I Want My Money Back

#1 Sorry to rain on your parade but it is your fault for not trying the demo first. also things are not as easy as copy paste. sometimes you have to learn. remember you have to walk before you can run

#2 I did download the demo...i got the forge demo and all I could do was look around in it...I was under the impression that the demo just illustrated what the software could do.

I understand that you have to walk before you can run...but I couldn't find any tutorials for using lightwave and torque together. Not to mention the only help I could find cost another $300.

#3 www.gnometech.com/lwdtsmain.shtml
www.gnometech.org/lwdtsdocs.shtml
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.forum.php?qf=133

No charge. :-)

#4 I'm sorry but this reminds me of the "I'm going to sue Fender because I am not a super famous rockstar after purchasing my Fender Guitar"

Actually the post is located at http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/370/7367.

I'm sorry you are not happy with your purchase but really TGE is much easier than most products out there - and definitely the easiest engine to use that is actually worth using for commercial products.

Also, I can't speak for the company obviously since I don't work there. But I find it highly unlikely you will get a refund because you have the seen the source which is what you paid for.

Edit: Not to mention all of those issues could be resolved / figured out before buying the engine by using the demo. You my friend made an ill-informed buying decision and its no one's fault except your own.

Edit2:

Quote:Not to mention the only help I could find cost another $300.

What? Please point me to what help on GarageGames possibly costs $300. You could always ask on the forum for free.

Lastly, do you even own TGEA or are you just bitching for no reason - your profile seems to suggest its the second.

#5 I studied CS in college, although I did not major in it. I'd say I have an entry level understanding of C++ and Visual Basic. I've been using Multimedia fusion for several years now. I was expecting a similar user interface with this engine. I figured my background was enough to qualify me as an "experienced" user.

I can absolutely assure you I own TGEA...I have no other reason to be here.

look up torque school...that's what costs $300.

I just bought a copy of Beyond virtual and already have been able to successfully load my lightwave scenes into the object viewer and the game world, with only minor adjustments. By the way, object viewer comes with Beyond virtual and the whole package is only $150.

perhaps torque works great with other animation programs, but it seems to be quite a pain in the ass when working with lightwave and torque.

you're correct that my decision was ill-informed...but that is because all the information I received came from the garage games website.

why doesn't it say on there that you'll have to install a C++ compiler? why doesn't it say that there is no stand alone application for creating games?

#6

Quote:why doesn't it say that there is no stand alone application for creating games?

The demo you claimed to have downloaded would have shown you that the stand alone application for creating games is freely available. As the demo -is- the engine.

The license you buy is only needed for those who need access to the source code (mostly experience C++ programmers). Now I'm once again sorry you made the mistake but for the most part if you don't need to make modifications to the engine - which will require at least a basic knowledge of c++ - you do not need a license. This is a widely know issue that is regularly addressed.

Quote:why doesn't it say on there that you'll have to install a C++ compiler?

Quote:I figured my background was enough to qualify me as an "experienced" user.

Its not anyone fault you had a misunderstanding of your own capabilities except your own. If you clicked the "experienced" link as I am believing you did. It says the following on the button "Experienced
Already know what you are looking for in a game engine?".

Evidently you did -not- know what you are looking for in a game engine - and instead may have been better off choosing new. http://www.garagegames.com/solutions/beginner/

Again your own misunderstanding of your abilities are to blame - not anyone else.

#7

Quote:why doesn't it say on there that you'll have to install a C++ compiler? why doesn't it say that there is no stand alone application for creating games?

Because you don't? And if you wanted to make engine modifications (not required), there are free compilers you can download from microsoft? Not bad PD compilers either - the best compilers on the planet. Free.

BTW - there is a stand alone app. Run the "SetupNewProject.exe" application. It will create a standalone app for you. For example, run it, and select "Test" for the name. After a minute or so, you will have a folder named "Test" in your project folder. In this folder will be a folder named "Game", complete standalone runtime named "test.exe". I believe this is documented in the "getting started" section of the documentation.

Double click this to run the standalone app - it's a complete demo app with multiple character selection. You'll recognize it as the "T3D" application from the menu. Once the game is loaded, and you're running around, you can edit the mission (or create a new one) by pressing F11. You can modify the scripts for this app using one of the free editors, but personally I like torsion better.

#8 I wasn't aware that the forge demo was able to be edited. I just checked it out now and stand corrected. But still the demo is not very intuitive...when you open it and move the mouse around...it only moves the camera, how is someone new to the program supposed to know that you have to press F11?

Your responses sound rather condescending, now I don't know whether it is a lack of inflection (as I am reading your responses and not hearing them) or you are trying to be condescending. I'm not an idiot, I'm actually quite intelligent and talented. I'm not the only person who's had issues with the torque engine.

My best friend works at Carnegie Mellon teaching a summer camp for young aspiring game designers, he was speaking with the staff and found out that last year they were going to teach torque but the staff couldn't figure out how to make the engine work at all. Now Carnegie Mellon is a very prestigious college, and if its staff couldn't figure out the torque engine, it obviously cannot be very user friendly.

#9 The explanations are useless.
Is a whole different reality; go figure, this guy see himself as an "experienced user"... even the term "user" is out of place.

When people rant, and curse, and blame on the forums like this, it reminds me that its the price to pay for having an engine at the cost of a toy. And then I remind myself that its why I have access to it, because of the democratized cost.

So, I usually just ignore the guy, look elsewhere and keep working. And I really recommend to others to do so.

#10

Quote:look up torque school...that's what costs $300.

Um, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that Torque School is not a GG "product".

I don't think that we should be critical of Steven, even the best of us can be lured into buying something that isn't for us, even with all of the information available. Torque has never been marketed to suggest that it is a "game maker" and there are so many posts on this forum that go into detail on what Torque is capable of "out-of-the-box" on this very forum.

I am positive that you know that developing games comes at a significant cost. GG have reduced that cost by providing a robust "engine" to help you develop your game. What they cannot do is provide you with the knowledge to create one.

I see, in your profile, that you haven't been a very active member of the community. The community is an excellent place for you to learn how to use Torque. I cannot emphasise this point strongly enough.

By the way, you purchased TGEA is that correct? I noticed that you took the time to point out what GG has "[falsely]" advertised, but neglected to take note of one important point. Torque Game Engine Advanced. Also, please refer to the TGEA product page:

Quote:TGEA is not a beginner's engine. You need to have a solid foundation for scripting, editing, physics, networking, animation, and debugging if you want to finish [your] game...

#11

Quote:Your responses sound rather condescending, now I don't know whether it is a lack of inflection (as I am reading your responses and not hearing them) or you are trying to be condescending. I'm not an idiot, I'm actually quite intelligent and talented.

Be that as it may be - TGEA is a tool for experienced game developers and is marketed to such. If you have issues with it, it may be because you are not an experienced game developer.

This is much as you would expect if you bought some power tools and expected to build a house. Its not the power tools' manufacturer's fault you did not have the knowledge to do so.

For my part yes I am basically being an ass to you - but only because you are being an ass to a company which has done no wrong. Also you need to realize you are not as smart as you claim otherwise we would not be having this conversation.

*Bows out before things get to massively ugly*

#12 I apologize if I offended anyone by my posts, that was not my intention. I was only looking for a response from garagegames. It probably wasn't in my best interest to make a post in the height of my frustration. I think i have my answer regarding the refund. The majority of my frustration comes from a project that I started in multimedia fusion where I was rendering out 3d animations and importing the uncompressed avis as characters in the game. As you can imagine, It started taking up quite a bit more memory than I had anticipated, then I discovered that there was no way to export MMF2 files to be run on consoles. I ran into these problems after 6 months of development and have not found a confirmed solution yet. I'm sure you all can relate to the frustration of losing several months of work on something you've been spending the majority of your free time working on. I definitely bought this engine before doing the proper research as an act of desperation to save my half finished project.

best of luck with your projects.
Sorry again.

#13 Ironically, I chose this engine because it would be more work( the price was a plus too) because it would make me a better developer by doing the work and learning from it. I have a degree in CS and can tell you college doesn't teach you everything.

Frankly, from the companies that I have been getting offers from ( Darn still got a couple years till I retire from the Air Force), they were willing to offer more for someone that could get into the guts rather than someone that could just throw a few things together.

Just some food for thought before you give up on something that could really boost your employment value or if nothing else expand your knowledge.

#14 @Steven
You say the following bulleted items are false advertisement. I would like to comment on my experience with each bulleted item listed.

*Optimized to take advantage of modern hardware
"Works great on the 8800GTX, Dual-Core AMD 6000"

*Limitless dynamically paged terrain with the Atlas terrain system
"Tested ... definitly limitless, l3dt is great too"

*Custom and built-in shaders including normal maps, specular highlights, cubemapping, glow, and refraction
"These seem to work without issue"

*Powerful WYSIWYG Mission Editor
"OMG, the BEST mission editor EVER! Very easy to use."

*Fast and flexible GUI Editor
"F10 and I'm off making GUI's"

*Easy integration with many 3D modeling packages
"I've used 3DSMAX, Milkshape, Houdini and Lightwave, they all work GREAT for making 3D models"

*Real-time Terrain Editor
"This thing is SICK, works fantastic.... absolutely love it. Plus MegaTerrains are awesome!"

*Award winning real-time networking
"No complaints here, works just fine"

*Powerful and easy-to-use scripting language
"By far one of the most powerful scripting languages for an engine, kind of like QuakeC on steroids!"

Anyway, just my two cents on my experience. It just really sounds like you bit off more than you could chew. No offense.

#15 Hey All. I wish I could have seen this post earlier, but things have a been a bit busy for me lately.

To Steven's credit, the artist documentation has not exactly been top notch. Most updated documentation, with the exception of recent TGEA docs, has been user contributed and directly geared toward non-lightwave exporters.

That would make it difficult for a newcomer to Torque Technology, who is a Lightwave user, to learn how to get his models into something as complex as TGEA.

We're putting forth a serious effort to improve documentation for Torque Technology, and this includes artist docs. Quite a few users from a CS background are completely lost when it comes to game development, but that isn't their fault. General CS is a whole different beast from game development.

Vice versa, since I went to a college dedicated to game design and development, I missed out on some critical CS knowledge I could have used. For example: I thought I was a hot shot programmer, being a game developer. Someone threw this code at me and asked what the results would be:

int h = 10; h = h++;

With a big smile on my face I proclaimed: "11 ftw!". I spent the rest of my afternoon researching Undefined Behavior in C++ with a more humble mindset =)

The lesson: Do not assume that someone from one field of development should be completely comfortable with another. There are some givens when you pick up TGEA, such as knowing how to develop and compile code, understanding of game engine technology, lots of time to learn the system, and the core features that would allow you to test drive it first (TorqueScript).

Seems like I'm playing both sides of the argument right now, and that's because both sides have valid points. Maybe through this thread we can all understand each other and improve the newcomer's experience to Torque.

More artist docs on the way folks =)

#16 Steven,

I struggled with getting models from Lightwave in Torque as well but I persisted, asked questions in the forums and worked it out. I'd be happy to help you out if you need.

You can find a play by play here.

...or you can get me on MSN using the email in my profile.

Patrick

#17 @Steven - I import static and animated meshes from Lightwave all the time. I can help you out if you need assistance to get started.

#18 @Steven - You'll never find a standalone application that is a real game engine. I haven't seen any good ones at least, any you would find as such are usually drag&drop game makers. No matter what engine you use (from Torque, to Source, to Unreal) if you want to make anything more than a map you will need to edit scripts outside the engine .exe. And still, Torque is very flexible with it's script compared to other engines, where you can create most items, weapons, and objects you'll ever need without changes to the C++ source code. An entire game can be written in script only (though you wouldn't be able to have good AI...). To create or edit something such as a weapon in Source requires going into the C++.

Don't worry about not knowing how to do something and it not being documented, or GG not having an answer right away. The Torque engines are very community supported and almost any question you have we will gladly answer or help with. It's good to see you're getting over the frustration and people are willing to help. Since you already purchased it, I hope you can at least try Torque out. If you'd like to learn a little more about scripts or how TGEA works, TDN isn't a bad place to start.

@Michael Perry - A bit off-topic, but I feel kind of dumb now... Why doesn't

int h = 10; h = h++;

equal 11? And why is it h = h++; and not just h++; ?

#19 I said the following in my last post:

Quote:I spent the rest of my afternoon researching Undefined Behavior

An experienced C++ developer will recognize that code example, as it's almost as widely used as "Hello, World."

The answer is not 11. The answer is "Undefined Behavior". This is a very interesting topic to study if you are a C++ developer. Pete Isensee gave a really cool key-note at GDC '08 about the content.

Check out his website: Tantalon. Look for Chills and Thrills: Undefined Behavior in C++. At the beginning of the talk he had a list of code samples as a quiz. You were expected to raise your hand during each sample if you thought code was undefined, unspecified, or implementation-defined behavior.

I failed.....horribly....

Sorry to hijack the purpose of the thread, but all above data was used to prove my point...that's my story and I'm sticking to it...

#20

Quote:@Michael Perry - A bit off-topic, but I feel kind of dumb now... Why doesn't

int h = 10; h = h++;

equal 11? And why is it h = h++; and not just h++; ?

Presumably because the evaluation order is:
(evaluate right hand side) (do the postincrement thing) (assign the right hand side to the left hand side)

Except the point in question is that the order of (do the postincrement thing) and (assign the right hand side to the left hand side) isn't technically defined. I would expect a compiler to do it in the order I listed first, but behaviour, as mentioned, is actually undefined.

Quote:And why is it h = h++; and not just h++; ?

Because that's the whole point of the question :-)

Gary (-;