute your game through the distributors listed in EULA 2.b.
I used the given e-mail licensing@garagegames.com to find out how much I have to pay for waiving from the www.garagegames.com link in the credits.
There was an answer from Davey Jackson ( www.garagegames.com/my/home/view.profile.php?qid=54612 ) who explained that it is impossible to waive only the link in the credits but it has the possibility of waiveng the link, full screen Torque Game Builder logo in the start up and inscription: "This game is powered by Torque Game Builder". All that would cost $5000 per each game from which the link was supposed to be waived!!!
That means if you are planning to publish your game on Big Fish or RealArcade (I am dead sure there are other ones) and you are using for this TGB, get ready to pay $5000 for each game!!!
I want to state once again. I wanted to remove only link, all the rest from point 4 EULA may be present.
Personally I am not going to pay $5000 for waiving because I consider this price unreasonable and unacceptable.
So it is obvious that my cooperation with these publishers is abortive which will lead up to loss. If this question is not resoluted further games will have to be developed on the basis of different engine.
To finish I've got the question to GarageGames team.
Is that link in the credits so worth for developers to waive from TGB? Do you really believe that a potential game developer having seen the inscription "This game is powered by Torque Game Builder" will not be that smart and use google searching words "Torque Game Builder"!?
I am absolutely sure when you composed this demand (EULA 4.c.i) you didn't know that this would cause overwhelming obstacles for lots of game developers. So I would propose to remove from EULA point 4.c.i.
Thread is locked
#22
"These portals are enforcing evil rules, therefore who cares if GarageGames is also".
The question here isn't whether the portals are justified in doing what they are doing. They have the upper hand, they are not going to change their rules.
GarageGames is supposed to be an indie friendly company. I think allowing an exception for certain portal sites is not an outrageous request.
As someone earlier pointed out, anyone serious about making a game will see the GarageGame's splash screen and will have no trouble finding the website without a clickable URL.
10/13/2008 (3:21 pm)
Seems like people are basically saying:"These portals are enforcing evil rules, therefore who cares if GarageGames is also".
The question here isn't whether the portals are justified in doing what they are doing. They have the upper hand, they are not going to change their rules.
GarageGames is supposed to be an indie friendly company. I think allowing an exception for certain portal sites is not an outrageous request.
As someone earlier pointed out, anyone serious about making a game will see the GarageGame's splash screen and will have no trouble finding the website without a clickable URL.
#23
"However, personal attacks are unprofessional and counterproductive."
It was a personal defence.
10/13/2008 (3:23 pm)
Michael:"However, personal attacks are unprofessional and counterproductive."
It was a personal defence.
#24
One positive thing about Blitz's hands-off licensing model is that they don't have to worry about licensing outside of people pirating their languages. Makes it much more friendly on the legal department!
10/13/2008 (3:29 pm)
One of the issues is that portal requirements can change as the casual space changes, which can quickly invalidate legal provisions in licensing. That is one of the reasons that working with developers who have publishing contracts available to rework the licensing on a per-project basis is much more viable.One positive thing about Blitz's hands-off licensing model is that they don't have to worry about licensing outside of people pirating their languages. Makes it much more friendly on the legal department!
#25
What is the big deal of including a link in it anyway? I would them to expect to let us include the following links:
GG
Publisher
Your own game website.
10/13/2008 (3:29 pm)
I do not think that GG is to blame. I think that the 'Big Portal Company' as Micheal put it, is to blame. They would rather lose money not publishing a game because there is a link in it.What is the big deal of including a link in it anyway? I would them to expect to let us include the following links:
GG
Publisher
Your own game website.
#26
Well, I have no problem with putting a TGB logo and a splash screen in my game. There is no reason why I don't want to do that. And when I bought TGB (it was called Torque 2D), it was the only demand as I remember - to put a logo into game.
However, portals are very specific about the links. And I have to say, they are very, _very_ specific about that. No external links, and you are not allowed even to have a text within the game that looks like "blah-blah-blah.com". I can't say that I agree with such agressive requirements, but the truth is that the portals do most of sales.
Peter:
Thanks! You said exactly what I am trying to say in a much better and shorter way.
10/13/2008 (3:31 pm)
Davey:Well, I have no problem with putting a TGB logo and a splash screen in my game. There is no reason why I don't want to do that. And when I bought TGB (it was called Torque 2D), it was the only demand as I remember - to put a logo into game.
However, portals are very specific about the links. And I have to say, they are very, _very_ specific about that. No external links, and you are not allowed even to have a text within the game that looks like "blah-blah-blah.com". I can't say that I agree with such agressive requirements, but the truth is that the portals do most of sales.
Peter:
Thanks! You said exactly what I am trying to say in a much better and shorter way.
#27
Big portals have more than 100 game submissions every day. Why should they care about your specific product? You can't blame them, they bring lots of customers and they have a right to set the rules.
And their position is "we don't want to promote the other websites between our customers" sounds reasonable to me. They are working hard to get the customers, why should they lost them?
10/13/2008 (3:35 pm)
Tyler:Big portals have more than 100 game submissions every day. Why should they care about your specific product? You can't blame them, they bring lots of customers and they have a right to set the rules.
And their position is "we don't want to promote the other websites between our customers" sounds reasonable to me. They are working hard to get the customers, why should they lost them?
#28
Tomorrow they could appear with a new demand of removing the splash screens, and we would read you here complaining with GG because you are not willing to see the root of the problem!
10/13/2008 (3:56 pm)
Still makes no sense.Tomorrow they could appear with a new demand of removing the splash screens, and we would read you here complaining with GG because you are not willing to see the root of the problem!
#29
The root of the problem is that when I buy the engine, I'd like to be sure that I will have no problem with any demands from the big distributors. No matter how stupid I believe they are. Or why to buy something that you can't use to make money? Its not a good deal to buy the engine just to make games for yourself and for the friends.
There is a proverb - only the one who pay can order the music. Big portals do huge sales of casual games. That is why they are free to demand anything they want.
We are still free to decide do we want to work with the portals or not. And as for me, I don't see a reason to make a game if it won't be published on major portals. And if the EULA issues are not allowing me to do that - the best solution is to switch to another engine with the more suitable EULA. Or am I wrong?
Dave:
I love the TGB. I don't want to switch from it. So I want to know my options about the in-game link. Dave, if you believe its a matter of a personal discussion - write me at kostya@emotionrays.com. I have no reason to bring our discussion to public, but I need to make a decision about the game engine.
10/13/2008 (4:09 pm)
Novack:The root of the problem is that when I buy the engine, I'd like to be sure that I will have no problem with any demands from the big distributors. No matter how stupid I believe they are. Or why to buy something that you can't use to make money? Its not a good deal to buy the engine just to make games for yourself and for the friends.
There is a proverb - only the one who pay can order the music. Big portals do huge sales of casual games. That is why they are free to demand anything they want.
We are still free to decide do we want to work with the portals or not. And as for me, I don't see a reason to make a game if it won't be published on major portals. And if the EULA issues are not allowing me to do that - the best solution is to switch to another engine with the more suitable EULA. Or am I wrong?
Dave:
I love the TGB. I don't want to switch from it. So I want to know my options about the in-game link. Dave, if you believe its a matter of a personal discussion - write me at kostya@emotionrays.com. I have no reason to bring our discussion to public, but I need to make a decision about the game engine.
#30
Form the sound of this it sounds like they are handing you a silver platter.
After reading some of the content on the RealArcade website and this comment, there is no doubt I could make this work. If I were you, I would not air this out anymore in a public forum and go back to private discussions with GG and RealArcade and publish your game.
If you can't make this work, then I seriously suggest you stick to creating games and hire someone to take care of working out these details for you.
That's $5000 and at $15 (estimate) that is about 333 games. If you can't sell that many games with all those publishers (remember, you can still make money from the sites that do not require the link to be removed and pay the fee) then the cost of $5000 is a mute point because you are going to have to sell a LOT of games to make a living! I hope you have other income!
10/13/2008 (4:13 pm)
@ArsenForm the sound of this it sounds like they are handing you a silver platter.
Quote:I had hoped the same would be the case for your studio as my last proposal included not only a decrease in price, but also the ability to pay your balance over time.
After reading some of the content on the RealArcade website and this comment, there is no doubt I could make this work. If I were you, I would not air this out anymore in a public forum and go back to private discussions with GG and RealArcade and publish your game.
If you can't make this work, then I seriously suggest you stick to creating games and hire someone to take care of working out these details for you.
That's $5000 and at $15 (estimate) that is about 333 games. If you can't sell that many games with all those publishers (remember, you can still make money from the sites that do not require the link to be removed and pay the fee) then the cost of $5000 is a mute point because you are going to have to sell a LOT of games to make a living! I hope you have other income!
#31
What you are saying are not very correct about casual games. If Arsen is not talking about the casual game - then yes, you right. If he is talking about the casual game, then going to the sites that doesn't have any demands is a straight way to lose. The problem is that the total month revenue from all these websites will be MUCH lower, than a month revenue from one big portal. Unfortunately, this is how it works now =(
And big publishers are usually offering you about $5 per copy. So $5000 = 1000 copies sold, and I didn't count the taxes.
But despite of that, some people are making $50-60k on a single game every month on big portals. And from my experience, a big portal offers you at least 20 times higher revenue, than a few hundreds of soft archives together.
However, there are 2 problems:
1) You need to remove links from the game _before_ it start to generate any revenue
2) Nobody guarantee you huge amount of sales. It depends from a game that you offer.
Which makes the idea of loaning the $5000 quite risky.
10/13/2008 (4:22 pm)
Randy:What you are saying are not very correct about casual games. If Arsen is not talking about the casual game - then yes, you right. If he is talking about the casual game, then going to the sites that doesn't have any demands is a straight way to lose. The problem is that the total month revenue from all these websites will be MUCH lower, than a month revenue from one big portal. Unfortunately, this is how it works now =(
And big publishers are usually offering you about $5 per copy. So $5000 = 1000 copies sold, and I didn't count the taxes.
But despite of that, some people are making $50-60k on a single game every month on big portals. And from my experience, a big portal offers you at least 20 times higher revenue, than a few hundreds of soft archives together.
However, there are 2 problems:
1) You need to remove links from the game _before_ it start to generate any revenue
2) Nobody guarantee you huge amount of sales. It depends from a game that you offer.
Which makes the idea of loaning the $5000 quite risky.
#32
Exactly!! Thats the reason why it is absurd on complaining to the engine maker, when in fact the problem is YOU giving the right to the publisher to set any ridiculous rule you may imagine.
The hipotesis remains! What would happend if tomorrow your publisher enforces you to remove ANY reference to other tools?
Following your current logic, you should -again- complain because GG doesnt allow you to remove the splash screens.
10/13/2008 (4:40 pm)
Quote:Nobody guarantee you huge amount of sales. It depends from a game that you offer.
Exactly!! Thats the reason why it is absurd on complaining to the engine maker, when in fact the problem is YOU giving the right to the publisher to set any ridiculous rule you may imagine.
The hipotesis remains! What would happend if tomorrow your publisher enforces you to remove ANY reference to other tools?
Following your current logic, you should -again- complain because GG doesnt allow you to remove the splash screens.
#33
You + Game Done That Big Portal Wants To Carry + Work Something Out = No Problem
10/13/2008 (4:40 pm)
The equation seems to be:You + Game Done That Big Portal Wants To Carry + Work Something Out = No Problem
#34
That's all I am going to say in this thread. I personally believe it should be locked. It serves no purpose.
10/13/2008 (5:17 pm)
Quote:Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.Davey, you made yourself perfectly clear, multiple times. It seems some people Just don't want to listen.
That's all I am going to say in this thread. I personally believe it should be locked. It serves no purpose.
#35
10/13/2008 (5:28 pm)
Agreed. 
Torque 3D Owner Davey Jackson
Default Studio Name
I was discussing a reasonable compromise with Arsen, he didn't like our offer, so rather than resolve it with us directly, he took it to the court of public opinion. Our door is still open to him, and to anyone else who has a serious offer from a publisher, to work out a reasonable solution. But there are real costs for us to draft custom agreements and we've been very upfront with our standard terms of use. As for removing this requirement from our standard EULA, we've tried that in the past, and found that despite the studio's best intentions, unless there is a monetary reason for the splash screen to be in place, the publisher will force you to remove all external references and links.
The real issue here is not GG putting the finger on indies and saying "oh, hey we have this hidden fee." This issue is portals who are so covetous of their customers that they don't want any other property mentioned but their own.
Arsen, is not the first customer to publish one of our games through Big Fish. And in each of the previous cases a workable solution was found for the producer, publisher, and engine provider.