Quest 3d, Cipher 1.3?

#1 The cipher engine looks really awesome, I'd probably consider switching if it wasn't like $2,000.

The second one seems like a shockwave type of tech.

#2 The Cipher Engine does look impressive. I found this on the support forums:

Quote:We are considering introducing an education / shareware license that could be used by people that were working on these kinds of projects though. The idea here would be to make it affordable to shareware and hobby developers.

#3 The rendering features of that engine make torque look like minesweeper!

But who knows about the networking code and other things they don't mention...

Also, I don't see any terrain features.

#4 I don't think networking is part of the Cipher engine (I may be wrong though). They do have a terrain module, but it isn't included in the Cipher engine anymore, and isn't updated accordingly. They said there wasn't enough interest in it. But I think they did say that if there was enough interest they may resurrect it.

#5 In their docs they state they DO have networking. I just hope its good.

I'm gonna have to look in the couch for some change... see if I can dig up 2 g's to license that bad boy. ;)

I really hope they come up with an indie license.

#6 Torque uses OpenGL... plain and simple... anything you want to do... do it...

Minesweeper? Yeah, ok...

-Josh

#7 Yeah but with the Cipher engine things like shaders are already implemented, they aren't saying "You do it." I can program, but I am not experienced with the 3d stuff yet to implement those features (I'm mainly an artist you see).

I'm a Torque licensee, but if I see another affordable engine with better features you can bet I'm going to discuss it.

Why you spammed the board with those pics is beyond me...

#8 He's making a point that Torque isn't necessarily a 2nd rate engine graphically, provided you have the knowledge to sit down and improve the openGL code.

#9 Actually, straight out of the box torque is exactly a second rate graphics engine.

In league with q3 and the older version of UT, but not with the next generation of engines (Doom3, UT2003, the 1st rate ones).

But I'm a strong proponent of the "Graphics engines don't make the game" concept. It really boils down to your art.

However, just because I bought Torque doesn't mean I'm going to sugar coat things. It's a great deal but if Cipher was cheaper it seems like it would be an even better deal.

Josh's insane brand obsession scares me. Jay's doing a great job I guess. :)

#10 Yeah, my "insane brand obsession" is quite apparent in my response to your (lame) Minesweeper comment:

Quote:
Torque uses OpenGL... plain and simple... anything you want to do... do it...

Minesweeper? Yeah, ok...

-Josh

For those who want to see how Cipher makes Torque look like Minesweeper, here you are:

www.synapticsoup.com/cipher-screenshots.htm

Amazin' 3D Graphics!

-J

#11 Anthony, you're missing two invaluable points here. First, Torque is not a "game" that is meant to be released/published out of the box. It is an engine, that happens to include the basics of a game. It is up to the developing team that buys a Torque license to upgrade Torque to their requirements and features before they release it.

Secondly, and probably most importantly, Torque is the game that powered Tribes 2. I don't know when Tribes 2 was released, but that's a fairly old game.

Even if you used Cipher, you'd still have many months of development before you had a product that matched Torque for features, like a solid network library, scripting language (can't remember if Cipher includes one), basic physics and collision detection. These are all things that you would have to develop yourself, as they are already available and useable in Torque.

#12 LOL!

I'm sorry!

Torque makes Cipher, Doom 3 and Real life's graphics look like minesweeper.

#13 I'm only talking graphics wise, I don't know enough about Ciphers other features to really comment.

Torque IS a product, and out of the box it's graphics seriously lag behind what I see from Cipher.

I don't think torque is going to be support curved geometry in the interiors, shaders, or many of the other things that Cipher does anytime soon. Definately if I was trying to implement them by myself.

#14 Again I think you're missing the point. Torque can support per-pixel shading and other fancy buzzwords. These features just need to be developed either by the licensee or by GarageGames. Torque isn't a completed "product" per se, but that's just my opinion.

For you Torque seriously lags behind other engines because the features aren't in there, and because YOU can't develop them. But this is the whole point of your argument, although I think you're cruelly generalising the engines low graphical capabilities in a negative fashion.

Out of the box Torque isn't capable of doing what the above screenshots show. That's because Joshua added the functionality.

#15 With all due respect, that's the most retarded thing I have ever read. I paid my money and I can rate the torque engine at whatever level I want.

I'm done with this conversation.

A honda civic could be as fast as a dodge viper too, that doesn't make it on the same level.

#16 Why isn't it on the same level? It has the same performance, and isn't that what you're on about?

#17 One last thing:

As I said earlier, I feel art makes a good game really impressive. Even if your engine lacks the oomph of a new engine, I think you could make a great game with it.

But arguing that your outdated engine is just as good as a better looking one because it is "possible" to implement new features is really stupid. It just is.

Also, as I said earlier, Torque may have vastly better features in areas besides graphics. But that still doesn't change the fact that OUT OF THE BOX, torque's graphical capability is pretty behind. I keep hearing "you can do this, you can do that". But I know I can't implement the advanced features (yet.).

Maybe one day, but for the forseeable future, torque lags behind.

Motto of the day: Be Realistic.

#18 They aren't on the same level, because you'd have have to basically redesign the entire engine. (reffering to the car analogy)

#19 Basing an opinion on a smattering of screenshots is ill advised...

There isn't a demo of Cipher available... and I truly doubt you have looked at the sdk... what is left... some nice looking web pages... I truly believe you are mistaking some decent art for technology... a common mistake...

Cipher's ONLY game: www.synapticsoup.com/games-overview.htm is in production AT THE COMPANY which makes the engine!

I have seen this all before... I am not saying Cipher isn't real... I am saying that MOST of these technologies fall by the wayside...

If you truly are interested in superior rendering technology... and have money... Renderware, Intrinsic, NetImmerse, Cipher(if it's real or not), etc would love to take it...

If you have limited funds: use QuakeII ($5,000) or Torque($100)... or something free like Ogre/Nebula Device...

Uninformed opinions annoy the hell out of me... probably the only reason I posted.. I apologize if you know anything beyond breezing around their sales oriented web site.

-J

#20 Just no one gets the wrong idea, I'm developing my project in torque until I find a compelling reason to switch.

Graphics by themselves aren't just enough.

But it would be fun to mess with at least, if it was in torques price range.