Weekly Moderated Chats ...
by Gabe Allen · in General Discussion · 11/01/2002 (3:08 pm) · 30 replies
A while back, Garage Games began the weekly chat in #garagegames on the MGO network. While this is not altogether a bad idea, the way it is managed could use some vast improvement.
As it currently stands, all chats are moderated. This means that in order to interact with said chat, you send your question to someone else to ask for you. This further drives home a feeling of superiority that the weekly hombres have decided to grace us with their presence and we should be happy to devour every line of text they throw at us. And that is what a large portion of the "chats" are. This information could easily be tossed into a section on the site, say a FAQ, instead of coming in and throwing it at us based upon the assumption that everyone there needs/wants this information.
Often times, the content itself simply isn't that interesting to the people currently in the channel. It seems to be generally "we have this to say, now ask us questions that make us look good. Oh, you're all bored to tears and I'm done talking ... suddenly I feel the need to go mow the lawn now." Funny how "Indie Game Dev" looks a lot like over-commercialized uninspiring corporate game dev from this end.
The bottom line to this is that they're just like everyone else. Nothing stops them from coming in and starting a conversation. However, they'd like to make sure that everyone else is listening when they do.
-Gabe
As it currently stands, all chats are moderated. This means that in order to interact with said chat, you send your question to someone else to ask for you. This further drives home a feeling of superiority that the weekly hombres have decided to grace us with their presence and we should be happy to devour every line of text they throw at us. And that is what a large portion of the "chats" are. This information could easily be tossed into a section on the site, say a FAQ, instead of coming in and throwing it at us based upon the assumption that everyone there needs/wants this information.
Often times, the content itself simply isn't that interesting to the people currently in the channel. It seems to be generally "we have this to say, now ask us questions that make us look good. Oh, you're all bored to tears and I'm done talking ... suddenly I feel the need to go mow the lawn now." Funny how "Indie Game Dev" looks a lot like over-commercialized uninspiring corporate game dev from this end.
The bottom line to this is that they're just like everyone else. Nothing stops them from coming in and starting a conversation. However, they'd like to make sure that everyone else is listening when they do.
-Gabe
#22
Thank you.
I return you to the purpose of this thread.
11/06/2002 (6:07 am)
Please bring problems like that to the MGT?MGO management.Thank you.
I return you to the purpose of this thread.
#23
11/06/2002 (8:18 am)
Wow, never expected to see this. Heh. Sounds like my kid's (2 and 4) daily bout. 
#24
On the subject of behavior and expected behavior...
I don't think that it is too much to ask for everyone to be courtious and somewhat professional to one another. If there is a problem with this you will be asked to correct your behavior and if you fail to do so will be removed so that the other people who use the channel won't have to put up with your garbage.
If you are having a bad day or make a stupid comment that people take offense to, apoligize for it, no one will think any less of you simply because you retract, correct, or make up for things that you say or do.
On the subject of chats...
This is a new thing for everyone here in the community (that means you, mean, and the guys at GarageGames). None of us is perfect and we are going to make honest mistakes as we all learn what to expect and how we can get all benefit from these chats.
If these chats are going to work and help us all out then we need to work together to make them succeed. This goes not just for the organizational side of it but for the participation side too.
As for solutions on how to make the chats better here, I am pretty certain that Jay is open to constructive comments and critism on how to make things better and solve problems that people see with the chats. But since this is what this thread is about here are my thoughts/comments on how we could make things better:
The Five W's: Unfortunately this needs to be in our face like a banner ad and tell us the who, what, where, when, and why of this forthcoming chat. This does unfortunately mean more work for Jay who is already stretched pretty thin, maybe someone can volunteer to help put this material together for him?
Preperation Material: Panelists should probably put together a small bit of material or information for the attendees to read over and familiarize themselves with so that they can ask questions and be prepared for the chat. An example of this could be a build of the software, some screenshots, or a small writeup of the news or progress of a project or what/why the chat is focused on the specific subject.
Participation: Too often do the attendees sit there and watch while the chat goes on and then ask a plethora of questions after some of the panelists leave. The panelists are taking time out of their scheduales to help us out, so lets ask them questions during the time that they have alotted. We shouldn't make them feel as thought they wasted their time by sitting there like bumps on a log staring mindlessly out into space.
Moderation: Sorry but its needed. It's difficult enough to keep an IRC chat going when just five people are actively posting and I would hate to see what it would be like with more. The current moderation system does seem to work not only for us but for many other IRC chats too.
Those are my two cents (Canadian of course) if you can exchange them for something better let me know :)
Logan
11/06/2002 (12:14 pm)
Getting back onto the subject of the chats, I agree as well with James Margaris' posting but would like to add the following comments...On the subject of behavior and expected behavior...
I don't think that it is too much to ask for everyone to be courtious and somewhat professional to one another. If there is a problem with this you will be asked to correct your behavior and if you fail to do so will be removed so that the other people who use the channel won't have to put up with your garbage.
If you are having a bad day or make a stupid comment that people take offense to, apoligize for it, no one will think any less of you simply because you retract, correct, or make up for things that you say or do.
On the subject of chats...
This is a new thing for everyone here in the community (that means you, mean, and the guys at GarageGames). None of us is perfect and we are going to make honest mistakes as we all learn what to expect and how we can get all benefit from these chats.
If these chats are going to work and help us all out then we need to work together to make them succeed. This goes not just for the organizational side of it but for the participation side too.
As for solutions on how to make the chats better here, I am pretty certain that Jay is open to constructive comments and critism on how to make things better and solve problems that people see with the chats. But since this is what this thread is about here are my thoughts/comments on how we could make things better:
The Five W's: Unfortunately this needs to be in our face like a banner ad and tell us the who, what, where, when, and why of this forthcoming chat. This does unfortunately mean more work for Jay who is already stretched pretty thin, maybe someone can volunteer to help put this material together for him?
Preperation Material: Panelists should probably put together a small bit of material or information for the attendees to read over and familiarize themselves with so that they can ask questions and be prepared for the chat. An example of this could be a build of the software, some screenshots, or a small writeup of the news or progress of a project or what/why the chat is focused on the specific subject.
Participation: Too often do the attendees sit there and watch while the chat goes on and then ask a plethora of questions after some of the panelists leave. The panelists are taking time out of their scheduales to help us out, so lets ask them questions during the time that they have alotted. We shouldn't make them feel as thought they wasted their time by sitting there like bumps on a log staring mindlessly out into space.
Moderation: Sorry but its needed. It's difficult enough to keep an IRC chat going when just five people are actively posting and I would hate to see what it would be like with more. The current moderation system does seem to work not only for us but for many other IRC chats too.
Those are my two cents (Canadian of course) if you can exchange them for something better let me know :)
Logan
#25
The first thing I remember was a rather painful lecture a few weeks ago about the channel populous not talking about anything that's not directly related to Torque game development. This was not well recieved by the channel regulars (myself included) and many people complained bitterly that they wouldn't care to stick around under those restrictions, since it would be pretty boring.
Shortly after this we had one of the weekly chats (not one of the better ones) followed the very next week with the worst chat to date, and several members complained that the chats weren't helping us (mostly PR, etc. You can read those complaints above) and were just an annoyance that prevented us from doing what we normally do. This was not a heated conversation, but Gabe was banned from the channel for fairly ludicris reasons.
That is the history of the problem. This was all rehashed at least once a day (so far), and it always involves quite a few "we can ban you if we want" and "go somewhere else if you don't like it" comments.
I believe that while there are good points to be made, the emotion behind this thread stems directly from resentment of authority (or more directly the threatened, feared, percieved, and actual use of virtual force) on one side and, well I'm not quite sure about the other side.
As for the reality of the situation, I've only seen one truely undeserved channel ban so far. As for chasing people out, I've only seen that happen once as well. Certainly this has spiraled far beyond what it should have, but there's nothing like threats to get people pissed.
As for how I view the channel, I think of it as a group problem solving system. You can gain immediate feedback on your problem or idea by at least one other competant person at any time of the day. And I'll admit, we do talk about other things as well. We're all (well, mostly) reasonable people. If we're doing something, there's a reason for it. If you have a problem with us, tell us directly.
--Dave
11/06/2002 (12:17 pm)
This thread casts the IRC channel in a bad light, so perhaps some of the history of the situation will help people understand.The first thing I remember was a rather painful lecture a few weeks ago about the channel populous not talking about anything that's not directly related to Torque game development. This was not well recieved by the channel regulars (myself included) and many people complained bitterly that they wouldn't care to stick around under those restrictions, since it would be pretty boring.
Shortly after this we had one of the weekly chats (not one of the better ones) followed the very next week with the worst chat to date, and several members complained that the chats weren't helping us (mostly PR, etc. You can read those complaints above) and were just an annoyance that prevented us from doing what we normally do. This was not a heated conversation, but Gabe was banned from the channel for fairly ludicris reasons.
That is the history of the problem. This was all rehashed at least once a day (so far), and it always involves quite a few "we can ban you if we want" and "go somewhere else if you don't like it" comments.
I believe that while there are good points to be made, the emotion behind this thread stems directly from resentment of authority (or more directly the threatened, feared, percieved, and actual use of virtual force) on one side and, well I'm not quite sure about the other side.
As for the reality of the situation, I've only seen one truely undeserved channel ban so far. As for chasing people out, I've only seen that happen once as well. Certainly this has spiraled far beyond what it should have, but there's nothing like threats to get people pissed.
As for how I view the channel, I think of it as a group problem solving system. You can gain immediate feedback on your problem or idea by at least one other competant person at any time of the day. And I'll admit, we do talk about other things as well. We're all (well, mostly) reasonable people. If we're doing something, there's a reason for it. If you have a problem with us, tell us directly.
--Dave
#26
Instead... I'll be concise:
This thread makes me very angry, and I'm extremely disappointed with how it is being handled. If good PR is what you want, you are going about it the wrong way.
11/06/2002 (1:57 pm)
I've written out a page long reply, deleted it, written it again, and now I've deleted it again. I had drawn quotes and facts and said several contraversial things that would probably get me banned, thus proving the whole page true.Instead... I'll be concise:
This thread makes me very angry, and I'm extremely disappointed with how it is being handled. If good PR is what you want, you are going about it the wrong way.
#27
11/06/2002 (2:38 pm)
just a small suggestion, if anyone dislike how the #garagegames is handled, (s)he can always come to #enginedev (on the same server) and say whatever (s)he wants to say
#28
Its once a week, for 1 hour. Is it THAT bad you lose control of being able to babble for THAT long?
Its organised the way it is, because its at least a LITTLE organised that way. We tend towards a rabble otherwise (and I do visit the channel guys, so I hope youre not going to argue that point).
If your not interested, well, I feel for you. But lets face it. Its #garagegames, which kind of identifies who calls the shots (at least for one hour a week). Plenty of people who go there are not interested in garagegames, torque, the community or the chats, which is fine, but wouldnt that suggest that YOU are in the wrong place, and not the garagegames chats?
The format is a tad dry, I must admit, but having been to a few "chats" where you get to "talk" to people from TV programs, I know that actual contact with anyone in a "moderated" system is usually very low. At least this format DOES allow some contact, plus if you take the time to pre-present your questions, you definitely get a reply.
For the RW chats, its more of a PR-Announcement type thing, as most of the time you can catch some of us online anyway.
Anyway, just to re-iterate. Is it THAT bad to give up an hour a week on the #garagegames channel to some topic thats NOT just utter rubbish that MIGHT inform someone else?
Phil.
11/06/2002 (3:15 pm)
Seems like people are getting bent out of shape for no reason really.Its once a week, for 1 hour. Is it THAT bad you lose control of being able to babble for THAT long?
Its organised the way it is, because its at least a LITTLE organised that way. We tend towards a rabble otherwise (and I do visit the channel guys, so I hope youre not going to argue that point).
If your not interested, well, I feel for you. But lets face it. Its #garagegames, which kind of identifies who calls the shots (at least for one hour a week). Plenty of people who go there are not interested in garagegames, torque, the community or the chats, which is fine, but wouldnt that suggest that YOU are in the wrong place, and not the garagegames chats?
The format is a tad dry, I must admit, but having been to a few "chats" where you get to "talk" to people from TV programs, I know that actual contact with anyone in a "moderated" system is usually very low. At least this format DOES allow some contact, plus if you take the time to pre-present your questions, you definitely get a reply.
For the RW chats, its more of a PR-Announcement type thing, as most of the time you can catch some of us online anyway.
Anyway, just to re-iterate. Is it THAT bad to give up an hour a week on the #garagegames channel to some topic thats NOT just utter rubbish that MIGHT inform someone else?
Phil.
#29
--KallDrexx
11/06/2002 (7:23 pm)
well phil, I'm interested in the community, torque, and garagegames, but not the chats, so am I in the wrong place :p. Anyways I think this thread has gotten a bit off from what it was meant to be. If you look up we're not totally complaining that the chats are pointless and we don't want them taking up our time, but mereley that the chats are pointless in the current format. Yes we do get a "hint" of what the next chat is going to be but it's just a hint. Say next week is a chat about torque. Well.. uhh what about torque. Every chat that I can remember reading (I may be wrong on this) had a specific point that was more than just the general "topic" of the chat. That part however was never given out beforehand. Anyways the main point of this post is to remind you guys that this thread isn't about totally doing away with the chat, but merely make it more exciting and change it around so we can get a lot of participation and it can actually be fun to sit through and read the logs if we can't make it.--KallDrexx
#30
We now have builds of Realm Wars to discuss once a month, the newsletter to discuss (schedule to be announced) and the Indie Developer Roundtable(IDR)-which this month would be on the US holiday of Thanksgiving, so it will most be moved to earlier that week. The topic of the IDR this month is still to be announced, but I'm leaning toward a discussion of "Artists as Part of the Indie Movement or MMP fortune or folly (a session we had to cancel at IGC).
So that only leaves ONE WEEK a month unspoken for! (If there are five weeks I will take the lead and organize a chat on the Biz side for indie dev. studios).
Scripting, physics/AI, Game Design, Art or Graphics Issues and Team Management (not enough months with 5 weeks to properly cover this) all seem top of mind to me as possible areas that could use ongoing chats, but GG will be relying on community members to propose and moderate these chats and put together panels and post detailed overviews in advance - just e-mail me a proposal for either a one time or ongoing chat. jaym@garagegames.com - for those who went to IGC remember the session about building your personal brand and read big opportunity here.
One word of warning I do have additional "PR" uses (I know that is in the dirty marketing words lexicon) for the #garagegames channel. Including, but not limited to: product launch press conferences, service provider Q & A's and team postmortems after shipping a title (this may be posted first as an interview format conducted by e-mail, but I think being able to ask realtime questions in a chat is extremely important to our community) and we learned you have to have the game in play within the community before this is a useful chat.
GG is working on a new page to preface the #garagegames and soon to be launched gamers channel so that the purpose and use of the channel is clearly outlined.
11/07/2002 (1:54 am)
I want to thank everyone for the input and passion that has been brought to this topic, I really was concerned no one cared enough to put out the effort to make these chats have more substance (Realm Wars team members and all panelists aside), now I see I just hadn't asked the right individuals for assistance.We now have builds of Realm Wars to discuss once a month, the newsletter to discuss (schedule to be announced) and the Indie Developer Roundtable(IDR)-which this month would be on the US holiday of Thanksgiving, so it will most be moved to earlier that week. The topic of the IDR this month is still to be announced, but I'm leaning toward a discussion of "Artists as Part of the Indie Movement or MMP fortune or folly (a session we had to cancel at IGC).
So that only leaves ONE WEEK a month unspoken for! (If there are five weeks I will take the lead and organize a chat on the Biz side for indie dev. studios).
Scripting, physics/AI, Game Design, Art or Graphics Issues and Team Management (not enough months with 5 weeks to properly cover this) all seem top of mind to me as possible areas that could use ongoing chats, but GG will be relying on community members to propose and moderate these chats and put together panels and post detailed overviews in advance - just e-mail me a proposal for either a one time or ongoing chat. jaym@garagegames.com - for those who went to IGC remember the session about building your personal brand and read big opportunity here.
One word of warning I do have additional "PR" uses (I know that is in the dirty marketing words lexicon) for the #garagegames channel. Including, but not limited to: product launch press conferences, service provider Q & A's and team postmortems after shipping a title (this may be posted first as an interview format conducted by e-mail, but I think being able to ask realtime questions in a chat is extremely important to our community) and we learned you have to have the game in play within the community before this is a useful chat.
GG is working on a new page to preface the #garagegames and soon to be launched gamers channel so that the purpose and use of the channel is clearly outlined.
Torque Owner Anthony McCrary
But I have decided I'm not going to bother anyone with this anymore.. I will simply begin ignoring you on all levels.
Goodbye Longwalker.
There wasn't a problem until you showed up.
Hell, I was an op for an hour last night.