bump mapping

#1 Tutorial on dot3 bumpmapping here: www.geocities.com/nitrogl_10_29_00/code.html

#2 Yea I have heard the same thing about it as well. Our team is currently wrapping up our TGE DOT3 Bumpmapping code. Should be able to release it early November. Aiming for around the 5-7th. Would love to hear your ideas on the implementation, always good to hear fresh perspectives.

#3 wow, it would be awesome if GG could implement your bump mapping code directly into the engine for the next release, it would be a pretty big improvement! and Ryan, thank you so much for releasing such awesome improvements to the community, your way cooler than those dorks working on project shadow (I think thats the one that wanted to charge GG a lot of money for their improvements) who are hogging their code enhancements... whats the name of your game? I'll go ahead and buy it once its done just as thanks for helping out the community :)

#4 Ryan: thats awesome, can't wait!

#5 Heh, well don't thank me quite yet, wait until we release it. :) As for the team who wants to sell their code, while I would prefer that people release things that could really help out the GG community, I don't think a team should be looked down upon because they want to get credit for what they do, so go easy on them :) But DOT3 Bumpmapping is just the tip of the iceberg, much bigger stuff to come.

#6 hey Ben Swanson that site has nothing but the source code i cant find any tuts about dot3 just code.

#7 Eric Risser,

What you are posting about our company is false information. We have never stated we were going to charge GarageGames money. The fact is, we have not had much communications with GarageGames in this regard.

It is a shame that people have to spread false rumors and resort to name calling because they do not agree with how others run their business.

Paul Burkhardt
Project Manager
Vae Victis Incorporated
http://www.vaevictisgames.com

#8 I have to agree with Paul, if they have put hard work into their game there is nothing REQUIRING them to share. This is NOT a kindergarden even if a majority of the forum participants tend to act like children most of the time.

I am making lots of massive changes that I am probably not going to share because they will be proprietary to my game.

I might be willing to offer them for money, in fact I have already talked to Jeff Tunnell about third parties charging for enhancements/extensions to the source code maybe even selling the new source thru GG. He was receptive to the idea and definately did NOT say it was taboo.

This is a BUSINESS for some of us, I have actually offered to PAY some of the people that are contributing tools and source for a couple of reasons, one because what they are doing IS worth MONEY, and two as a BUSINESS decision it would make WAY more sense to pay someone like Paul, even if he was willing to sell the enhancement, rather than tackle part of the engine I am not an expert at.

For those reading this that are not in a position to pay for what you need or have some silly notion that "code needs to be free" or something equally as ridiculous, need to realize that program code is a commodity just like anything else and like any commodity it has a value.

Nothing in the Garage Games license or anything else implies or requires anyone that purchases the source to submit anything back, nasty entitlement attitudes don't help either.

I really wish there was some offical way to show our appreaciation to anyone who submits any really useful code/tools back to the community.

#9 sorry paul, didnt know that info was false, I heard it from several sources, steffen beffy wrote in your dev shot about vertex shaders "Ryan, I don't think so (refering to adding your source openly)... those guys stated repeatedly that they are not willing to share anything with the community - at least not for free... or am I wrong here, Paul? Nice work, though..."
and you didnt reply (and I know you didnt just miss it because it was from your dev shot), therefore I assumed you agreed with him, I remember reading another forum thread (although I cant remember which one nor find it due to the overwhelming number of threads) where I asked about it and was replied by another member saying that you guys were only willing to give your code to GG for well.... more money than they could afford (which actualy might not be all that much)... then I was talking to Ward de Langhe on ICQ about bump mapping and your project came up and he said he knew your programmer and you had him on a pretty strict NDA and wanted a good amount of money from GG to release your improvements... then if that isnt enough people telling me the same thing about your business plans then there was a post by you saying "Yacine, we would have to discuss adding our enhancements with the GarageGames staff. Our project is our first concern of course, but we are interested in helping out the community as long as it isn't overflowing with individuals who are more interested in criticizing other developers than discussing game development. ", you said that you would be willing to discuss adding your enhancements, and I'm pretty sure GG was willing to discuss it too, therefore someone would have to be pretty stupid to not come to the conclusion that you guys made the disision not to add your code to the engine (since I'm pretty sure GG wouldnt turn down awesome improvements for no reason) and since I heard from numerous sources and your own silence confirming it that you guys wanted more money from GG than they could afford... its nice that after like 3 or 4 months of speculation and rumors and your complete silence on the issue (even in your own dev shot comments) that you decide to finnaly tell everyone that this was a rumor and act like a hurt puppie and make me look like a bad guy in front of everyone, but I think your more to blame for this rumor than I am. First off, I'm not the first person to state this info, in fact I'm not the 50th (so dont get pissed at me). Second off, you have been sending the community mixed signals between your claims of wanting to release your source and then silence to direct questions about it that you must have seen.

As for calling you a dork, I'm sorry, I didnt mean to call you a "name", I should watch myself on the internet better, I didnt mean it as an insult, it was more of a playfull comment (by the fact that calling someone a dork is such an incredibly lame insult that it would probably be more of an insult to myself for choosing that word ;) )... I actualy have a lot of respect for your project and I wish you the best of luck. I can understand and appriciate your decision to keep your improvements for yourself, you have no obligation to anyone to make it open source (althouhg it would win you a ton of popularity points if you did). If you read my post again I think you'll notice that it was a thank you note to Ryan, not a "I hate Paul" note, I said that I would buy Ryan's game in appriciaition for what he did, I never said I would NOT buy yours out of hatred for you not making your stuff open source, if your game is cool and has a lot of good reviews and a nice demo, I'll get it too ;)

as for your comment "It is a shame that people have to spread false rumors and resort to name calling because they do not agree with how others run their business."
I think you can obviously see that I didnt have to "resort" to anything, and the name calling thing was really more of a missunderstanding, and I see nothing wrong with how you run your bussiness... I think your statement was more of a personal attack on me than mine was on you. As for my statement that Ryan is a lot cooler than you... well, I'm gonna have to stick with that opinion, dont get angry, he is honestly just a lot cooler than you are, let me show you why:

-Ryan: is always nice and responsive in all his posts and wants to help the community by releasing tons of awesome engine enhancements that will improve all our projects and the community
-Paul: teases community with possibility of engine enhancements, never responds to posts about sharing his enhancements (which makes him seem kinda greedy sometimes)... then makes me look like an imature liar in front of the community for simply stating what is kinda common knowledge around here due to his own comments (or lack of)

LOL sorry Paul, it was a close one, you almost won, but Ryan was just a little bit more cool than you... oh well, no hard feelings?

#10 Just as this debate was goin' on, I had an idea concerning how to pay back the community for thier contributions, and give developers more reasons to contribute thier engine changes:

www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=forums&page=result.thread&qt=7811

And for the record, I TOTALLY agree - there's nothing that requires people to submit thier changes to the engine back to the community. It does continue to enhanse the engine that way, so it's a Good Thing (TM). But, there's no requirement, nor should there be. And I definitely don't feel that people who don't contribute back to the community are being rude, or just downright wrong.

Code doesn't want to be free - some people just think it should be. (And keep in mind, this comes from someone who is a big Open Source supporter. I just also happen to be realistic about making money too ;-)

#11 @someone: if you download the source and open it up, all the instructions on how to do it are in there as comments.

#12 We have never asked GarageGames for money. Since we have posted screenshots on this website, we have received no communications from GarageGames.

Project Shadow
http://www.vaevictisgames.com

#13 well thats good to hear, consider your name cleared as far as I'm concerned (not that the charge GG for your engine enhancements ever really bothered me... I mean its your decision), I hope everyone else see's this thread so this rumor will go away

#14 While I agree that this is a business and that some of us are out to make money I do have a concern with charging others to get enhancements to the engine.

What is your time worth? What price would you put on your enhancements?

I argue that, you wouldn't be able to charge much without making it taboo rather quickly.

I bought the engine for 100 bucks. A reasonable price for your enhancements taking that into consideration would be what?

If you originally thought you were going to charge 20 or more dollars for your enhacements..well I say that is bogus considering the cost of the engine in the first place.

But this is all rather speculative.

#15 If you are planning on making money with a published game, the price of the source license is irrelevant to the price of any game enhancements or tools.

A full featured dts exporter from any major 3D package is worth AT LEAST $100.

If you don't have the skill, time or talent to add something like bump mapping or pixel shaders or what ever, and you want that in your game, how does the price of the source to Torque have any relevance to what you need is worth.

#16 Remember guys offering up code is voluntary and not mandated by the liscense.

If someone offers up code enhancement all the power to them, if they don't well there choice.

#17 Agreed.

#18 Greetings!

While this thread is wildly off track, I thought I'd still offer up my 2 cents (Canadian, ~1 cent U.S.).

I certainly have no problem with people charging for enhancements to the TGE or tools to aid in game creation. When we come down to it, this is a business.

Here's how I look at it. We have two resources available to us: time and money; and one can make up for the other.

If you are working towards a game that you will sell, then it may be worth it to pay for something that would normally take you a long time to do yourself. It just becomes part of the cost to make the game, and you account for this when deciding how to much to sell the game for. This allows you to spent time on other areas of your game creation.

If you don't have/aren't willing to spend the money, or are creating something that you are planning on giving away, then you can use your time to create everything you need. This time includes researching how do to what you want, as well as looking for free resources to help. What you don't spend money on, you'll spend time on.

Now, if you are in the position of selling a resource, how much do you charge? What ever you feel is the best price. It doesn't matter what someone has paid for in the past. You charge what you feel is appropriate. If someone doesn't feel that that cost is fair, they don't buy it.

The other side to this is if I pay for something, I would expect a certain amount of support from the author (which is an added cost to the author). If I use a free resource, then it is 'as is' and any support is just a bonus, and usually requires more time on my part.

And remember: I'm using the above argument for all forms of content creation, be it code, graphics, sound, etc.

- LightWave Dave

#19 I am not using Lightwave in my development, but I am glad you did not charge for your exporter. It has probably helped quite a few people in the community as well as your releasing the source.

Thanks !

#20 Beucase my name is being mentioned I really need to reply to this.
Eric, I didn't say that exatly. Because of Paul's silence I tought he was looking for a royalties deal with Garagegames. You know, like what they promised the associates. Lower royalties obligations in return for helping the community. It was a tought... the word 'probably' is crucial in this statement.
Be carefull with what you say in public forums Eric. You can word it quit offending sometimes, altough I'm sure you mean it right.

Anyway, I have been asking what people would think of a system like rent a coder for some time now. Where I can pay for engine contributions. BUT, only the programmers who can't do the job, or programmers who think they can earn 600$ by adding something to a 100$ engine seem to be interested. 600$ not enough? sorry I'm a student.. Most programmers think they can ask a lot of money, but if they need a completely animated and skinned model all they want to offer is like 15$ Sorry, I can program and do artwork... none of both jobs is superior or takes more work/brains to do! Period.. people who claim otherwise don't know what they are talking about (depends on what project offcourse, I'm referring to the avarage Torque project here)
I also said we could put together with more then one team to let a programmer work on something we all need.. no response except for Ryan stating their team will release bumpmapping for free (thank you Ryan!! .. and your team offcourse).
Pff.... actually I don't need any of these extras to make my game. Just would be nice to have. If asking and offering money isn't enough... well then there's something wrong with the programmers around here, becuase what I've been asking isn't all that hard. Anyway.. or programmer is doing a great job with the more game-logic parts of the game... so we'll just make our game without the fancy extras and shut up..
Having bump mapping in would be nice tough.
Oh.. and again (last time I say this becuase there doesn't seem to be any programmer interested in this) I want to add I'm willing to trade quality artwork for code. I can do websites, textures, skyboxes, levels....even sounds.

Consider this a brainfart.(its late and I had more then a few beers becuase its the end of the exams...)