Dying, and reprecussions.
by Aaron Weingartner · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 06/17/2008 (12:03 am) · 12 replies
Well, just a thought really.
It seems traditional that unless games are about the afterlife, they aren't going to show it to you when you die because they are likely more concerned with making the living world better and more complex.
I wonder though, given that there are multiple games out where when you die you come back as a ghost either at your corpse or at a shrine and alternately either have to reach a shrine/respawn or reach your body, why not make it so you can play as a ghost?
Obviously you would have a helluva lot of work to account for this, but that doesn't mean the overall game would suffer if you made your world a little smaller but more detailed.
Example. You are an adventurer and die. Your soul becomes detached from your body. What happens? Not much really, your character becomes wispy and faint, the physical world around you fades and washes out a bit while other things either become visible or more tangible, and other dead/ethereal things become more solid to you.
You want to go back to your body? Fine. If it's not banged up too badly or hasn't faded away, just hop back in after a timer winds down. If it has been destroyed then your wander off to your local church/shrine to resurrect.
But that's not all you can do. You have a world all ready there, why not tweak it a bit? In other words, you take the "physical world" and place additional invisible content that can be accessed when you die. You can make the place your gaming in look almost entirely new and alien and add a whole another level of content without trying to introduce a new area.
What more, dying isn't something people just get annoyed at anymore. Yes in an online game your equipment may get damaged, but you are given the opportunity to do so much more as well. People might actually think it's fun or worthwhile to kill their character to travel and collect things on a mirror plane of existence.
It seems traditional that unless games are about the afterlife, they aren't going to show it to you when you die because they are likely more concerned with making the living world better and more complex.
I wonder though, given that there are multiple games out where when you die you come back as a ghost either at your corpse or at a shrine and alternately either have to reach a shrine/respawn or reach your body, why not make it so you can play as a ghost?
Obviously you would have a helluva lot of work to account for this, but that doesn't mean the overall game would suffer if you made your world a little smaller but more detailed.
Example. You are an adventurer and die. Your soul becomes detached from your body. What happens? Not much really, your character becomes wispy and faint, the physical world around you fades and washes out a bit while other things either become visible or more tangible, and other dead/ethereal things become more solid to you.
You want to go back to your body? Fine. If it's not banged up too badly or hasn't faded away, just hop back in after a timer winds down. If it has been destroyed then your wander off to your local church/shrine to resurrect.
But that's not all you can do. You have a world all ready there, why not tweak it a bit? In other words, you take the "physical world" and place additional invisible content that can be accessed when you die. You can make the place your gaming in look almost entirely new and alien and add a whole another level of content without trying to introduce a new area.
What more, dying isn't something people just get annoyed at anymore. Yes in an online game your equipment may get damaged, but you are given the opportunity to do so much more as well. People might actually think it's fun or worthwhile to kill their character to travel and collect things on a mirror plane of existence.
About the author
#2
Some example games are: Afterlife, Prey, and any MMO since UO. Also, Legend of the Green Dragon (LotRD clone) has an entire dead play element.
06/17/2008 (3:19 am)
Just remember why you are doing it. If you are dying just so you can die and get to the other content, sounds a bit silly. Likewise, it's silly to have a ghost element in a game just because everyone else does too. Where some games use death as a punishment, others may use it as play elements. Just make sure it has purpose, and does it well.Some example games are: Afterlife, Prey, and any MMO since UO. Also, Legend of the Green Dragon (LotRD clone) has an entire dead play element.
#3
So instead of recycling tedious methods of just taking something away from the player for dying, which may not be the player's fult in the first place if it's pvp, let them do something else for a change of pace.
Basically my idea would be limited in it's scope. Like cities for example, there may be a City of the Dead or small townish things consisting of ghosts and ethereal creatures that might overlap with graveyards, ruins, or major towns, but they would be few and far between. Most creatures you see you would still encounter if you were alive, they would just be flipped in terms of appearance and possibly stats for you. As well you could basically re-explore the area as pretty much new territory.
In the long run you might have a few quests that overlap into death, but my intentions was just to turn the whole experience into a reprieve or just something out of the ordinary rather than either a back a dn forth jog to be alive again or a loading screen.
06/17/2008 (6:39 am)
I was thinking of this mostly for MMOs simply because death as a punishment in that setting either doesn't tend to work or people get overly annoyed at.So instead of recycling tedious methods of just taking something away from the player for dying, which may not be the player's fult in the first place if it's pvp, let them do something else for a change of pace.
Basically my idea would be limited in it's scope. Like cities for example, there may be a City of the Dead or small townish things consisting of ghosts and ethereal creatures that might overlap with graveyards, ruins, or major towns, but they would be few and far between. Most creatures you see you would still encounter if you were alive, they would just be flipped in terms of appearance and possibly stats for you. As well you could basically re-explore the area as pretty much new territory.
In the long run you might have a few quests that overlap into death, but my intentions was just to turn the whole experience into a reprieve or just something out of the ordinary rather than either a back a dn forth jog to be alive again or a loading screen.
#4
I agree with you that games are meant to be fun; Penalizing people too much can become no fun quickly. If your "death" game is more fun then the life game, then just make a ghost game. Or visa versa. If you want to make a sandbox game where you place random stuff around make secondLife. The idea of people getting annoyed when dying makes sense.. but in games where people get too annoyed, it's probably because the game was designed poorly. It sounds like what you are proposing is two games mashed into one.
06/18/2008 (11:51 pm)
Hahah, yeah that game shadowman.. funny game. Really sucked if I remember. could have been like the worlds worst level design since doom?!? http://ign64.ign.com/dor/objects/1945/shadow-man/images/shadmanwohoo7.htmlI agree with you that games are meant to be fun; Penalizing people too much can become no fun quickly. If your "death" game is more fun then the life game, then just make a ghost game. Or visa versa. If you want to make a sandbox game where you place random stuff around make secondLife. The idea of people getting annoyed when dying makes sense.. but in games where people get too annoyed, it's probably because the game was designed poorly. It sounds like what you are proposing is two games mashed into one.
#5
06/21/2008 (7:55 pm)
Eeh, kinda, I was trying to pass of the afterlife as either a less complex version of the primary world, or more of a place for minigames. Not trying to split the focus on it too much, just flesh out the aspect of death and dying a bit more than what's normally done. 
#6
In PvP, the idea would be to make knocking someone out more lucrative than killing them outright. Perhaps through the law/order system in your game for instance, it would be easier to knock someone out and rob them than to get away with murder.
I haven't really seen any games that do this.
06/21/2008 (10:36 pm)
Personally, I think instead of having some elaborate death mechanic for MMOs, a better route is to allow unconsciousness to almost replace death as the common failure point. Especially in PvE this can work, and with some forethought, PvP. The idea is essentially that instead of every monster or enemy killing you outright, requiring some sort of contrived respawn or "venture through death" mechanic, you merely wake up later on, possibly injured, possibly robbed, and have to go on the mend or try and retrieve your stuff.In PvP, the idea would be to make knocking someone out more lucrative than killing them outright. Perhaps through the law/order system in your game for instance, it would be easier to knock someone out and rob them than to get away with murder.
I haven't really seen any games that do this.
#7
@ Aaron,
A player of MMO's are often attached to their character they built as if that character is an extension of them.
The death penalty in an online game is too common. It often means the player loses experience and or items to add insult to injury, and some games even make corpe retrieval a task of itself, thats the annoying part.
Death in many games is the way developers can slow a players progress, even in games with tons of content.
In games with ressurection methods it eases some of the pain of death but can also unbalance it if that ressurection comes from a healer class, since everyone will want to have a healer in the group rather then the rogue to prevent that death to start with.
Your concept of adding death as an alternative game play with benefits of being dead, could work in some cases where a quest is designed to kill the player no matter how tough they are, as part of the quest experience. But I think that letting a player somehow gain benefit to ease the frustration could be unweildly in terms of balance. You'll have people exploiting that avenue at every chance.
Perhaps if you make a player class that starts out as dead and must gain a physical form at some point in the game, would be a goal to acheive. But then you'd have to deal with that physical forms death again.
I agree with the idea of adding alternative play as if their are 2 realities, could be interesting and fun but to implement it in a way that couldn't be exploited would need more thought, especially in the fun factor area.
While many games already have a "dead" side of game play, I haven't seen or played any that were really worth even being in the game at all. Almost as if it's just another twist to a story where the end result is save the princess, just being told in the millionth different way.
Don't abandon this concept though. I think it can work with the right genius designing it.. you could just be the one to pull it off in a way that could be mimicked.
06/22/2008 (4:54 am)
@ Ross, I like that Idea Ross, run with that.@ Aaron,
A player of MMO's are often attached to their character they built as if that character is an extension of them.
The death penalty in an online game is too common. It often means the player loses experience and or items to add insult to injury, and some games even make corpe retrieval a task of itself, thats the annoying part.
Death in many games is the way developers can slow a players progress, even in games with tons of content.
In games with ressurection methods it eases some of the pain of death but can also unbalance it if that ressurection comes from a healer class, since everyone will want to have a healer in the group rather then the rogue to prevent that death to start with.
Your concept of adding death as an alternative game play with benefits of being dead, could work in some cases where a quest is designed to kill the player no matter how tough they are, as part of the quest experience. But I think that letting a player somehow gain benefit to ease the frustration could be unweildly in terms of balance. You'll have people exploiting that avenue at every chance.
Perhaps if you make a player class that starts out as dead and must gain a physical form at some point in the game, would be a goal to acheive. But then you'd have to deal with that physical forms death again.
I agree with the idea of adding alternative play as if their are 2 realities, could be interesting and fun but to implement it in a way that couldn't be exploited would need more thought, especially in the fun factor area.
While many games already have a "dead" side of game play, I haven't seen or played any that were really worth even being in the game at all. Almost as if it's just another twist to a story where the end result is save the princess, just being told in the millionth different way.
Don't abandon this concept though. I think it can work with the right genius designing it.. you could just be the one to pull it off in a way that could be mimicked.
#8
06/22/2008 (5:51 am)
You know whats funny though, folks are too attached to the characters, so attached that they have taken the game over screen out on alot of these games. Back before the age of mmos, death was something that was feared in a game. Thats why they have a ironman setting in alot of these games to let those players that want to forgo the lack of death penalty in exchange for a more rewarding experience. Now im not saying that games are not rewarding without a harsh death penalty. But playing knowing that you dont get to restart or reload without a consequence, is and can be a rewarding experience. Its like turning a game up to hard and playing the game smart rather then just playing it for the achievement points.
#9
In this way you could relegate major killing to the "untamed" areas of the world that have few people (since, if NPCs can disseminate news of a player's death, even camps of bandits or such would be able to spread the rumor that PlayerXYZ of the Stonemasons' Guild was murdered by PlayerABC of the Metalworkers' Guild).
Also with a proper set up you could make it so that most non-humanoid/non-sentient creatures wouldn't kill players outright, unless humanoids were their food source (which would be rare), but instead merely fight in self defense. I think another element to this is having a proper mechanic for NPC creatures to escape fights, and not just the "I'm going to run slowly away from you in a straight line, allowing you to easily kill me while I waltz off." I know that at least in D&D for instance, intelligent creatures such as dragons don't just sit around and let themselves be killed...they will escape a fight if it goes sour for them.
Even with such an unconsciousness system in place, I don't think you would want outright permadeath, but possibly some system that is much harsher than, say, WoW. Likely something that makes it so that companions or the like must resurrect your character before you can play it again, while possibly allowing a proxy character to be used by the player in question until his proper character is revived.
* - I say it's important for NPCs to disseminate this sort of news to others because in that way, players will easily be able to find out who killed whom and when, and be able to post bounties or go after the offending murderer.
06/22/2008 (9:58 am)
Quote:@ Ross, I like that Idea Ross, run with that.Well, mainly I think the way it could work is to make it so the players are members of close knit communities in the game world. Think clans or mercantile guilds or the like. This way, other players will know that unless they can manage a kill without being noticed by anyone (including NPCs, which is important*) there *will* be repercussions, either from the other player's guild, the authorities, or possibly bounty hunters.
In this way you could relegate major killing to the "untamed" areas of the world that have few people (since, if NPCs can disseminate news of a player's death, even camps of bandits or such would be able to spread the rumor that PlayerXYZ of the Stonemasons' Guild was murdered by PlayerABC of the Metalworkers' Guild).
Also with a proper set up you could make it so that most non-humanoid/non-sentient creatures wouldn't kill players outright, unless humanoids were their food source (which would be rare), but instead merely fight in self defense. I think another element to this is having a proper mechanic for NPC creatures to escape fights, and not just the "I'm going to run slowly away from you in a straight line, allowing you to easily kill me while I waltz off." I know that at least in D&D for instance, intelligent creatures such as dragons don't just sit around and let themselves be killed...they will escape a fight if it goes sour for them.
Even with such an unconsciousness system in place, I don't think you would want outright permadeath, but possibly some system that is much harsher than, say, WoW. Likely something that makes it so that companions or the like must resurrect your character before you can play it again, while possibly allowing a proxy character to be used by the player in question until his proper character is revived.
* - I say it's important for NPCs to disseminate this sort of news to others because in that way, players will easily be able to find out who killed whom and when, and be able to post bounties or go after the offending murderer.
#10
This is true.
My game (Darkwind: War on Wheels) has perma-death, and it definitely adds a dynamic missed in most MMOs. Yes, my players get upset when they lose characters, but it also means they play with knowledge of this risk and it makes the more dangerous parts of the game world truly dangerous... this allows subtle things such as trade to work where they otherwise wouldn't. Players have a gang of characters rather than just one, so losing a few of them isn't quite so serious as if they had only one.
06/22/2008 (2:30 pm)
Quote:Back before the age of mmos, death was something that was feared in a game
This is true.
My game (Darkwind: War on Wheels) has perma-death, and it definitely adds a dynamic missed in most MMOs. Yes, my players get upset when they lose characters, but it also means they play with knowledge of this risk and it makes the more dangerous parts of the game world truly dangerous... this allows subtle things such as trade to work where they otherwise wouldn't. Players have a gang of characters rather than just one, so losing a few of them isn't quite so serious as if they had only one.
#11
Seriously though. On Eve Online dying is a major set back. You lose your ship (and the isk you invested into it), your cargo, and if your opponent is in a particularly bad mood even your pod (and precious skills if you were dumb enough not to keep a current clone). Its a perfect example of a true death penalty.
Edit: More in-depth. For example in WoW or some other MMOs world PvP ends up being what ever side gets tired of running back to their corpse first - as both sides can keep at it, forever. In Eve when you die it may take you a while to get back up in running and you may be located a long way away from the action. When you kill a player in Eve they won't be back to harass you anytime soon.
06/22/2008 (3:28 pm)
Take a look at Eve Online 'nuff said.Seriously though. On Eve Online dying is a major set back. You lose your ship (and the isk you invested into it), your cargo, and if your opponent is in a particularly bad mood even your pod (and precious skills if you were dumb enough not to keep a current clone). Its a perfect example of a true death penalty.
Edit: More in-depth. For example in WoW or some other MMOs world PvP ends up being what ever side gets tired of running back to their corpse first - as both sides can keep at it, forever. In Eve when you die it may take you a while to get back up in running and you may be located a long way away from the action. When you kill a player in Eve they won't be back to harass you anytime soon.
#12
Eve is a great example of what hardcore might be considered. I do think it's a well built game and well implemented, but I personally find no desire to play it. Many others seem to share this sentiment as they either think the losses are too great and they don't want to lose all their work, or the game itself is too unapproachable because of how ingrained the community and game play is that they feel it's impossible to get into the heart of the game at this point.
I that consideration, to make a generally marketable game, it's safe to assume that you would have to err on the side of caution and not outright take things away from players, because many will view that as a punishment and not simply a cause/effect and flow in the game.
In proposing the afterlife thing, I'm aware that it has a limited scope in terms of viable settings, but it can also be a decent balance between harsher punishment and no punishment while still offering an opportunity for alternate game play features or events.
06/29/2008 (4:32 pm)
The difficulty issue though is also in consideration to who you're catering to. I honestly don't believe the modern majority of gamers don't have as hardcore of an attitude or approach to the games as they even assume of themselves at times. Like, I will never consider a WoW pvper or raider to be a hardcore gamer, because if you take any of their rewards away from them, they will lose interest and attachment rapidly.Eve is a great example of what hardcore might be considered. I do think it's a well built game and well implemented, but I personally find no desire to play it. Many others seem to share this sentiment as they either think the losses are too great and they don't want to lose all their work, or the game itself is too unapproachable because of how ingrained the community and game play is that they feel it's impossible to get into the heart of the game at this point.
I that consideration, to make a generally marketable game, it's safe to assume that you would have to err on the side of caution and not outright take things away from players, because many will view that as a punishment and not simply a cause/effect and flow in the game.
In proposing the afterlife thing, I'm aware that it has a limited scope in terms of viable settings, but it can also be a decent balance between harsher punishment and no punishment while still offering an opportunity for alternate game play features or events.
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