Jeff quick question (a proposal)
by JoeSmith · in Torque Game Engine · 06/11/2001 (3:49 am) · 30 replies
I sent you a mail about this but you didn't respond but I thought I should put it here, for people that were interested.
The first question is you said something about burn on demand once is that gone??
But I have a proposal for people who want to do this and I don't see why GG wouldn't do this.
Ok say we are selling our game for 10 dollars. The person goes to the order page and can download the game and pay the 10 bucks. Fine. However, you can put in an option that would allow the person to get the game shipped to them. However, this costs an extra 3 dollars. Then, if someone orders the game and wants it shipped, you just e-mail us their address and then we burn them a copy of the install CD and send them the game. We would be willing to do this. There would be no work on your part yet you would make an extra 1.50 per sale.
Could you set this up on our order page or the pages of developers who would put in the time and effort to do this.
This is if Burn on demand is not an option at all...
The first question is you said something about burn on demand once is that gone??
But I have a proposal for people who want to do this and I don't see why GG wouldn't do this.
Ok say we are selling our game for 10 dollars. The person goes to the order page and can download the game and pay the 10 bucks. Fine. However, you can put in an option that would allow the person to get the game shipped to them. However, this costs an extra 3 dollars. Then, if someone orders the game and wants it shipped, you just e-mail us their address and then we burn them a copy of the install CD and send them the game. We would be willing to do this. There would be no work on your part yet you would make an extra 1.50 per sale.
Could you set this up on our order page or the pages of developers who would put in the time and effort to do this.
This is if Burn on demand is not an option at all...
#2
06/11/2001 (1:08 pm)
yes I know I'm asking if burn on demand is an option because I was told yes then told you have to download the game. 
#3
The bottom line is this. We want to sell games, and we will do what is appropriate to make that happen. If we don't sell games, we don't make money, and the result of that scenario is not one we want to contemplate.
If we have to burn CD's to make money, we will do it.
Jeff Tunnell GG
06/11/2001 (1:59 pm)
We are not making a promise, but the current plan is to do burn on demand CD's. The reason we are not promising, is because we want to judge our player's demand first.The bottom line is this. We want to sell games, and we will do what is appropriate to make that happen. If we don't sell games, we don't make money, and the result of that scenario is not one we want to contemplate.
If we have to burn CD's to make money, we will do it.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#4
i think downloading / burn on demand is a good option and will probably sell the most games.
Thanks.
06/11/2001 (2:11 pm)
alright thats what i asked before and you said that the players had to download so i was all confused. i think downloading / burn on demand is a good option and will probably sell the most games.
Thanks.
#5
if you do a burn on demand cd what is included in it besides the cd? Maybe a small manual?? What does GG have in mind if you do burn on demand.
06/11/2001 (2:12 pm)
ok questionif you do a burn on demand cd what is included in it besides the cd? Maybe a small manual?? What does GG have in mind if you do burn on demand.
#6
06/11/2001 (3:31 pm)
It would probably be best to put the manual on the CD, as to keep cost and labor to a minimum...
#7
I don't think you are quite grasping the concepts involved here. This is not going to be boxed product, or even resemble it. We are trying things a different way.
I have worked in the industry for over 15 years, and I think things are fundamentally broken. The economics of the industry the way we are doing things right now don't work, and the continued failures and consolidations in the industry prove me out.
Walmart lords over shelf space that allows about 100 titles to be displayed. Costco is even less. If your game doesn't sell in a week, it's outta there.
We are taking the stance that people do not care about the trappings of a product. We feel that fun and innovative games will find an audience. Do we think they will sell in the numbers that boxed products do? No way. But, do we think innovative developers, when given the right tools, can create games that will sell enough to make it worth while? Absolutely.
There are trade offs to make this concept work. One of these trade offs is giving up on the trappings, i.e. box, manual, reg card, etc. Even if we felt these things are important, and we don't, we do not have enough staff to do the stuffing and assembly line work they would require.
Jeff Tunnell GG
06/11/2001 (4:54 pm)
Phil. Just a CD in a mailer. I don't think you are quite grasping the concepts involved here. This is not going to be boxed product, or even resemble it. We are trying things a different way.
I have worked in the industry for over 15 years, and I think things are fundamentally broken. The economics of the industry the way we are doing things right now don't work, and the continued failures and consolidations in the industry prove me out.
Walmart lords over shelf space that allows about 100 titles to be displayed. Costco is even less. If your game doesn't sell in a week, it's outta there.
We are taking the stance that people do not care about the trappings of a product. We feel that fun and innovative games will find an audience. Do we think they will sell in the numbers that boxed products do? No way. But, do we think innovative developers, when given the right tools, can create games that will sell enough to make it worth while? Absolutely.
There are trade offs to make this concept work. One of these trade offs is giving up on the trappings, i.e. box, manual, reg card, etc. Even if we felt these things are important, and we don't, we do not have enough staff to do the stuffing and assembly line work they would require.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#8
06/11/2001 (6:57 pm)
I know that its not going to be a boxed product but I was thinking maybe you could slip a small manual in there but whatever we can just do a web manual or manual on CD same thing ...
#9
*steps down from soapbox*
Now for some facts.
I checked on http://download.com for some download stats --these as of today.
name size #downloads
Tony Hawks Skater Demo : 27MB 978,033
4x4 Evolution final Demo: 33MB 126,652
Tropico Demo : 172MB 28,826
Red Moon Demo : 205MB 106,776
and the winner for most downloads is...
Quake III Arena : 47MB 1,876,600
heh..I'd like to make a buck a sale off any one of those games. ;-)
I realize that these are all free demos, but just wanted to show everyone what COULD happen. *205* MB?! Are you nuts!? Guess not... :-)
Question, Jeff: Will demos like those be put out for published games?
06/11/2001 (7:16 pm)
Good points, Jeff. Something IS fundamentally wrong with that boxed-games scenerio. It's a waste of many resources. I firmly believe that games could and SHOULD be packaged in a jewel case. If screen shots are important, then have a fold out. If the manual is too big for that, then take a second look at your game as ask if it is TOO complicated (I have yet to read a complete manual).*steps down from soapbox*
Now for some facts.
I checked on http://download.com for some download stats --these as of today.
name size #downloads
Tony Hawks Skater Demo : 27MB 978,033
4x4 Evolution final Demo: 33MB 126,652
Tropico Demo : 172MB 28,826
Red Moon Demo : 205MB 106,776
and the winner for most downloads is...
Quake III Arena : 47MB 1,876,600
heh..I'd like to make a buck a sale off any one of those games. ;-)
I realize that these are all free demos, but just wanted to show everyone what COULD happen. *205* MB?! Are you nuts!? Guess not... :-)
Question, Jeff: Will demos like those be put out for published games?
#10
The big boxes are a waste but they are eye candy and it attracts people.
06/12/2001 (3:51 am)
I also agree that PC Games should be sold like Dreamcast and DVD's (Ps2 games) are sold now ...The big boxes are a waste but they are eye candy and it attracts people.
#11
06/12/2001 (6:30 am)
Eric, I'd say that if you want a demo released for any game you publish for sale through GG, it'd be entirely up to you. IE, you make it and release it as freeware through GG.
#12
most games are sold in dvd boxes
its just marketing why one uses big boxes
a big box attracts one more than a small jewel case
and u can pack much more screenshots on the back to sho the player how good looking the game is (hello photoshop hello westwood ;-P) and one can pack some information on the back about the game
u dont know how much people go to a shop without knowing wich game to buy
they need infos and therefore the back of a box is used
06/12/2001 (9:04 am)
wellmost games are sold in dvd boxes
its just marketing why one uses big boxes
a big box attracts one more than a small jewel case
and u can pack much more screenshots on the back to sho the player how good looking the game is (hello photoshop hello westwood ;-P) and one can pack some information on the back about the game
u dont know how much people go to a shop without knowing wich game to buy
they need infos and therefore the back of a box is used
#13
Jeff Tunnell GG
06/12/2001 (9:18 am)
It will be up to the developer to create a demo. I think selling a game via ESD without having a demo would be impossible, but we are not going to require it.Jeff Tunnell GG
#14
As far as the reason for big boxes, I completely understand. Same reason that aspirin comes in a bottle twice the size it needs to be--we feel we are getting more for our buck.
I'm just saying that I think it's a waste of good environemtal resources. I know it's not a waste of advertising money.
06/12/2001 (11:17 am)
Thanks, Jeff.As far as the reason for big boxes, I completely understand. Same reason that aspirin comes in a bottle twice the size it needs to be--we feel we are getting more for our buck.
I'm just saying that I think it's a waste of good environemtal resources. I know it's not a waste of advertising money.
#15
What else can you weed out?
06/12/2001 (1:39 pm)
hmm now when you create a demo what do you make your full game and then weed out everything you don't need. Like take out most of the maps, some of the player models, some of the options. What else can you weed out?
#16
Simply put, if ESD sales fail, GarageGames will probably not succeed. So physical distribution is simply an extra, and I think GarageGames should stay focused until it can afford to branch out.
Physical distribution by mail is a complex operation. For a brief example the cost of Tread Marks from Longbow Digital Arts for a European customer is $46, of which $19 is the base game price. Then the customer will have to pay import duty (at some expense and hassle). Of course, you can decide not to export CDs, but there are many other problems involved.
GarageGames can't ask you to do this distribution, as if you failed to uphold your contractual obligation to GG (and there would have to be one) then GG would face bad publicity and potential legal proceedings.
On another note, I also think the environmental impact of physical distribution might be higher, but I need to investigate that further.
Doug. EnkiSoftware Limited
Edit: just wanted to say that I am sure that GG are fully aware of the issues.
06/13/2001 (10:49 am)
Re: Burn on demand CDsSimply put, if ESD sales fail, GarageGames will probably not succeed. So physical distribution is simply an extra, and I think GarageGames should stay focused until it can afford to branch out.
Physical distribution by mail is a complex operation. For a brief example the cost of Tread Marks from Longbow Digital Arts for a European customer is $46, of which $19 is the base game price. Then the customer will have to pay import duty (at some expense and hassle). Of course, you can decide not to export CDs, but there are many other problems involved.
GarageGames can't ask you to do this distribution, as if you failed to uphold your contractual obligation to GG (and there would have to be one) then GG would face bad publicity and potential legal proceedings.
On another note, I also think the environmental impact of physical distribution might be higher, but I need to investigate that further.
Doug. EnkiSoftware Limited
Edit: just wanted to say that I am sure that GG are fully aware of the issues.
#17
06/14/2001 (1:18 am)
Yeah someone suggested the customer pay $5 extra or something like that. I think CD on demand is more likely to be $20 or so extra if its going to be a viable option.
#19
Ahh... can't forget profit in there too!
06/14/2001 (3:46 am)
Unfortunately, that may be fairly close. This isn't stamping--it's burning. You computer is down for as long as it takes to burn all the cds. You have to buy the CD($1?), jewelcase, label it, pay shipping and taxes (unless you defer them to the customer). That's not including wear-n-tear/maintenance, depreciation of equipment and so forth. Ahh... can't forget profit in there too!
#20
Jeff Tunnell GG
06/14/2001 (6:35 am)
I'm thinking more like $5-6 per CD. $.50 for the CD, $1 for packing material, $2 for shipping, $1.50 handling, $1 expenses such as hardware depreciation, rent, etc. That is cutting it really close, and includes no profit. We would assume the profit comes in the game itself, not the transfer to the different medium.Jeff Tunnell GG
Torque 3D Owner Eric Forhan
I think burn on demand is an excellent idea--I know I'd rather have a hard copy of ANYTHING I bought-- but one best left to GG (unless they decide to outsource it).
Of course, they also have 6 months or more to decide on this.