Please answer GG about whats included in game packagw
by JoeSmith · in Torque Game Engine · 06/09/2001 (2:45 pm) · 20 replies
Just wondering about this ... Someone buys your game through electronic distrbution, what do they get. They get a CD, what kind of case is it in? Normal Plastic? Does it have a little insert with our games logo? Can a small manual be included?
Please Answer GG.
Thanks.
Please Answer GG.
Thanks.
#3
In my opinion, the only problem with electronic distribution at this point is the enormous number of people who are currently stuck using modems, due to distance from their central office (DSL) or a cable company that doesn't feel like wiring their areas for cable modems (unless they live so far out that they can't even get cable). Good high-speed up/down satellite and wireless technology is still unavailable to most, or can be ridiculously costly. Hence, you get people like me, who will probably be stuck on modems forever. I'm not happy about it, but I accept it.
Getting down to the reason, I generally fear any file download whose size is in excess of twenty megs. As it stands, that would take me about three and a half hours; so you can see how long it would take to download an installer for something larger than a demo, or even today's demos (Tropico's demo clocks in at 172 megs).
Granted, there are fewer modem-users every day, but there will always be the ones who feel left out because they can't get high-speed access, which is their gateway to playing anything that is exclusively electronically distributed. You can either say, "Ha ha, sucks to be you," or try and figure out some kind of compromise, but the problem should still be (and probably has been) addressed. Then again, it's just something that probably goes along with being a modem-user. I'm not happy about it, but I accept it.
06/09/2001 (7:34 pm)
(I said this sort of thing in someone's plan file yesterday, but it seems somewhat relevant to the question at hand.)In my opinion, the only problem with electronic distribution at this point is the enormous number of people who are currently stuck using modems, due to distance from their central office (DSL) or a cable company that doesn't feel like wiring their areas for cable modems (unless they live so far out that they can't even get cable). Good high-speed up/down satellite and wireless technology is still unavailable to most, or can be ridiculously costly. Hence, you get people like me, who will probably be stuck on modems forever. I'm not happy about it, but I accept it.
Getting down to the reason, I generally fear any file download whose size is in excess of twenty megs. As it stands, that would take me about three and a half hours; so you can see how long it would take to download an installer for something larger than a demo, or even today's demos (Tropico's demo clocks in at 172 megs).
Granted, there are fewer modem-users every day, but there will always be the ones who feel left out because they can't get high-speed access, which is their gateway to playing anything that is exclusively electronically distributed. You can either say, "Ha ha, sucks to be you," or try and figure out some kind of compromise, but the problem should still be (and probably has been) addressed. Then again, it's just something that probably goes along with being a modem-user. I'm not happy about it, but I accept it.
#4
However I am basing my decision to use V12 on the assumption that enough others do not feel the same way and also on the hope that GGs will continue to consider the "CD on demand" possibility.
06/09/2001 (7:44 pm)
I do not disagree with GGs decision to us ESD, or any other aspects of the V12 license. But I do agree with Thomas. It is very unlikely that I would purchase a game that required a download of more than 50MB. It is also unlikely that I would be intersted in very many games that were under 50MB.However I am basing my decision to use V12 on the assumption that enough others do not feel the same way and also on the hope that GGs will continue to consider the "CD on demand" possibility.
#5
Can we buy bulk copies of our own game, maybe for a slightly discounted price??
06/09/2001 (8:25 pm)
You have to download the game? Woah that changes everything. I'm sorry but I find that dumb. Games are getting bigger and bigger and not enough people have broadband. Can we buy bulk copies of our own game, maybe for a slightly discounted price??
#6
To get to the modem based players, you need to be creative and develop for the market. Back in the days when we had to ship a product on two floppies, we had to figure out how to do it. Now, you need to consider thin pipes as a distribution mechanism, and you need to figure out how to do it.
Those of you that are simply saying that your game is going to be 50-100 megs are going to lose. You need to consider how to split the game into chapters, or parts, or whatever. Keep the art to a minimum, but still keep it fun. Find compression algorithms. Don't use as much voice.
I don't know what the answer is, all I know is that it can be done. I absolutely know great games can be made that are small enough and fun enough to make modem players purchase and download the game.
We have also discussed letting players choose to pay an additional sum of money for a burn on demand CD. This would not be anything fancy. The will be no printed doco or fancy boxes.
Phil, our ESD idea is not dumb. You should read the FAQ so you understand what we are trying to accomplish here. We have been very straight forward about how we are doing distribution using ESD. We are not going to allow you to make bulk CD's of your game and sell them from your site.
Jeff Tunnell GG
06/09/2001 (9:48 pm)
Nine million people currently have broadband connections, and the number is increasing at a rapid rate. It will take you a year to make a decent game, and by that time there will be twelve million BB connections. That is a pretty good installed base for developers looking for niche markets.To get to the modem based players, you need to be creative and develop for the market. Back in the days when we had to ship a product on two floppies, we had to figure out how to do it. Now, you need to consider thin pipes as a distribution mechanism, and you need to figure out how to do it.
Those of you that are simply saying that your game is going to be 50-100 megs are going to lose. You need to consider how to split the game into chapters, or parts, or whatever. Keep the art to a minimum, but still keep it fun. Find compression algorithms. Don't use as much voice.
I don't know what the answer is, all I know is that it can be done. I absolutely know great games can be made that are small enough and fun enough to make modem players purchase and download the game.
We have also discussed letting players choose to pay an additional sum of money for a burn on demand CD. This would not be anything fancy. The will be no printed doco or fancy boxes.
Phil, our ESD idea is not dumb. You should read the FAQ so you understand what we are trying to accomplish here. We have been very straight forward about how we are doing distribution using ESD. We are not going to allow you to make bulk CD's of your game and sell them from your site.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#7
06/09/2001 (11:23 pm)
Modem are spooked by large downloads? Nah, it all depends on the user and the quality of the game. If they've heard good things about it they'll download it no matter how large it is. How do I know? Simple: I am, as I'm typing this, in the process of downloading a 599MB zip file over my 56k modem. A beta copy of Anarchy Online (there's no NDA in this phase of the test, so I can talk about it), not even a finished product but I'm ready to devote my tiny bandwidth to it.
#8
There are two basic problems, both of which GarageGames will probably help to alleviate.
The first is wether people will pay to buy something 'non-physical'. GarageGames will help create a legitimacy to the this method, perhaps in the same way that MacDonalds made taking the family out for a burger a legitimate activity.
The second is exposure. Small games developers (shareware etc.) without publishers previously had to offer their demo for download before they could gain any exposure. Few people would initially download the demo, as without exposure there was a risk that the time spent downloading would be wasted. GarageGames will help here by exposing games on their website to the public, and their name will help in getting games exposure on news sites. However, demo file size should still be kept low as although Rage with Offroad can attract a few hundred thousand downloads of hundred meg file, unknown developers may not. Our own game demo Avoyd is 1.2Mb, and is a fully functional multiplay FPS. We could even have made it smaller, as our audio was not compressed, but we had to cut functionality to meet our (self-imposed) deadline.
Just don't expect 300,000 sales, so if you want to make the next Half-Life, Deus Ex or Final Fantasy then make it a chapter at a time if you don't want development costs and time to explode beyond your possible return.
Remember Nintendo - there are many great games on the N64 which way in less than Rage's Offroad, and probably offer greater depth of play. And that's without the PC's power and hard disk which will allow you to build much of the games content at the users end.
Of course, the main reason ESD will work is that I have my fingers crossed on both hands.
Doug. Avoyd
06/10/2001 (2:46 am)
File download rather than posting a CD is a valid distribution method for games. Take a quick look at any games download site, such as www.3dfiles.com or www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?section=333. In May 2001, the most downloaded action game from fileplanet was 197.7Mb, at 25,151 downloads, and from 3DFILES was 104 Megs at a stunning 161,270 downloads. The lesson here is: if your game is of sufficient interest people will download it.There are two basic problems, both of which GarageGames will probably help to alleviate.
The first is wether people will pay to buy something 'non-physical'. GarageGames will help create a legitimacy to the this method, perhaps in the same way that MacDonalds made taking the family out for a burger a legitimate activity.
The second is exposure. Small games developers (shareware etc.) without publishers previously had to offer their demo for download before they could gain any exposure. Few people would initially download the demo, as without exposure there was a risk that the time spent downloading would be wasted. GarageGames will help here by exposing games on their website to the public, and their name will help in getting games exposure on news sites. However, demo file size should still be kept low as although Rage with Offroad can attract a few hundred thousand downloads of hundred meg file, unknown developers may not. Our own game demo Avoyd is 1.2Mb, and is a fully functional multiplay FPS. We could even have made it smaller, as our audio was not compressed, but we had to cut functionality to meet our (self-imposed) deadline.
Just don't expect 300,000 sales, so if you want to make the next Half-Life, Deus Ex or Final Fantasy then make it a chapter at a time if you don't want development costs and time to explode beyond your possible return.
Remember Nintendo - there are many great games on the N64 which way in less than Rage's Offroad, and probably offer greater depth of play. And that's without the PC's power and hard disk which will allow you to build much of the games content at the users end.
Of course, the main reason ESD will work is that I have my fingers crossed on both hands.
Doug. Avoyd
#9
I remember you saying something about burn on demand CD's so I figured that you would be sending CD's out ..
I didn't mean to insult your distribution method it's just when people can actually hold a game it makes a big difference, hence why esd hasn't become as popular as people think it has become and retail is still huge.
06/10/2001 (3:05 am)
It's not just the download that I think is dumb, its that as someone mentioned above people have a hard time buying something thats not physical. They say hmmm can I download a game (or a mod) for free or download a game for money.I remember you saying something about burn on demand CD's so I figured that you would be sending CD's out ..
I didn't mean to insult your distribution method it's just when people can actually hold a game it makes a big difference, hence why esd hasn't become as popular as people think it has become and retail is still huge.
#10
In the near future, ESD of some form will be very significant in the games industry. Which do you do more of now, writing a letter to your friends to arrange a meeting, or email/icq/forum post/phone? Soon, when your friend gets in touch and says "hey wow, I'm playing this great new online game, why don't you join me", will you want to go down to the store, and maybe join them in a few hours, or just get it via the internet, and join in immediately?
Granted, the distribution of broadband technology needs to improve, but getting there at the right time is important. Hopefully now is the right time!
Doug. EnkiSoftware Limited
06/10/2001 (5:32 am)
Although ESD isn't as popular as retail distribution of CDs and won't be for some time, it will probably soon outstrip burn on demand CD distribution, if it hasn't already.In the near future, ESD of some form will be very significant in the games industry. Which do you do more of now, writing a letter to your friends to arrange a meeting, or email/icq/forum post/phone? Soon, when your friend gets in touch and says "hey wow, I'm playing this great new online game, why don't you join me", will you want to go down to the store, and maybe join them in a few hours, or just get it via the internet, and join in immediately?
Granted, the distribution of broadband technology needs to improve, but getting there at the right time is important. Hopefully now is the right time!
Doug. EnkiSoftware Limited
#11
So we would be our own Publisher and u would get your 20%
Stefan
06/10/2001 (6:45 am)
well cant we burn the cds ourself if some player would like to have the game but are not going to download it?So we would be our own Publisher and u would get your 20%
Stefan
#12
06/10/2001 (8:21 am)
Stephan that wouldn't fly with them because they would be getting 30% less than normal. You have to realize, GG isn't a standard publisher, since they are giving us this game engine very cheap they can control what we do with the game, how we sell it, how people get it etc.
#13
Jeff Tunnell GG
06/10/2001 (8:24 am)
I'm dropping out of this debate now. We have stated our case, and I don't think a lot of forum discussion will materially change anyone's mind. Jeff Tunnell GG
#14
06/10/2001 (10:35 am)
ESD is great, I bought a couple games from shareware authors via ESD and I don't know how many other types of apps and utilities. Admitly, not everyone will want to buy via ESD. No prob, that's where burn on demand would come in. Personally speaking, I'd much rather have GG handling all of my distribution for me, thus freeing me up to devote my time to new projects or sequals.
#15
Case #1:
I want a game. It is not available via ESD. I have to drive a half hour to the nearest mall to buy it. And drive back. Then check to see if there is a patch and download that.
Case #2:
I want a game. I can download it from a website. It is the most recent version. I am playing a half-hour later.
The boxes and stuff are nice, but really, they just start to create clutter after awhile. I would like to have an archival copy, and maybe a printed manual, but I will trade that for instant gratification.
Anyone who needs an example, look at Counter-strike. That was the number one online game way before it hit retail. It's free, but it still shows if someone wants something, they will take the time to get it.
I think one chief difference might be the potential audience. No sure what the prevalence of credit cards is among teenagers and younger, but at that age it is probably easier to buy it. Also, having less money at that age, something tangible might be more important.
If your game is good, there is an audience. It just may not be the one you are currently in.
06/10/2001 (5:21 pm)
Well I have broadband, and I have to say I love ESD.Case #1:
I want a game. It is not available via ESD. I have to drive a half hour to the nearest mall to buy it. And drive back. Then check to see if there is a patch and download that.
Case #2:
I want a game. I can download it from a website. It is the most recent version. I am playing a half-hour later.
The boxes and stuff are nice, but really, they just start to create clutter after awhile. I would like to have an archival copy, and maybe a printed manual, but I will trade that for instant gratification.
Anyone who needs an example, look at Counter-strike. That was the number one online game way before it hit retail. It's free, but it still shows if someone wants something, they will take the time to get it.
I think one chief difference might be the potential audience. No sure what the prevalence of credit cards is among teenagers and younger, but at that age it is probably easier to buy it. Also, having less money at that age, something tangible might be more important.
If your game is good, there is an audience. It just may not be the one you are currently in.
#16
If you think about it, lets say your game has 8 tracks of MP3 audio each being 5MB, you already have 40MB without any other content at all. It just doesn't take much for a game to get that large these days.
I would not buy an ESD game if it were over 60MB -even if it were Doom 3 or Unreal 2. Most good games are over that size these days.
However, if it were an electronic order for a burn on demand CD I would purchase it.
*****
To Jeff Tunnell,
I know I'm just a nobody here, but it seems there are a lot of people who feel the way I do about this. I strongly suggest you at least consider to do a poll on whether burn on demand should be done. It could sway a huge amount of non-believers in your direction...
06/10/2001 (6:22 pm)
First off, I have DSL.If you think about it, lets say your game has 8 tracks of MP3 audio each being 5MB, you already have 40MB without any other content at all. It just doesn't take much for a game to get that large these days.
I would not buy an ESD game if it were over 60MB -even if it were Doom 3 or Unreal 2. Most good games are over that size these days.
However, if it were an electronic order for a burn on demand CD I would purchase it.
*****
To Jeff Tunnell,
I know I'm just a nobody here, but it seems there are a lot of people who feel the way I do about this. I strongly suggest you at least consider to do a poll on whether burn on demand should be done. It could sway a huge amount of non-believers in your direction...
#17
And I might be wrong - but I think Jeff said they are considering burn on demand in his first reply
06/10/2001 (6:32 pm)
DSL - and you wouldnt download more than 60MB - what do you have it for then?And I might be wrong - but I think Jeff said they are considering burn on demand in his first reply
#18
At least DSL is less expensive than ISDN though.
BTW, I just realised that maybe it's not up to Jeff. It could be that Sierra's lawyers have said no to physical distribution of V12 games via GarageGames. If that's the case, I understand... Legal issues such as that are not to be messed with.
06/10/2001 (6:38 pm)
I'm at the tail end of the furthest distance you can be from the switching station... in other words, I get about the performance of ISDN. At least DSL is less expensive than ISDN though.
BTW, I just realised that maybe it's not up to Jeff. It could be that Sierra's lawyers have said no to physical distribution of V12 games via GarageGames. If that's the case, I understand... Legal issues such as that are not to be messed with.
#19
If you do not feel this is fair or doesn't fit your development goals, eg. not being able to sell burn-on-demand cds, then you should look into licensing another engine. Personally, ESD works fine for me which is why the v12 is an engine I wouldn't mind licensing, and for only $100 USD, what more could you ask for?
For whatever reason the current GarageGames license only allows for ESD unless Sierra decided to publish it in stores (or some other publisher after Sierra had the first chance at it). Now, for whatever legal reasons, personal reasons, or any other reasons, GarageGames has their license setup the way they do for a reason. If the license does not fit your development goals, as I've been over before, then you should probabbly not be licensing the engine. There is no use arguing about something that you won't be able to change in the near future, if ever.
The answer to all of your problems is plain and simple: If the v12 and it's licensing agreement does not meet your needs then DO NOT license it! See, how hard was that? ;-)
Ryan J. Parker
rjp@awingsoftware.com
www.awingsoftware.com
06/10/2001 (7:23 pm)
For those of you that do not feel the current ESD only system is fair, then maybe you should look at licensing another engine.If you do not feel this is fair or doesn't fit your development goals, eg. not being able to sell burn-on-demand cds, then you should look into licensing another engine. Personally, ESD works fine for me which is why the v12 is an engine I wouldn't mind licensing, and for only $100 USD, what more could you ask for?
For whatever reason the current GarageGames license only allows for ESD unless Sierra decided to publish it in stores (or some other publisher after Sierra had the first chance at it). Now, for whatever legal reasons, personal reasons, or any other reasons, GarageGames has their license setup the way they do for a reason. If the license does not fit your development goals, as I've been over before, then you should probabbly not be licensing the engine. There is no use arguing about something that you won't be able to change in the near future, if ever.
The answer to all of your problems is plain and simple: If the v12 and it's licensing agreement does not meet your needs then DO NOT license it! See, how hard was that? ;-)
Ryan J. Parker
rjp@awingsoftware.com
www.awingsoftware.com
#20
I have to agree with Ryan Parker and Jeff Tunnell on this, everyone. Yes, I'm a modem-user (and the writer of one of the above tirades), but I'm also an aspiring developer, which means that I can't really complain about a company that would distribute my project in any way, shape or form. I mean, EA probably isn't going to pick me up for a multi-game contract, because I have no portfolio. This is how it is for a lot of the people here.
The fact is, while you might feel as a developer that you're losing out on a large section of the game-playing community by having to release your game exclusively through ESD, you have to understand that it is better than nothing. You can either make no money and no one will see your game; or Garage Games can distribute it, and at least the millions of broadband people might download it.
Further, as Doug Binks mentioned, people will download anything if they are sufficiently interested in it, regardless of size. As I type this, there are thousands of people like Paul downloading the 600 meg zip file of the Anarchy Online beta; and even the broadband people might be getting some really poor transfer rates, due to the European location of the servers and the enormous number of people currently downloading. But they will continue to download it because they really want to check it out.
Now, Jeff was absolutely right in his point regarding file size. I went through my archives today for all of the games I thoroughly enjoyed prior to the advent of the CD-ROM, and there are certainly a lot of them. This is to say that concessions will have to be made when it comes down to distribution. Things might have to be stripped down, but as long as the game is still functional and the gameplay still ranks as enjoyable, people will download it.
The modem-users might be hesitant to download it, but how many of them were playing Counter Strike when it was exclusively available as a download? Counter Strike became a phenomenon, and I know several fellow modem-users who let their computers run overnight to get the mod downloaded. They'll do it if they're sufficiently excited about the project.
And you know what? You might have to work a lot harder on the marketing of the game in order to get these people to check it out. You might want to create a really kick-ass website to get people to buy/download it from GG. Maybe a demo is in order, and then you can release the full version for a price. If they're sufficiently excited about the full version, not only will they download it; they will also pay for it.
The fact that Jeff and the GG crew have discussed burn-on-demand CD's is enough for me, regardless of whether or not that would ever be implemented; because that's just one more headache for them, and they'd probably have to have a lawyer rewrite several sections of the license; particularly the section regarding whose fifty percent the media would come out of. And there are people who would say, "Why should I have to pay for any section of burning this CD? I want my entire fifty percent!" Headaches, I tell you.
So, what we have to understand is having twelve million potential customers currently wired with broadband connections is one hell of a market. And it is certainly possible to get people without broadband to download large files; but they have to be excited enough about it to outweigh the indesinent (translation: really long) download time.
If you build it, they will download.
06/11/2001 (3:37 am)
Yes, it's another mile-long post.I have to agree with Ryan Parker and Jeff Tunnell on this, everyone. Yes, I'm a modem-user (and the writer of one of the above tirades), but I'm also an aspiring developer, which means that I can't really complain about a company that would distribute my project in any way, shape or form. I mean, EA probably isn't going to pick me up for a multi-game contract, because I have no portfolio. This is how it is for a lot of the people here.
The fact is, while you might feel as a developer that you're losing out on a large section of the game-playing community by having to release your game exclusively through ESD, you have to understand that it is better than nothing. You can either make no money and no one will see your game; or Garage Games can distribute it, and at least the millions of broadband people might download it.
Further, as Doug Binks mentioned, people will download anything if they are sufficiently interested in it, regardless of size. As I type this, there are thousands of people like Paul downloading the 600 meg zip file of the Anarchy Online beta; and even the broadband people might be getting some really poor transfer rates, due to the European location of the servers and the enormous number of people currently downloading. But they will continue to download it because they really want to check it out.
Now, Jeff was absolutely right in his point regarding file size. I went through my archives today for all of the games I thoroughly enjoyed prior to the advent of the CD-ROM, and there are certainly a lot of them. This is to say that concessions will have to be made when it comes down to distribution. Things might have to be stripped down, but as long as the game is still functional and the gameplay still ranks as enjoyable, people will download it.
The modem-users might be hesitant to download it, but how many of them were playing Counter Strike when it was exclusively available as a download? Counter Strike became a phenomenon, and I know several fellow modem-users who let their computers run overnight to get the mod downloaded. They'll do it if they're sufficiently excited about the project.
And you know what? You might have to work a lot harder on the marketing of the game in order to get these people to check it out. You might want to create a really kick-ass website to get people to buy/download it from GG. Maybe a demo is in order, and then you can release the full version for a price. If they're sufficiently excited about the full version, not only will they download it; they will also pay for it.
The fact that Jeff and the GG crew have discussed burn-on-demand CD's is enough for me, regardless of whether or not that would ever be implemented; because that's just one more headache for them, and they'd probably have to have a lawyer rewrite several sections of the license; particularly the section regarding whose fifty percent the media would come out of. And there are people who would say, "Why should I have to pay for any section of burning this CD? I want my entire fifty percent!" Headaches, I tell you.
So, what we have to understand is having twelve million potential customers currently wired with broadband connections is one hell of a market. And it is certainly possible to get people without broadband to download large files; but they have to be excited enough about it to outweigh the indesinent (translation: really long) download time.
If you build it, they will download.
Stefan Brink