NextGen Gaming In TGEA
by Gerhard Botha · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 09/21/2008 (5:44 am) · 52 replies
Hi,
I want to start a new topic on next-gen gaming in TGEA.
Please post your ideas/discussions on things like,
Does TGEA provide an extendible basis to work from?
What new features are important to add to TGEA?
How does TGEA compare to the Crytek Engine and UE3 engine?
When are we going to see someone make something like GOW/GOW2 using TGEA (very possible if you ask me)
I have had many arguments over a beer or two about technology requirements to make certain games like
the ones using UE3 for example. My basic thought is that you can use UE3 tech and still end up making a crap game, in fact just go look on gamespot at some of the new releases and you'll see what I mean. A good game engine will provide certain 'expected' functionality like a rendering pipeline, collision detection system etc. but any unique kind of game usually have unique requirements which does not come in an 'out of the box' solution implying a development effort on the game developer's side.
It seems TGEA has a bit of a hobbyist's only engine' mentality attached to it, which I find quite astonishing! Granted, it will be difficult to convince developers with a budget for engine acquisition not to use something like UE3 giving the massive amount of success stories tied to it but it obviously comes at a steep price!
Anyways, I think you get the idea. Myself and Ruan van der Westhuizen has embarked on a mission to investigate next-gen possibilities in TGEA since the start of this year and have done some things in our spare time using TGEA.
Go have a look at our blogs,
tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com and ruanwest.blogspot.com
I want to start a new topic on next-gen gaming in TGEA.
Please post your ideas/discussions on things like,
Does TGEA provide an extendible basis to work from?
What new features are important to add to TGEA?
How does TGEA compare to the Crytek Engine and UE3 engine?
When are we going to see someone make something like GOW/GOW2 using TGEA (very possible if you ask me)
I have had many arguments over a beer or two about technology requirements to make certain games like
the ones using UE3 for example. My basic thought is that you can use UE3 tech and still end up making a crap game, in fact just go look on gamespot at some of the new releases and you'll see what I mean. A good game engine will provide certain 'expected' functionality like a rendering pipeline, collision detection system etc. but any unique kind of game usually have unique requirements which does not come in an 'out of the box' solution implying a development effort on the game developer's side.
It seems TGEA has a bit of a hobbyist's only engine' mentality attached to it, which I find quite astonishing! Granted, it will be difficult to convince developers with a budget for engine acquisition not to use something like UE3 giving the massive amount of success stories tied to it but it obviously comes at a steep price!
Anyways, I think you get the idea. Myself and Ruan van der Westhuizen has embarked on a mission to investigate next-gen possibilities in TGEA since the start of this year and have done some things in our spare time using TGEA.
Go have a look at our blogs,
tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com and ruanwest.blogspot.com
#22
I'm especially interested in the changes to the custom materials class and the render target system that you have made.
09/23/2008 (6:18 am)
Actually I think that the question keeps getting dodged here. Art these enhancements going to be made available back to the community? Every time this is asked the subject gets changed. Honestly this is something I would pay for as long as it is reasonable. and well maintained. Though I must admit It would be nice to see GG get it from you and make it part of the engine. I'm especially interested in the changes to the custom materials class and the render target system that you have made.
#23
09/23/2008 (8:00 am)
If GG bought it it would certainly save hundreds of us mangling it into our downloaded versions (perhaps repeatedly for each minor release of TGEA). 
#24
Great work.
09/23/2008 (8:31 am)
WOW Gerhard - stunning work there, absolutely stunning. I wish it was an area I had the skill to be able to enhance the functionalities already provided - like many others I'd be sure interested to see additions like these being available to the community either as a free resource or an add-on pack for purchase.Great work.
#25
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Does TGEA provide an extendible basis to work from?
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I think it does, like Tom said because you have access to the source code.
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What new features are important to add to TGEA?
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I think I covered this already!!!
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How does TGEA compare to the Crytek Engine and UE3 engine?
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As far as features it not on the same level (out-the-box). With talented programmers like Gerhard, it possible to be as good or even better.
GG has something that I don't think unreal and Crytek's engine has and that is a great community and even better content packs!
Quote:
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It seems TGEA has a bit of a hobbyist's only engine' mentality attached to it
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In a sense I think it does, only because of the limited features compared to some of the other engines. It seems Torque X and XNA is suited more for surious projects.
That's not saying TGEA can't be, Marble Blast proves that.
Gerhard your work never ceases to amaze me. You truely are raising TGEA to the next level, keep up the fantastic work!!!
09/23/2008 (11:51 am)
Sorry for the length of my last post, I got a little "type happy". I was just trying to bring the community together to get some of these ideas we as a community have. So we can get something done!Quote:
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Does TGEA provide an extendible basis to work from?
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I think it does, like Tom said because you have access to the source code.
Quote:
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What new features are important to add to TGEA?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I covered this already!!!
Quote:
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How does TGEA compare to the Crytek Engine and UE3 engine?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as features it not on the same level (out-the-box). With talented programmers like Gerhard, it possible to be as good or even better.
GG has something that I don't think unreal and Crytek's engine has and that is a great community and even better content packs!
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems TGEA has a bit of a hobbyist's only engine' mentality attached to it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a sense I think it does, only because of the limited features compared to some of the other engines. It seems Torque X and XNA is suited more for surious projects.
That's not saying TGEA can't be, Marble Blast proves that.
Gerhard your work never ceases to amaze me. You truely are raising TGEA to the next level, keep up the fantastic work!!!
#26
What is the Crytek or Unreal community? The modders that don't have access to the source?
Of course they do have private forums/mailing lists for people who have licensed the engines. I figure the single to noise ratio is really good... for sure better than GG.com... but you know that politics and the that everyone is too busy on their own projects to help gets in the way.
In fact when i was a Gamebryo licensee the private forums were a ghost town... zero community to speak of. Just a few employees helping me with my lonely posts.
In many ways having a community of hobbyist mixed in with professionals is one of Torque's greatest strengths.
09/23/2008 (12:39 pm)
Kory brings up a good point.What is the Crytek or Unreal community? The modders that don't have access to the source?
Of course they do have private forums/mailing lists for people who have licensed the engines. I figure the single to noise ratio is really good... for sure better than GG.com... but you know that politics and the that everyone is too busy on their own projects to help gets in the way.
In fact when i was a Gamebryo licensee the private forums were a ghost town... zero community to speak of. Just a few employees helping me with my lonely posts.
In many ways having a community of hobbyist mixed in with professionals is one of Torque's greatest strengths.
Quote:It seems Torque X and XNA is suited more for surious projects.You lost me on that one Kory.
#27
@Tom
I have friends using Unreal that complain about the same quiet boat. The mod communities are always jumping, though.
09/23/2008 (1:33 pm)
Kory brings up several good points, though with the breadth of their discussion, I think they should have been in a separate thread with links to this one (and others) as a strong start for community action.@Tom
I have friends using Unreal that complain about the same quiet boat. The mod communities are always jumping, though.
#28
personally I'm impressed with the things that have been done on tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com But what is the point? Good for him. But How does this benefit TGEA or the GG community? Unless he is gonna share the code back with the community then what is the point? All of the awesome code in the world getting done to the engine doesn't mean squat if it doesn't make it back into the engine for everyone to take advantage of. Or at least at a minimum get released as an add on.
09/23/2008 (2:20 pm)
There is a thread discussing some of what has been going on in this thread here personally I'm impressed with the things that have been done on tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com But what is the point? Good for him. But How does this benefit TGEA or the GG community? Unless he is gonna share the code back with the community then what is the point? All of the awesome code in the world getting done to the engine doesn't mean squat if it doesn't make it back into the engine for everyone to take advantage of. Or at least at a minimum get released as an add on.
#29
It is fairly easy to hack around with code and get cool things into the engine (if you are experienced). It is even fairly straight-forward to to hack in stuff that is useful for your specific game. It is a lot more work to generalize your work into something that is appropriate for every one to use especially if you are targeting all of the hardware and gameplay types that TGEA currently supports.
Honestly, while it would be awesome to see some of this stuff released to the community, I would be much more excited to see him take it and apply it to a really amazing game/demo/prototype. Turning this stuff into resources could easily derail their game and send his team into a spiral of tech and support. We've seen this happen quite often.
Could you imagine the kind of games Jeff Faust, John Kabus, or Melv May could have shipped by now if they hadn't had to spend so much time on their tech?
09/23/2008 (2:50 pm)
Sometimes it is just fun to see what kind of cool things other people are doing and to share the stuff you are excited about with others.It is fairly easy to hack around with code and get cool things into the engine (if you are experienced). It is even fairly straight-forward to to hack in stuff that is useful for your specific game. It is a lot more work to generalize your work into something that is appropriate for every one to use especially if you are targeting all of the hardware and gameplay types that TGEA currently supports.
Honestly, while it would be awesome to see some of this stuff released to the community, I would be much more excited to see him take it and apply it to a really amazing game/demo/prototype. Turning this stuff into resources could easily derail their game and send his team into a spiral of tech and support. We've seen this happen quite often.
Could you imagine the kind of games Jeff Faust, John Kabus, or Melv May could have shipped by now if they hadn't had to spend so much time on their tech?
#30
09/23/2008 (3:01 pm)
Quote:Could you imagine the kind of games Jeff Faust, John Kabus, or Melv May could have shipped by now if they hadn't had to spend so much time on their tech?in that case i would hate them because they were so cool instead of loving them for being so cool because they feed me tech ... will love john even more if he can get SunBurn into TGEA!
#31
Exactly! Just like seeing the games others do using Torque, its always a good thing to see, without mentioning that its also inspiring!
Edit (OT):
@Neil ... I will never understand you. ( :P )
09/23/2008 (3:01 pm)
Quote:Sometimes it is just fun to see what kind of cool things other people are doing and to share the stuff you are excited about with others.
Exactly! Just like seeing the games others do using Torque, its always a good thing to see, without mentioning that its also inspiring!
Edit (OT):
Quote:in that case i would hate them because they were so cool instead of loving them for being so cool because they feed me tech ...
@Neil ... I will never understand you. ( :P )
#33
Besides he says:
on his website he say it is strickly a hobby.
so if you are doing it just for kicks to see what the engine is capable then why not just release the changes you have made so everyone can enjoy them. that is all I'm saying.
09/23/2008 (3:26 pm)
Didn't say it wasn't cool I said it doesn't benefit TGEA. And beside many people release resources and do not support them. Besides he says:
Quote:
Myself and Ruan van der Westhuizen has embarked on a mission to investigate next-gen possibilities in TGEA since the start of this year and have done some things in our spare time using TGEA
on his website he say it is strickly a hobby.
so if you are doing it just for kicks to see what the engine is capable then why not just release the changes you have made so everyone can enjoy them. that is all I'm saying.
#34
There is no such thing as just releasing code. At a bare minimum it means separating out his code changes and documenting them in some form (even if it is a diff file). Then there is uploading them somewhere and going through the process of posting it as a resource. And that doesn't begin to touch on the cost of "support" that people seem to expect with every resource posted on our site.
No one should ever feel obligated to release their hard work for free to our community! We love it when it happens since it is one of the things that makes our community shine but we never want to pressure people in it. Game development is hard enough as it is =)
09/23/2008 (3:46 pm)
Even if we never see a single line of code, just seeing what is possible with TGEA is a *huge* benefit for people working with the engine (inspiration) and people trying to market the engine ("look what is possible!").There is no such thing as just releasing code. At a bare minimum it means separating out his code changes and documenting them in some form (even if it is a diff file). Then there is uploading them somewhere and going through the process of posting it as a resource. And that doesn't begin to touch on the cost of "support" that people seem to expect with every resource posted on our site.
No one should ever feel obligated to release their hard work for free to our community! We love it when it happens since it is one of the things that makes our community shine but we never want to pressure people in it. Game development is hard enough as it is =)
#35
I totally agree with your point. It is exciting and very motivating to me when I see what other great things the community has done with Torque, whatever flavor it comes in, whether TGEA, TGB or TorqueX.
09/24/2008 (4:08 am)
@MattI totally agree with your point. It is exciting and very motivating to me when I see what other great things the community has done with Torque, whatever flavor it comes in, whether TGEA, TGB or TorqueX.
#36
Next, it's been covered, so I won't beat it to death: Quit begging for code.
Re: Forums for engines vs mod communities
There are developer "communities" but they don't revolve around communities focused on an engine. At a certain point, the specific engine becomes near-irrelevant. Graphics are graphics, gameplay is gameplay, art is art. It's more of a nebulous cloud, rather than a concrete forum. Blogs link to blogs link to forum posts @ Beyond3D or Mollyrocket and that's the community.
Engine/mod specific forums are way too specific to be much use, usually, because if whatever you are implementing already existed in, say, Unreal, than it would either already be done, or you wouldn't be able to get the code because some other company owns it and chances are whoever was working on it couldn't talk about the project anyway. All of the important things about whatever it is you are going to ask are general enough that limiting it to any specific engine (and frequently, API) would seriously limit the replies you get. Any kind of specifics about things like (for example), "Oh hey how did you set up Gamebryo to do XYZ," aren't necessary. The technique is what is important. You may adapt it to Unreal, or to run on the CPU instead of the GPU.
It is cool that the community around Torque has something of a hobbyist swing to it. This allows people to post stuff that they are working on, instead of always being tied up in an NDA. It's cool to have an engine-specific implementation of a feature you can slap down $30 for (Like the SSAO kit) and have a nice kick of instant gratification with a new shiny in your game.
09/24/2008 (9:33 am)
First off: Great work Gerhard, and good topic.Next, it's been covered, so I won't beat it to death: Quit begging for code.
Re: Forums for engines vs mod communities
There are developer "communities" but they don't revolve around communities focused on an engine. At a certain point, the specific engine becomes near-irrelevant. Graphics are graphics, gameplay is gameplay, art is art. It's more of a nebulous cloud, rather than a concrete forum. Blogs link to blogs link to forum posts @ Beyond3D or Mollyrocket and that's the community.
Engine/mod specific forums are way too specific to be much use, usually, because if whatever you are implementing already existed in, say, Unreal, than it would either already be done, or you wouldn't be able to get the code because some other company owns it and chances are whoever was working on it couldn't talk about the project anyway. All of the important things about whatever it is you are going to ask are general enough that limiting it to any specific engine (and frequently, API) would seriously limit the replies you get. Any kind of specifics about things like (for example), "Oh hey how did you set up Gamebryo to do XYZ," aren't necessary. The technique is what is important. You may adapt it to Unreal, or to run on the CPU instead of the GPU.
It is cool that the community around Torque has something of a hobbyist swing to it. This allows people to post stuff that they are working on, instead of always being tied up in an NDA. It's cool to have an engine-specific implementation of a feature you can slap down $30 for (Like the SSAO kit) and have a nice kick of instant gratification with a new shiny in your game.
#37
I answered the question regarding the release of resources or packs on this forum www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=79151. It is a consideration for me, but to be quite honest I can't see it happening in the near future, I'm simply too busy with my work to support releases. Simply put I won't be willing to release anything that does not form part of a new release of TGEA and has passed rigorous testing. On the issue of it being a hobby - I can see that my blog can be a bit misleading in this regard. Yes, all work was done in my spare time, in fact most coding was done late in the evenings and early morning hours, our new baby does not sleep and me working late on TGEA helps my wife to get some rest! No, It is NOT a hobby. I have done extensive 3D programming in the past, wrote a full blown 3D mission simulation and evaluation engine using DX8 a few years ago for a local government project, in fact I have been coding gfx since I had my first commodore 64. So it is something I'm well familiar with. I've been involved in the aerospace industry the last five years and wrote 2 major software development SDK's for fatigue testing software development. These are running smoothly now and I'm looking for a change of scenery, trying to get my feet back into 3D, especially gaming. The features I blog about are actually part of an ongoing project done in my spare time, I'm not doing it for kicks! I simply use the blog as exposure and to let people know that I actually exist, basically reaching out to the community. I do not mind sharing information or techniques used etc. but I can't see anything released before the project is done.
I'd also like to mention that most of these features are not done by hacking away at the code. They are proper implementations and are not raw implementations. My use of SM 3 for instance is integrated into the current setup as late as version 1.7.0. For example vertex texture stages are done by simply extending the the current texture staging code in the source. So this can, with minor revision from GG, be used as is. I have kept reusability and integration back into the engine in mind right from the onset. There are however things like deformable bodies for which I used D3DXEFFECTS and shaders were imnplemented using .fx program files simply due the complexity of something like deformable bodies, using FX makes prototyping WAY easier. Also my implementation of deformable bodies makes use of computational intelligence techniques of which I have made GPU implementations using HLSLFX, so it simply made sense to use it due to the time savings. So for instance to release deformable bodies as as a pack I'd have to restructure the shading part and probably add a new renderinstance class to manage the rendering and collision system of deformable bodies, so it would require some dedicated time for me to do this which I don't have right now.
To summarize, I'd like to put the code back into the engine but for this I'd need the assistance/guidance of GG so it can be done in such a way that the code finds it way into a proper release of TGEA.
09/25/2008 (8:10 pm)
I see a lot has been going on here! Been away for a bit, been busy with work. I'd just like to clear up a few things regarding the release of resources or packs,I answered the question regarding the release of resources or packs on this forum www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=79151. It is a consideration for me, but to be quite honest I can't see it happening in the near future, I'm simply too busy with my work to support releases. Simply put I won't be willing to release anything that does not form part of a new release of TGEA and has passed rigorous testing. On the issue of it being a hobby - I can see that my blog can be a bit misleading in this regard. Yes, all work was done in my spare time, in fact most coding was done late in the evenings and early morning hours, our new baby does not sleep and me working late on TGEA helps my wife to get some rest! No, It is NOT a hobby. I have done extensive 3D programming in the past, wrote a full blown 3D mission simulation and evaluation engine using DX8 a few years ago for a local government project, in fact I have been coding gfx since I had my first commodore 64. So it is something I'm well familiar with. I've been involved in the aerospace industry the last five years and wrote 2 major software development SDK's for fatigue testing software development. These are running smoothly now and I'm looking for a change of scenery, trying to get my feet back into 3D, especially gaming. The features I blog about are actually part of an ongoing project done in my spare time, I'm not doing it for kicks! I simply use the blog as exposure and to let people know that I actually exist, basically reaching out to the community. I do not mind sharing information or techniques used etc. but I can't see anything released before the project is done.
I'd also like to mention that most of these features are not done by hacking away at the code. They are proper implementations and are not raw implementations. My use of SM 3 for instance is integrated into the current setup as late as version 1.7.0. For example vertex texture stages are done by simply extending the the current texture staging code in the source. So this can, with minor revision from GG, be used as is. I have kept reusability and integration back into the engine in mind right from the onset. There are however things like deformable bodies for which I used D3DXEFFECTS and shaders were imnplemented using .fx program files simply due the complexity of something like deformable bodies, using FX makes prototyping WAY easier. Also my implementation of deformable bodies makes use of computational intelligence techniques of which I have made GPU implementations using HLSLFX, so it simply made sense to use it due to the time savings. So for instance to release deformable bodies as as a pack I'd have to restructure the shading part and probably add a new renderinstance class to manage the rendering and collision system of deformable bodies, so it would require some dedicated time for me to do this which I don't have right now.
To summarize, I'd like to put the code back into the engine but for this I'd need the assistance/guidance of GG so it can be done in such a way that the code finds it way into a proper release of TGEA.
#38
I've been following this thread with a large amount of interest as it is some top notch stuff you've got going there! Congrats. Is there a proper game in the works somewhere we can look forward to?
I also appreciate the fact that you re willing to get your code out there as long as it is "in the engine" and not something you will be (incorrectly) expected to support day-in day-out. I know I never want to get into the whole support business, I often picture it to be simply hellish and probably somewhat demoralising at times.
I'm sure with the great stuff you've shown thus far that yourselves and GG could come to some sort of (one would assume, fiscal) agreement, I think it would be advantageous for everyone (Yourself, GG, Torque licensees) too.
PS, seeing the character's arms collide with the GPU based cloth was pretty damn cool :)
09/25/2008 (8:50 pm)
Gerhard,I've been following this thread with a large amount of interest as it is some top notch stuff you've got going there! Congrats. Is there a proper game in the works somewhere we can look forward to?
I also appreciate the fact that you re willing to get your code out there as long as it is "in the engine" and not something you will be (incorrectly) expected to support day-in day-out. I know I never want to get into the whole support business, I often picture it to be simply hellish and probably somewhat demoralising at times.
I'm sure with the great stuff you've shown thus far that yourselves and GG could come to some sort of (one would assume, fiscal) agreement, I think it would be advantageous for everyone (Yourself, GG, Torque licensees) too.
PS, seeing the character's arms collide with the GPU based cloth was pretty damn cool :)
#39
09/26/2008 (1:57 am)
I suggest that GG should dedicate a person to help Gerhard asap, even a add-on kit is useful for us who are concerned about the next generation of TGEA!
#40
Again, this is just some blue sky daydreaming.
Great work Gerhard!
09/26/2008 (6:14 am)
Just wishful thinking here, but I would love to see Gerhard's solutions adopted by Garage Games and folded into the TGEA 1.8 beta that Matt Fairfax talked about last week. That would be very cool (although unlikely since the beta release is only a few weeks away). Again, this is just some blue sky daydreaming.
Great work Gerhard!
Torque Owner Dave