Help: Which to Buy?
by Mel. D. MacKenzie · in General Discussion · 06/24/2008 (7:37 pm) · 5 replies
I have to say I am absolutely stuck as to which product I want to buy. I am pretty sure that the two that fit my needs most are the Torque Game Builder or the Torque X Engine. I think they can both technically get me to the ends I want but I'm not sure which one will be able to suit my more immediate needs. Maybe you guys can help me.
First let me say (and I know I'll lose a big chunk of readers after I say this) that my goal is to create a unique 2D MMO. Yes I am aware of the size and difficulty of such a project and yes I am aware of the potential money and time costs. I have been doing research in the MMO market for 10 years now so please keep the lectures to a minimum.
Back to my problem - My first 'problem' is that I want to spend as little money as possible on my first purchase. As in if I can buy 1 product that suits my temporary needs then that is what I want. With TGB I will eventually probably need to upgrade to Pro for obvious reasons, and with TX I will probably need to buy the Builder for an extra $100.
My concern with TGB is that - since the network system is event based, it will cause lag for the user on the finished product.
Now technically, it would be best if I could just make the game and worry about server issues/account stability later (and I'll be honest I know very little about both of those - but I imagine with an almost finished product it might be easier to get help with that anyway.) So I would need a system that allows me the flexibility to create unique things such as basic character customization while not forcing me to do all the work myself. (As in if I'm going to have to do it all myself I might as well make my own engine right?)
So I want the ease and flexibility of having a 'builder' but still have the option of changing core code to allow me to at least have some unique flare in my game. Being that there is no 2D MMO engine available (from Garage Games) I am aware that I will have to do a great deal of coding myself. (Which I am extremely slow at - but more than capable.)
I have been working with several free engines and I have to admit ... you get what you pay for with them. I've pretty much given up on all of them and I am willing to fork over some dough... but either as little as possible or in lump sums as I need to.
Any help with my odd and confusing predicament will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Mel.
First let me say (and I know I'll lose a big chunk of readers after I say this) that my goal is to create a unique 2D MMO. Yes I am aware of the size and difficulty of such a project and yes I am aware of the potential money and time costs. I have been doing research in the MMO market for 10 years now so please keep the lectures to a minimum.
Back to my problem - My first 'problem' is that I want to spend as little money as possible on my first purchase. As in if I can buy 1 product that suits my temporary needs then that is what I want. With TGB I will eventually probably need to upgrade to Pro for obvious reasons, and with TX I will probably need to buy the Builder for an extra $100.
My concern with TGB is that - since the network system is event based, it will cause lag for the user on the finished product.
Now technically, it would be best if I could just make the game and worry about server issues/account stability later (and I'll be honest I know very little about both of those - but I imagine with an almost finished product it might be easier to get help with that anyway.) So I would need a system that allows me the flexibility to create unique things such as basic character customization while not forcing me to do all the work myself. (As in if I'm going to have to do it all myself I might as well make my own engine right?)
So I want the ease and flexibility of having a 'builder' but still have the option of changing core code to allow me to at least have some unique flare in my game. Being that there is no 2D MMO engine available (from Garage Games) I am aware that I will have to do a great deal of coding myself. (Which I am extremely slow at - but more than capable.)
I have been working with several free engines and I have to admit ... you get what you pay for with them. I've pretty much given up on all of them and I am willing to fork over some dough... but either as little as possible or in lump sums as I need to.
Any help with my odd and confusing predicament will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Mel.
#2
That being said (writing this in notepad = weak), I couldn't agree more with Rene. You should seriously consider taking time out at the beginning of the project to do some networking research. The reasoning being, while yes you can mock up the game and get fairly far into development before you really need a solid network engine from a functionallity standpoint, you could very well code yourself into a corner should you need to rework intire chunks of the project to accomidate a late-implemented solid network subsystem.
There's a really nice article in one of the first two Game Programming Gems that covers a network messaging queue methodoligy that might lead down a solid path to a solution.
Now, networking aside, the likely two deciding factors between TX and TGB (again, I don't know TX) would be 3D and Behaviors. Even though you are making a 2D game, you may find some use in the higher 3D support that TX offers(or will offer). On the otherhand, TGB's behavior system is quite powerful and may come in quite handy in the complexity of a MMO. I'm not sure if behaviors are on TX's roadmap, but they are in TGB today.
06/25/2008 (5:06 am)
I had a nice post... two actually, but they were eaten... I'm a sad panda. =/That being said (writing this in notepad = weak), I couldn't agree more with Rene. You should seriously consider taking time out at the beginning of the project to do some networking research. The reasoning being, while yes you can mock up the game and get fairly far into development before you really need a solid network engine from a functionallity standpoint, you could very well code yourself into a corner should you need to rework intire chunks of the project to accomidate a late-implemented solid network subsystem.
There's a really nice article in one of the first two Game Programming Gems that covers a network messaging queue methodoligy that might lead down a solid path to a solution.
Now, networking aside, the likely two deciding factors between TX and TGB (again, I don't know TX) would be 3D and Behaviors. Even though you are making a 2D game, you may find some use in the higher 3D support that TX offers(or will offer). On the otherhand, TGB's behavior system is quite powerful and may come in quite handy in the complexity of a MMO. I'm not sure if behaviors are on TX's roadmap, but they are in TGB today.
#3
But yeah, making an MMO is going to be hard enough as it is as one person... the more the engine/builder has the better =/. There seems to be tons of resources for making 3D MMOs but almost none for (a unique)2D MMO.
My ultimate goal is to make a 3D MMO (And after 10 years of researching the industry I'm more than confident that the idea I have will be a smash hit) but there is no chance in hell I'll be able to do that on my own - so I need to prove I have the creative ability and basic know-how to make something like it on a smaller scale. I've already made some silly 2D games for practice and it was a bunch of fun but I think I'm ready to move up. Honestly I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed right now... and frustrated that the other engines didn't work out, so the last thing I'd want to do is fork over a wad of cash and find out that what I payed for doesn't fit my needs either, yah know?
So if anyone knows how both of them works and wants to throw a bunch of technical gibberish at me as to why they will or wont work I'm ready to listen =P Thank you for the replies so far though. You've helped me a lot already =D
06/25/2008 (12:19 pm)
Ok, I suppose that makes sense. I was working with MySQL a bit on another engine I was working with so I have a bit of a start on it (although I think I screwed up some serious things *sigh*). Any links to Network tutorials or info would be greatly appreciated as well. If not I'm sure I will eventually find them myself no doubt =PBut yeah, making an MMO is going to be hard enough as it is as one person... the more the engine/builder has the better =/. There seems to be tons of resources for making 3D MMOs but almost none for (a unique)2D MMO.
My ultimate goal is to make a 3D MMO (And after 10 years of researching the industry I'm more than confident that the idea I have will be a smash hit) but there is no chance in hell I'll be able to do that on my own - so I need to prove I have the creative ability and basic know-how to make something like it on a smaller scale. I've already made some silly 2D games for practice and it was a bunch of fun but I think I'm ready to move up. Honestly I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed right now... and frustrated that the other engines didn't work out, so the last thing I'd want to do is fork over a wad of cash and find out that what I payed for doesn't fit my needs either, yah know?
So if anyone knows how both of them works and wants to throw a bunch of technical gibberish at me as to why they will or wont work I'm ready to listen =P Thank you for the replies so far though. You've helped me a lot already =D
#4
But I'd like to offer you an opinion to start with Torque Game Builder Pro, it's the version with source code.
It has the same network as TGE ( for 3d games) but as a lite version.
The beauty of TGB engine is the ease you can produce products, is easy to network, and is best suited for anyone that wants to "start" with Torque. I'd even go as far as to say that even if you have a Masters Degree in Computer science, you'd still want to start with TGB to ease into it, get a feel for what Torque is all aout, getting your feet wet before diving In. Unless your very confident your never going to get frustrated.. ever.. with learning something new.
Once you have your 2D ready.. you can port to TGE for 3D gaming or to TGEA for 3D gaming with tons of eye-candy.
Either choice you make.. the community here is brimming with eagerness and know-how to assist you where you might get snagged-up.
Sorry.. no Tech lingo.. I swore off that years ago.
06/25/2008 (3:20 pm)
I don't hve any tech gibberish to offer you in regard to networking.. I quit that long ago back in '92 when I walked away from the best job of my life and also the only job that nearly made me insane...But I'd like to offer you an opinion to start with Torque Game Builder Pro, it's the version with source code.
It has the same network as TGE ( for 3d games) but as a lite version.
The beauty of TGB engine is the ease you can produce products, is easy to network, and is best suited for anyone that wants to "start" with Torque. I'd even go as far as to say that even if you have a Masters Degree in Computer science, you'd still want to start with TGB to ease into it, get a feel for what Torque is all aout, getting your feet wet before diving In. Unless your very confident your never going to get frustrated.. ever.. with learning something new.
Once you have your 2D ready.. you can port to TGE for 3D gaming or to TGEA for 3D gaming with tons of eye-candy.
Either choice you make.. the community here is brimming with eagerness and know-how to assist you where you might get snagged-up.
Sorry.. no Tech lingo.. I swore off that years ago.
#5
I'd like to finish this 2D project as quickly as possible being it's a one person project and my real dream lies with my 3D project (The 2D game is based on my 3D project).... and a few other game ideas I have.
I had a team a few years back (working for free but with an agreement that they would get a cut of the profits and their name on the game) for my 3D project but two of the programmers refused to sign the NDA to be able to see the booklet I have that explains my idea and business structure so it kinda went downhill from there. Lesson learned =)
Anyway, I'll have to wait maybe a month to be able to validate spending that sort of money so until then any other advice/links/tutorials/tips at all is welcomed and pleaded for. And of course if anyone is magically willing to throw some code or art or whatever at me for game credits I'm open to that as well =D Anything to save time. (And yes I am fully aware that a lot of this sort of thing is already available at different sites, and believe me I've been through them constantly =P)
Maybe while I'm waiting I'll throw together some more silly 2D games. My son seems to be enjoying them.
Thanks again SO much!
Mel
06/25/2008 (4:40 pm)
I guess that would make sense. It's a bit more than I would have liked to spend right away but if it's that user friendly it might be worth it. And being able to then move right into a 3D project might work to my advantage in the future.I'd like to finish this 2D project as quickly as possible being it's a one person project and my real dream lies with my 3D project (The 2D game is based on my 3D project).... and a few other game ideas I have.
I had a team a few years back (working for free but with an agreement that they would get a cut of the profits and their name on the game) for my 3D project but two of the programmers refused to sign the NDA to be able to see the booklet I have that explains my idea and business structure so it kinda went downhill from there. Lesson learned =)
Anyway, I'll have to wait maybe a month to be able to validate spending that sort of money so until then any other advice/links/tutorials/tips at all is welcomed and pleaded for. And of course if anyone is magically willing to throw some code or art or whatever at me for game credits I'm open to that as well =D Anything to save time. (And yes I am fully aware that a lot of this sort of thing is already available at different sites, and believe me I've been through them constantly =P)
Maybe while I'm waiting I'll throw together some more silly 2D games. My son seems to be enjoying them.
Thanks again SO much!
Mel
Associate Rene Damm
What I can say, though, is that you absolutely would want to work with networking right from the start. This isn't something you can add on later--a lesson many developers had to pay dearly for. Especially if it's an MMO, it's the foundation you builld on.
Don't know if TGB's out-of-the-box networking will scale up to the task, but I figure that adding TNL into the mix or simply refitting Torque networking should be quite practical.