Large-scale freeform roguelike
by Kevin James · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 07/08/2008 (6:31 am) · 11 replies
Imagine a game where you can be a honorable knight leading armies against his enemies while mounted on his trusty steed, or an extremely fast monk who can break the necks of his enemies using only his bare hands, or a stealthy assassin who dispatches his enemies by introducing his knife to their throat. Imagine a game where as a warlord, you can lead your barbarian hordes around the countryside literally burning down the towns of those who stand in your way and capturing the strongholds of your enemies, or where you can opt to be a trader who travels with his large caravan to various cities finding the best deals and taking advantage of the free market system. Imagine a game where you have an entire medieval world to explore without hindrances of some ridiculous super plot where an evil warlock wants to destroy the entire world . . . and only you can stop him. Perhaps an evil warlock would rise up, but he would quickly be destroyed as the armies of kings march upon his pathetic little hut in the woods. That would be fun to watch.
Now you're all thinking: "What are you waiting for, Kevin? Make this wonderful game!"
Well my friends, a game like this is nearly impossible to make. Especially if you are pining for Oblivion graphics. Truly, graphics only complicate matters. Why busy myself with bump maps, pixel shaders and refractive water when we all know what a rock, what a forest, and yes; even what a lake looks like. The best graphics in the world are up in your head because in your head is the best reality for you. (A scary thought; let's hope its pretty close to what reality actualy is) Now, if your mind was a black pit as you were trying to imagine an honorable knight, or lightning fast monk, you've probably played too much Elder Scrolls, and it has turned your brain into a cup of soup. The only veritable solution is to either read a fantasy book, or play Dwarf Fortress, the biggest inspiration for my idea.
Instead of graphics, you would have something closer to a game board, but think roguelike games such as Dwarf Fortress, Rogue, or any other ASCII games as opposed to Risk. The game would have an ASCII theme, but it would not be bound by a grid. In other words, characters and tile would be text, but you can rotate freely and move in what ever direction you darn well please.
For handling such a dynamic and large world, I have been considering broad and narrow event phases.
The broad phase would contain:
world
continent
nation
region
city
town
village
adjacent world area to player if he/she is on the battle map.
Note: World area would be the "tiles" on a world map, each measuring perhaps 30 miles, whereas the battle area tiles would measure perhaps 10 feet.
The narrow event phase would simply be all AI turns in the battle area, or city you are visiting.
I apologize; I am doing a terrible job explaining that last part. You really ought to play Dwarf Fortress adventurer mode in order to get a feel for what I'm going for. But anyway, what does anyone think of this idea?
Now you're all thinking: "What are you waiting for, Kevin? Make this wonderful game!"
Well my friends, a game like this is nearly impossible to make. Especially if you are pining for Oblivion graphics. Truly, graphics only complicate matters. Why busy myself with bump maps, pixel shaders and refractive water when we all know what a rock, what a forest, and yes; even what a lake looks like. The best graphics in the world are up in your head because in your head is the best reality for you. (A scary thought; let's hope its pretty close to what reality actualy is) Now, if your mind was a black pit as you were trying to imagine an honorable knight, or lightning fast monk, you've probably played too much Elder Scrolls, and it has turned your brain into a cup of soup. The only veritable solution is to either read a fantasy book, or play Dwarf Fortress, the biggest inspiration for my idea.
Instead of graphics, you would have something closer to a game board, but think roguelike games such as Dwarf Fortress, Rogue, or any other ASCII games as opposed to Risk. The game would have an ASCII theme, but it would not be bound by a grid. In other words, characters and tile would be text, but you can rotate freely and move in what ever direction you darn well please.
For handling such a dynamic and large world, I have been considering broad and narrow event phases.
The broad phase would contain:
world
continent
nation
region
city
town
village
adjacent world area to player if he/she is on the battle map.
Note: World area would be the "tiles" on a world map, each measuring perhaps 30 miles, whereas the battle area tiles would measure perhaps 10 feet.
The narrow event phase would simply be all AI turns in the battle area, or city you are visiting.
I apologize; I am doing a terrible job explaining that last part. You really ought to play Dwarf Fortress adventurer mode in order to get a feel for what I'm going for. But anyway, what does anyone think of this idea?
About the author
Computer security, digital forensics, and platform jumper enthusiast. shells.myw3b.net/~syreal/
#2
Indeed, Ronny. The lack of any graphical sophistication cuts the development time 100 times, but infinity divided by 100 is still infinity. :)
This would definitely be a very long term project; even if I muster the guts to start it. Dwarf Fortress has been in development for years, though a lot of time has been spent on Fortress mode; I'm wondering what could have been done if all that time was spent on adventure mode.
Yeah, that had been swimming around my head too.
I'm also wondering if the idea attracts people who haven't played any ASCII games before?
07/08/2008 (8:09 am)
Quote:wish I had the infinite time to make it happen :)
Indeed, Ronny. The lack of any graphical sophistication cuts the development time 100 times, but infinity divided by 100 is still infinity. :)
This would definitely be a very long term project; even if I muster the guts to start it. Dwarf Fortress has been in development for years, though a lot of time has been spent on Fortress mode; I'm wondering what could have been done if all that time was spent on adventure mode.
Quote:assassin taking out single targets in well-defended forts
Yeah, that had been swimming around my head too.
I'm also wondering if the idea attracts people who haven't played any ASCII games before?
#4
07/08/2008 (8:39 am)
Yes, it really lacks that EPIC component. In the title, I mean. 
#5
Games like Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, and Icewindale were loads of fun to play with friends. And, their graphics were relatively mediocre. Perhaps they were really good at the time, I don't know. With torques awesome networking, and so many rpg resources already available (dialog and inventory system comes to mind), I don't see why you can't do it on a smaller scale, then get us enthusiasts to come in and beef it up!
07/08/2008 (11:51 am)
Don't forget multiplayer support. I loved ADOM. It was pretty darn hard, but lots of fun. The spells and ranged combat were fun, and there were so many things to do, as well as just trying to stay alive. Now, if it were geared with a coop/multiplayer feature, that would be fun. Games like Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, and Icewindale were loads of fun to play with friends. And, their graphics were relatively mediocre. Perhaps they were really good at the time, I don't know. With torques awesome networking, and so many rpg resources already available (dialog and inventory system comes to mind), I don't see why you can't do it on a smaller scale, then get us enthusiasts to come in and beef it up!
#6
07/08/2008 (11:54 am)
I would love to see/make a roguelike in TGB.
#7
Eh, multiplayer support would actually be pretty awesome, but that isn't going to be my focus with my roguelike. And actually, as I said in my first post, it will be a roguelike in appearance only. You won't be bound to a grid and you'll probably have the option for mouse control. Not real sure whether a non-grid based roguelike is going to work out or not, but I'm willing to give it a shot once my platformer is done.
The focus I see is a gigantic dynamic world that can be altered and influenced by the player's actions. Also, a focus is interesting combat and character progression.
07/08/2008 (12:41 pm)
Multiplayer support? 3D Graphics? The feature creep is strong in you.Eh, multiplayer support would actually be pretty awesome, but that isn't going to be my focus with my roguelike. And actually, as I said in my first post, it will be a roguelike in appearance only. You won't be bound to a grid and you'll probably have the option for mouse control. Not real sure whether a non-grid based roguelike is going to work out or not, but I'm willing to give it a shot once my platformer is done.
The focus I see is a gigantic dynamic world that can be altered and influenced by the player's actions. Also, a focus is interesting combat and character progression.
#9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfire_(computer_game)
That's somewhat roguelike, although I think the levels aren't random, and the death penalty is not as harsh as ADOM, Nethack and the like. More along the levels of Diablo, a realtime roguelike I hear is popular in some circles.
I don't know how you're going to do multiplayer if you also want it to be like a typical roguelike. Action/movement points? Short countdowns for each player? I'd say you need to have some sort of system where the rules change a bit when in the proximity of other players, like going from turn-based to realtime when somebody's near. Watch out for those monsters which don't take a break now!
Going multiplayer would definitely change the nature of it all. I think just doing a nice, big single-player roguelike with some new ideas/ideas stolen from other types of games is the way to do it.
I'd love to have pack animals or other ways to stash all that nifty loot (sure, thieves would be watching you carefully :). Companions were done in many roguelikes, and even pets you could command. Imagine a turn-based Dungeon Siege without the suck! (You didn't actually play in that game - it handled itself, and you just chose what loot to keep.)
I think doing some simple graphics rather than ASCII is best, though. Lots of nice terrain in the Adventure Kit sold here (I bought it!), and I'm going to make use of that in a TBS I'm planning. Of course, if you want to be surreal, the game could be set in a world populated by differently coloured @ symbols. In 3D.
07/10/2008 (2:41 pm)
There is a game called Crossfire, which is sort of a Gauntlet-based multiplayer game with features of CRPGs:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfire_(computer_game)
That's somewhat roguelike, although I think the levels aren't random, and the death penalty is not as harsh as ADOM, Nethack and the like. More along the levels of Diablo, a realtime roguelike I hear is popular in some circles.
I don't know how you're going to do multiplayer if you also want it to be like a typical roguelike. Action/movement points? Short countdowns for each player? I'd say you need to have some sort of system where the rules change a bit when in the proximity of other players, like going from turn-based to realtime when somebody's near. Watch out for those monsters which don't take a break now!
Going multiplayer would definitely change the nature of it all. I think just doing a nice, big single-player roguelike with some new ideas/ideas stolen from other types of games is the way to do it.
I'd love to have pack animals or other ways to stash all that nifty loot (sure, thieves would be watching you carefully :). Companions were done in many roguelikes, and even pets you could command. Imagine a turn-based Dungeon Siege without the suck! (You didn't actually play in that game - it handled itself, and you just chose what loot to keep.)
I think doing some simple graphics rather than ASCII is best, though. Lots of nice terrain in the Adventure Kit sold here (I bought it!), and I'm going to make use of that in a TBS I'm planning. Of course, if you want to be surreal, the game could be set in a world populated by differently coloured @ symbols. In 3D.
#10
Companions would be a nice feature. My idea is to create a world that is actually interesting, dynamic and alterable. In my mind, the game is a combination of a text adventure and a roguelike. You can choose to have descriptions given to you of the surrounding land, corridors or rooms. This will add visual depth to the game, even though there is only ASCII or simple tile graphics.
In Morrowind, if you kill the King, there is a bounty on your head.
If you kill the king in my dream game, the kingdom will be thrown into chaos, perhaps his heir will take the throne quickly and wisely, perhaps the master general will take command and institute martial law, or perhaps the kingdom will be destroyed by greedy lords who see a opportunity and seize it, dividing up the land amongst themselves.
In Dungeon Siege, if you kill the king, well . . . you can't.
Pack animals would be cool too. Say you can buy 10 of them, hire some guards, and start a caravan that will be very lucrative. I want the game to be very open ended. To say the least.
What's a TBS Ronny?
07/10/2008 (7:02 pm)
Rofl.Companions would be a nice feature. My idea is to create a world that is actually interesting, dynamic and alterable. In my mind, the game is a combination of a text adventure and a roguelike. You can choose to have descriptions given to you of the surrounding land, corridors or rooms. This will add visual depth to the game, even though there is only ASCII or simple tile graphics.
In Morrowind, if you kill the King, there is a bounty on your head.
If you kill the king in my dream game, the kingdom will be thrown into chaos, perhaps his heir will take the throne quickly and wisely, perhaps the master general will take command and institute martial law, or perhaps the kingdom will be destroyed by greedy lords who see a opportunity and seize it, dividing up the land amongst themselves.
In Dungeon Siege, if you kill the king, well . . . you can't.
Pack animals would be cool too. Say you can buy 10 of them, hire some guards, and start a caravan that will be very lucrative. I want the game to be very open ended. To say the least.
What's a TBS Ronny?
#11
Getting a whole society working would be very, very cool. So cool I break rules of writing talking about it. A whole little Kingmaker game embedded in there would be cool :)
See here for a brief summary:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/987
(Hopefully my attempts at delaying your projects will work, so I can get around to finishing any of mine!)
07/10/2008 (7:07 pm)
TBS = turn-based strategy.Getting a whole society working would be very, very cool. So cool I break rules of writing talking about it. A whole little Kingmaker game embedded in there would be cool :)
See here for a brief summary:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/987
(Hopefully my attempts at delaying your projects will work, so I can get around to finishing any of mine!)
Torque 3D Owner Ronny Bangsund
Torque Cheerleaders
I've long wanted to make a game that combines elements of ADOM, Dwarf Fortress (although I hadn't heard of it when I thought of similar things), Elite and Heroes of Might & Magic. Seems like your idea is a bit like that.
Start as a mere adventurer, build up to be a warlord controlling troops or assassin taking out single targets in well-defended forts..mmm, wish I had the infinite time to make it happen :)