Weekly Moderated Chats ...

#1 I do have to agree with gabe on this point. tonight was my 2nd chat I have been in (I work on thursday nights so..) and I have found it much more informative to just read the logs the next day as it's faster and I can easily skip parts that I'm not interested in.

--KallDrexx

#2 I agree with most of Gabe's post. I certainly question the purposes of the weekly discussions.

Are they for "informing the community"? In which case it makes far more sense to put info on the site - it will reach far more people and avoid disrupting chat.

Are they for "maintaining community discussion"? In which case, let us discuss. Moderating the chat just puts a block in place.

Are they for "seeking community feedback"? In which case, put the info on the site, come into the room, tell people it's there, and wait for questions etc. Don't shove the information down our throat - we'll discuss it with us if it interests us. (Which in most cases it probably will.)

Or are they for "questions and answers with GG/project leaders"? Moderation works good for that. But, save everyone's time - put the information on site a short time beforehand (an hour or so) so people can plan their questions, then get the moderated session over with as quickly as possible.

I don't feel any closer to the GG community by having the leaders treat us as a noisy school class.

#3 I have to agree with Gabe.

#GarageGames is like it's own sub-community of the developers here on the site. The people usually involved in the chats are never around at any other time.

I say the chats should just be moved to some other channel like #gg-rountables or something. this way noone is bothered. Anyways, it's not a huge deal, it's just a weekly annoyance.

#4 Yeah! What Grant said.... ;)
Honestly, I think he made a very good point: why not post the topics/statements on the GG site like an hour before the "chat" and then go there and actually *discuss* things...
and yes, it would be nice to see some more GG staff every once in a while besides for that Thursday thing...
I mean, that #GG chan is really cool, lots of nice people there all the time... :P

#5 Also another thing. I think the RW "chats" are ridiculous. No offense and it's not like I have much interest in helping out with rw development or anything but it seems to me that this format is moronic and boring when they should be having a true discussion on concepts. Yes thats what goes on in the forums which makes me wonder what the point of the "discussions" are for anyway.

--KallDrexx

#6 A solution might be to have them on garagegames other official channel on homelan. That way only people who want to see the chat have to sit through it since that other channel is always empty.

I may not have "permission" to post this being an associate but I also think the Chats are lacking. I agree with whats mostly been said here. I too would like to see the gg guys more (we see jay but thats it, but since he is a marketing guy he isnt much help to us) on irc.

As far as the individual chats I too think the announcement stuff should be posted ahead of time and then use the chat for discussion, this gives people time to think of questions. I know in the past I haven't thought of some questions till after then chat and the GG guys leave immediately after the chat so Im SOL then.

The RW chat sessions need to be more focused on feedback from the community as well as suggestions, etc. I don't think it should be moderated. If they want to announce new stuff do so on the webpage (which speaking of if any of the GG staff are reading this, RW needs its own homepage that the team can edit themselves to post news..surely you should be able to sandbox an ftp login or something so they can only see their dir they put the page in), no need to have a moderated chat over it.

For the chats over all they need better content before the chat hinting at what the chats gonna be. That's kinda repeating myself but I think its important. Most of the chats have been so boring that I dont even follow them. A few have been pretty good but most have not. A major contribution to this is the clueless people watching the chat. They have no idea what questions to ask as they have been given no details to think any up. Simply saying "We are gonna talk about RW this week, send in your questions" helps no one. I'd probably be accurate to say you have gotten very little if any questions that way. Maybe post an outline of the chat before hand with some details, something people can read and get their minds turning.

I am curious as to how many people in there are actually reading the chat. I know some that leave before the chat and come back after its over. At its current stance its really uninformative and boring.

Thats my 2 cents on the matter. Ignore my associate tag as this opinion does not reflect Garagegames.

#7 I went to the first chat, and noticed the same thing. Being in the chat is utterly pointless. I just wait until they clean it up and post it, it's much faster, and I get the same information then.

I like the idea of actually having a community discussion, even if it could get a bit unweildy with the number of people. I'm not sure exactly how, but I know it needs to be changed. I'm certainly not coming until it becomes more like a real discussion. It's a nice idea, but the execution needs some serious changes. Anything that increases the amount of actual discussion seems good to me. Maybe having something beforehand, then talking about it during the discussion, as someone mentioned before.

#8 I suppose it all depends on what the purpose of the chats are. I would like to think that the purpose is to help educate us indies. If so... the powers that be might select a subject, then come on and teach us a bit about that subject. Better yet, write a short white paper on it and post it. advertise it and then come on and allow us to do questions and answers about that subject. you could use this to help create really good information on the parts of the game engine.

but so far... I havent seen anything that really helps us do anything of any worth.

#9 I've decided to post somewhat of an ammendment to my original post. I tend to post how I feel rather than really think something through and post in a more intelligent and diplomatic format. Thankfully, I had a few more level-headed people that certainly did a much better job posting than I did.

To clarify my stance and some comments ... I wasn't really trying to take shots at anyone with my post. I just felt rather strongly that the chats FELT too predetermined ... it seemed like more of a PR opportunity than a real development chat.

To me, it feels as though the format of the chats creates an artificial barrier between a group of like-minded developers. All of us are working towards the same goals, and yet at times it seems like the only way we can interact with some of the more rewknowned developers is through a less than casual medium.

While my personal issue with the chats lies primarily in the format, others have brought up some very valid points regarding the content of the chats.

I think one of the best suggestions thus far has been to let people know, in advance, the exact scope of the chat. This would give everyone an opportunity to prepare some questions for the developers while putting a limit on the area a developer would be expected to be able to cover. This would, theoretically, lead to being able to have real discussions about the topics rather than simply doing a question and answer session.

It has also been said that chat isn't the best format for disseminating information. This would probably be better suited to a news posting with the relevant links posted in IRC. This also fits along with posting advance information about the chats. Rather than spending time getting new folks up to speed on the project and the developers, they could get all this information beforehand.

-Gabe

#10 I've been away from the forums and have not replied to this thread due to a few "discussions" I was helping facilitate at IGC.

Your input and feedback is helpful. I'll try to clarify what the purpose of the chats is and then see how they can be more effective, interactive and community centric.

If you notice in news posts on Aug. 12th the general topics of the chats are pre-determined and except for a couple minor deviations they have remained on this topic schedule: www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=3070 {I admit I have not repeated this information as often as it should be.}

Key Text from this News Post:
Moderated Chats on key community topics will be hosted by Max Gaming on IRC.

We will have a rotating schedule of monthly chats:
Wk 1: Torque Engine Topics
Wk 2: 3D Graphics Topics
Wk 3: Realm Wars (this week)
Wk 4: Business/Team Building/Marketing(in 5 wk months-Aug02/Oct02/Jan03/May03/July03)
Last Wk: "Indie Developer Roundtable" - TBA

We ask that all questions that are to be part of the formal chat be submitted by 5pm PST Wednesday prior to the chat tojaym@garagegames.com.

Next week: Team Building - Jay Moore Moderator, Jeff Tunnell 1st Panelist.

We’re looking for moderators for the community chats. We’d like to develop a pool of trained moderators so that no one person has to take on too large of commitment and also spread the fame.

Please note the two different types of chats 1. The community chats and 2. The Indie Developer Roundtables (which were launched on Aug. 21st www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=3127 and have the following definition:

GarageGames, in cooperation with CyPR Media, is launching the "Indie Developer Roundtable," a series of monthly moderated chats designed to improve the visibility of the Indie community while giving Indie developers and leaders access to important topics. Roundtables will be hosted the last Thursday of each month on IRC (IRC server: Channel: #garagegames).

Yes, these are most importantly a "PR" effort (which should mean to those in the community that GG is taking on the leadership role in Indie Game Development sector of the industry - part of our mission).

Hopefully that carifies the current purpose and objectives of the chats.

The fact that the chats feel produced or preformatted is somewhat from the desire to get key information out quickly to be a catalyst for additional questions which have usually come from those who attend the chat based on the topic being discussed. For those who have taken the time to ask questions, thank you for your participation. I honestly don't see how typing the question to a facilitators is even as hard as like raising your hand in a realworld discussion. By putting a question into the queue via a facilitator, so that panelists have moment to form a quality answer, it allows the moderator to take questions in an order that moves the discussion forward in a clearer manner. We use a #moderators channel to organize our thoughts and sometimes decide to answer questions that are not really appropriate to the chat offline.

The nature of IRC and using a moderated approach is two fold 1) It allows for a panel to be able to respond to questions in an organized fashion with better time efficiency for all that want to to reply and 2) Allows the logs to be possible to edit and read afterward (we get about 200-300 downloads of the posts from each weeks chat).

I went back and checked my track record on announcing the chats in a news item in advance - I average about 2.5 days ahead (not as solid as I'd like, totally missing one chat and canceling another due to a lack of time preparing for IGC). Our highest attendance was 64 during our announcement of the change in Licensing EULA and we average about 35 people per chat with the "Indie Developer Roundtable" chats having the most attendance overal. As a point of reference the chat channel from my observations averages about 22 people, with many idling and roughly 5-10 people active at a time.

My personal goal for the community chats was to create a format and then recruit moderators to key topics and let the community self-run these chats. It was never meant to be a place that "GG Staff" would grace the chat room and I've been very very appreciative to all the panelists who have taken the time to join us and make themselves available to the moderated chats.

The Realm Wars team has reported that the chats have assisted in improving communication (they host a production chat each week on a separate channel - I'll have them post a news item about this in the Realm Wars News) If you have no interest in contributing to the Realm Wars community project then the monthly chat isn't one I would expect you to participate in.

As builds come faster, new assets are added quicker and gameplay feedback increases I could easily see Realm Wars formally or informally having team meetings in the #garagegames space or another channel of their chosing much more often.

I plan to announce launches of products in IRC chat press conferences and add some post mortem chats with teams that ship products like we had with Marble Blast at IGC.

At IGC we also announced a change to our current chat topic calendar with the relaunch of the GG community newsletter and it was determined that one week after the newsletter comes out a chat will be held to cover items in the newsletter and I could see that discussion possibly bleeding over into two chat sessions - if the newsletter team will chose to use a moderated format is still to be determined.

As far as the #garagegames channel that is provided to GG as a multi-purpose and OPEN channel which GarageGames has full and not democratic control over, but we've always intended it to be used by everyone (not just a few) to add a realtime communication for everyone in the community.

Moderating a group discussion in real life is a blend of psychology, compelling communication skills and complex group dynamics, taking a discussion online adds a number of additional layers of abstraction and possible disconnects. Not to mention what appears to be the less than appreciative members who are using the "room" when we enter to have a scheduled discussion.

I'm open to modifying the format - posting an overview in advance (like an agenda for any meeting) that is more discriptive of the topic (I'd felt open agenda with the topic, a few invited panelists and those willing to send questions in advance would give enough framework for a productive discussion). I think that the other IRC channels which use the format that I've chosen are more predisposed to some organization - I'm not sure why I'd think that Indies would appreicate structure :), but I did.

This to a great degree is a community experiment and I've found in a community like ours if no one is passionate about contributing to an effort it might not be worth doing - I've invested about 5 hrs. a week into this and my thanks go out to Logan, James Hills and all of our panelists and those who have forwarded me a log when I've lost it. Spending an hr. plus editing the log at midnight on Thursday is not my idea of fun (nor have I found does anyone else). Soon I will be too busy to put these kinds of hours into this project and may assign it to someone else.

BTW - From a PR perspective the Indie Dev. Roundtable chats have gotten us great coverage and even better cross community relationships established - these will continue and these will be hosted on the #garagegames channel.

NOW FOR MY TWO CENTS
I had no less than 3 unsolicited complaints about the our IRC channel at IGC. They not planning on revisiting the channel until the attitude and "culture" changes - two of those that spoke to me were artists (and actually had very thick skin, but felt very unwelcome and didn't need all the negativity that they experienced in the channel).

I plan to contact those mentioned by handle personally regarding the treatment of others and your attitude while in the #garagegames channel. Everything you needed to know about being in the chat channel you should have learned in Kindergarden. Be nice to others, if you don't have something nice to say..., treat others as you want to be treated, yadda yadda. If you want to be considered productive and professional members of this community then just act that way. If you want a place to kick back, be rude, constantly sarcastic, use censored language, speak negatively about the Torque Engine, tutorials or any other part of the efforts of people in this incredible community, I respectfully and firmly ask you to find another IRC channel to be on (and MGO management has every right and the support of GG to show you how to disconnect from the channel).

BTW - I have to say that the behavior I've just mentioned has been the exception when I've read over the chat logs and overall it is a great place to get help and receive great assistance and have an ongoing dialog.

#11 Jay,

I've heard you mention the 'chased away from IRC' complaints before. In my experience, there are four reliable ways to get chased off of the IRC channel:

1. Insult someone without cause.
2. Be very demanding of answers.
3. Repeatedly tell the experienced people that they are wrong without any supporting evidence.
4. Convince us that you are a permanent newbie; beyond our help.

Which can be boiled down to:

1. Be annoying.

The IRC channel is an open but tight community; we welcome new members but we are very sensitive until we get to know you. Most new people come in asking for help, and nobody wants to help someone who is offensive or ungrateful.

I have personally spent hours helping a single person at a time, and plenty of time answering questions. I have also participated in chasing people away, and I do not apologize for that. I believe that if people follow the most basic social conventions then they won't have problems, but people seem to think that online anonymity removes that burden.

Jay, if you could provide names or times we may be able to see if anything untoward happened. Perhaps we did chase them out, or they caught us chasing someone else out, or perhaps they just happened to stop by while we were discussing something and were offended.

Remember, we're just people!

#12 Frustration taken out in IRC/Forums is very very very lame. I don't care how jaded a person is... they should go take a walk, kick a dog, or something.

Grandstanding one's ability, while undermining others, is hardly clever. In fact, it's painfully obvious.

-J

#13 Expect to see a little (ok, alot) more moderation.

For chaos, several users have created several "more social" channels.

But the chaos ends. Arguments and profanity will be escorted out of the channel, with alacrity. This is more a general statement, than a specific reposnse to Gabe's thread. I saw a productive, constructive chat about things that people would like to see at the scheduled chats, I think that those points should be brought up, either here, or personally with Jay.

It's a big server, and a strong community. Help us work thru this, don't work against us because we disagree.

#14 I don't understand why the chats can't be simply held in another channel (like #gg-chat). It's pretty cimple really. You can come in #GarageGames and announce the chat (or change the topic, or whatever). People who want to join the chat can easily jump into the chat channel. This way noone in #GarageGames is being bothered, or has a reason to complain if they don't like the chat.

I really wish this option would be considered. It's not like there's lack of channels available. It's simpler to do this, than to force everyone in #GarageGames who still want to chat with each other to all move to another channel.

#15 I believe in the power of 'ignore'. ;-)

Eric

#16 A few points, this post might be a bit long so I will try to organize...

1: Behavior on IRC
2: Future Realm Wars Chats
3: My thoughts on chats in general

-------------

1: Behavior on IRC -
The GarageGames community is full of people who are critical thinkers, which is great, but that can bleed a bit into being overly critical and non-constructive. I tend to be a critical person myself, but there is a difference being critical and just complaining. Everyone needs to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt and approach things as "what can we do to make x better" rather than simply "here is what sucks about x." Everything has flaws. Pointing them out is a lot easier than coming up with reasonable suggestions.

As far people feeling unwelcome, even if the person is a "noob" or totally clueless they should *still* feel welcome. There is never a reason to go out of your way to make someone else feel unwelcome, unless they are intentionally being a pain. Everyone starts off as a "noob." If they are asking a question you have heard 500 times you can choose to stay mum, but going off on them doesn't make much sense.

-------------
2: Future Realm Wars Chats

Realm Wars chats will most likely be centered around new builds. We hope to have a new build ready about once a week, one chat a month will allow people to judge progress and make suggestions. We will have more informal chats after each build, but these monthly chats will be for everyone to get on the same page and judge progress in larger chunks without dealing with minor details. That should give more structure to the chats and give everyone a better idea of the purpose/topics.

-------------

3: My thoughts on chats in general

The main question for chats is what can a chat do that a FAQ or Slashot-style interview can't do? IMO chats are best when they need to be highly interactive or focus on ephemeral issues. (Issues only relevant in that time scope)

For example ESPN has sports chats that focus on the last few weeks of sports. A few weeks later when the landscapes have changed those chats are not particularly relevant.

One thing we want to avoid is putting information in chats that should really go in a more permanent resource. Chats might be a good way to figure out what the issues are, but if those issues aren't changing on a weekly basis they really need to go in some more accessible resource. For example we are creating a comprehensive Realm Wars Art FAQ that covers all aspects of art creation and contribution. People should not have to look through chat logs to get at that information.

Friday's IGC chat is a good case study. Towards the end of the chat there were some spontaneous questions about the Robot Battle (?) game. Most of the chat however was stuff that could be prepared and posted ahead of time for people to read at their leisure, leaving more time in the chat for discussion rather than introductions and canned responses.

The less interactive chats are the more they will rely on canned responses, fewer people will show up, and and the chats become less interactive...

So it comes down to two things: choosing topics and getting the required background info out of the way in advance.

Maybe each news item describing the chat should include info about who is in the chat, what the chat is focusing on, etc. There should be no need for introductions or basic background info during the chat itself.

As far as choosing the topics, they should be specific, timely, and something more suited to chat than to offline Q&A sessions or FAQs. Something like "stump the experts" is a bit vague, given that topic it is hard to tell whether the content will be of use or not. "Stump the experts: scripting triggers" would be more useful. People need something concrete to talk about.

As another example, "managing virtual teams" is somewhat helpful, but would be more helpful if the chat was based around an article that appeared a few days in advance. Chat is good for responding to specific inquiries, not so good at disseminating large chunks of info.

Perhaps the best way to think about chat is to think about typical lectures or presentations - you have a presentation then open the floor for questions. Right now the presentation is done in the chat on IRC, when it could instead be done offline, leaving the chat for Q&A and feedback only. IRC is not really a good presentation format IMO.

That's just my 2 cents. Jay does tons of stuff so it should be up to the individual chat panelists to write up whatever is required before-hand. But I think with some changes the chats could be more useful for both the community and the panelists in many cases.

#17 James,

For once I agree with you.

#18 I got threatened by a former op for speaking a language other than english.

This is reprehensible and I do not think any business would want to be represented like that.

I find this as a serious insult.

** Not a cultural thing, I was speaking Semaphore **

#19 The above brought to you by the person who said this:

Quote:
Anthony McCrary
Member Posted: Aug 18, 2002 15:50 CDT

I hate the admins there, they ban over really little things.

'Can't say I would be sad to see them all dead.

#20 What does that have to do anything?

I thought you were going to have this big reply posting proof about how I am lieing and all that...