Torque strengths/weeknesses
by XzirAubrey · in Torque Game Engine · 03/26/2008 (11:50 am) · 20 replies
I have been trying to develop my 3D game for many years. Trying to find an engine to relieve alot of the 3D development issues. Haven't found one that fits my needs yet. Was wondering if Torque would. I have every intention of purchasing the Indie version of the advanced engine, with source, to go thru it and see if it will suit my needs. I purchased the first book a couple of weeks ago, finished the projects in the book a few days ago. I have been interested in the demo engine thus far as a quick game development for quick little fps games while we are in Iraq. As I said I will probably purchase the Indie with source, and develop some little LAN games for us.
However, for my major game, it seems the Torque Engine is mostly focused on FPS style games. Granted it has vehicles a so forth, but in a FPS themed way. Which is great in its own right, and I intend to develop a few within that style.
I guess my question is for those who have gotten into the source code. Can the Torque Engine simulate space? My game is a space based game. I know you can omit the terrain from torque, but does that eliminate the ground gravity? And can torque be made to function in FULL 3D, not a height limited ground based cell? I read somewhere, may have been in the book, where Torque is not so good for MMOs. Is that upgradeable/codeable?
One more question, can torque be integrated into another source code, built within that source code, where tge is not the executable?
However, for my major game, it seems the Torque Engine is mostly focused on FPS style games. Granted it has vehicles a so forth, but in a FPS themed way. Which is great in its own right, and I intend to develop a few within that style.
I guess my question is for those who have gotten into the source code. Can the Torque Engine simulate space? My game is a space based game. I know you can omit the terrain from torque, but does that eliminate the ground gravity? And can torque be made to function in FULL 3D, not a height limited ground based cell? I read somewhere, may have been in the book, where Torque is not so good for MMOs. Is that upgradeable/codeable?
One more question, can torque be integrated into another source code, built within that source code, where tge is not the executable?
#2
Day Of War
Video of Day of War
03/26/2008 (12:59 pm)
Also, if you want to see a WIP space game under development using TGEA:Day Of War
Video of Day of War
#3
A shameless plug since you're asking about space games. I'm currently developing a Space game called Solar Battles using TGEA. Altough I could've gone for TGE too, I was after the Normal Mapping and shaders only, which TGEA adds to the mix. My reasoning being that space can be boring, so at least "prettify" what there is. There are also plenty of resources to help your mission further. So have a look at what I have accomplished thus far:
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=13704
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=13986
Those posts/blogs are old, but the latest screenshots can be found at a Solar Battles group I created on facebook until I get the Website going.
I'm a single person working on this with the help of the great community here. Anything is however possible.
Hope that clears up some questions :)
EDIT: Looks like I need Michael on my marketing team, quick reply :P
03/26/2008 (1:06 pm)
Hey there!Quote:
I guess my question is for those who have gotten into the source code. Can the Torque Engine simulate space? My game is a space based game. I know you can omit the terrain from torque, but does that eliminate the ground gravity? And can torque be made to function in FULL 3D, not a height limited ground based cell? I read somewhere, may have been in the book, where Torque is not so good for MMOs. Is that upgradeable/codeable?
A shameless plug since you're asking about space games. I'm currently developing a Space game called Solar Battles using TGEA. Altough I could've gone for TGE too, I was after the Normal Mapping and shaders only, which TGEA adds to the mix. My reasoning being that space can be boring, so at least "prettify" what there is. There are also plenty of resources to help your mission further. So have a look at what I have accomplished thus far:
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=13704
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=13986
Those posts/blogs are old, but the latest screenshots can be found at a Solar Battles group I created on facebook until I get the Website going.
I'm a single person working on this with the help of the great community here. Anything is however possible.
Quote:I would turn that statement around and say that other source code/libraries can be built/merged into Torque. Torque is a huge full fledged engine. The best would advice I have is to first try and use what is there already, then add to it what you REALLY need.
One more question, can torque be integrated into another source code, built within that source code, where tge is not the executable?
Hope that clears up some questions :)
EDIT: Looks like I need Michael on my marketing team, quick reply :P
#4
Another great example of what can be done with Torque technology that is in no way related to your standard FPS.
Source Code = "The Key to the Unlimited"
03/26/2008 (1:15 pm)
Ah HA! Solar Battles! That's the other link I was looking for! =)Another great example of what can be done with Torque technology that is in no way related to your standard FPS.
Source Code = "The Key to the Unlimited"
#5
Does TGEA have some of the same issues as TGE with moving out past a certain point in the mission the player begins to "jitter"? In TGE if the center of your mission area is 0,0,0 if you move out past 10,000 in any direction the camera starts to shake because of a rounding issue with the position variables.
@John
I started my game on TGE, but after a year of having very little to show for my effort I went on a search for another engine that was going to be capable of doing what I need.
My game is a combination Space and Land MMORPG and there were several things that TGE couldn't do without some HEAVY modification. I'm an ok C++ programmer, but digging deep into a lightly documented engine of this complexity is just not really within my talents.
03/30/2008 (4:57 pm)
@JamesDoes TGEA have some of the same issues as TGE with moving out past a certain point in the mission the player begins to "jitter"? In TGE if the center of your mission area is 0,0,0 if you move out past 10,000 in any direction the camera starts to shake because of a rounding issue with the position variables.
@John
I started my game on TGE, but after a year of having very little to show for my effort I went on a search for another engine that was going to be capable of doing what I need.
My game is a combination Space and Land MMORPG and there were several things that TGE couldn't do without some HEAVY modification. I'm an ok C++ programmer, but digging deep into a lightly documented engine of this complexity is just not really within my talents.
#6
If you try to make a seamless/infinite size world with a zoned based architecture, and don't have the necessary c++ experience to adapt, then yes, you will have problems as well.
However, if you spend some time learning why TGE, TGEA, and any other engine that uses 32 bit high precision coordinates for location has issues past certain ranges from the origin, then you would be well equipped to tackle the specific game issues you come up with.
No engine is going to be perfect for every game idea ever imagined. When you come up with a game idea that requires technical enhancements, you're going to need to learn the theory and implementation techniques to handle those requirements.
03/30/2008 (5:03 pm)
If you try to treat a space and land MMORPG with fps style world definitions, you will have a problem in any engine.If you try to make a seamless/infinite size world with a zoned based architecture, and don't have the necessary c++ experience to adapt, then yes, you will have problems as well.
However, if you spend some time learning why TGE, TGEA, and any other engine that uses 32 bit high precision coordinates for location has issues past certain ranges from the origin, then you would be well equipped to tackle the specific game issues you come up with.
No engine is going to be perfect for every game idea ever imagined. When you come up with a game idea that requires technical enhancements, you're going to need to learn the theory and implementation techniques to handle those requirements.
#7
03/30/2008 (7:42 pm)
Oh man I love this. Here is a GG employee responding to a thread, and instead of giving some help he just says go look it up somewhere else.
#8
What help exactly should I provide? Should I do the research for him on the internet for representing large scale worlds within the constraints of floating point precision issues? Design and implement a paged sector system utilizing a two part location key?
Game development isn't trivial. Other people, even GarageGames employees, can't solve all of the problems specific to your game. Anyone needing this type of implementation will have to do some research on the internet, read up on the problem, and adapt a solution that meets their needs--and that's what I said.
The quote here:
demonstrates that both the original poster, and the responder making this statement, don't actually understand the problem set they have aimed at...it is definitely a complex issue, but a game engine isn't going to solve it for you--it's an application level problem, and needs an application level solution.
To evolve that solution, the best technique is to understand the problem, research possible solutions, select one, and implement it.
Engine selection is a very important step in developing a game, but it's important to understand the aspects of your project that an engine is designed to assist, and the aspects of your project that are unrelated to the capabilities an engine provides. In this particular case, unless you can find an engine that not only handles all of the tasks that Torque does for you, but also provides a solution to floating point precision issues in 3D world representation (and their may very well be one out there, but I'm not aware of one), then I suggest it's not a good idea to select an engine based on an application level problem.
03/30/2008 (7:50 pm)
Quote:
Oh man I love this. Here is a GG employee responding to a thread, and instead of giving some help he just says go look it up somewhere else.
What help exactly should I provide? Should I do the research for him on the internet for representing large scale worlds within the constraints of floating point precision issues? Design and implement a paged sector system utilizing a two part location key?
Game development isn't trivial. Other people, even GarageGames employees, can't solve all of the problems specific to your game. Anyone needing this type of implementation will have to do some research on the internet, read up on the problem, and adapt a solution that meets their needs--and that's what I said.
The quote here:
Quote:
I started my game on TGE, but after a year of having very little to show for my effort I went on a search for another engine that was going to be capable of doing what I need.
demonstrates that both the original poster, and the responder making this statement, don't actually understand the problem set they have aimed at...it is definitely a complex issue, but a game engine isn't going to solve it for you--it's an application level problem, and needs an application level solution.
To evolve that solution, the best technique is to understand the problem, research possible solutions, select one, and implement it.
Engine selection is a very important step in developing a game, but it's important to understand the aspects of your project that an engine is designed to assist, and the aspects of your project that are unrelated to the capabilities an engine provides. In this particular case, unless you can find an engine that not only handles all of the tasks that Torque does for you, but also provides a solution to floating point precision issues in 3D world representation (and their may very well be one out there, but I'm not aware of one), then I suggest it's not a good idea to select an engine based on an application level problem.
#9
Stephen is being realistic, not trying to fill someones head with hopes and dreams, like your head seems to have been filled with. You seem so dissatistifed with your purchases. Why don't you ask for a refund if you're so dissatisfied? Personally your comments are very negative and off base, and a great distraction to the real discussions.
03/30/2008 (9:16 pm)
I've been here at garagegames for like nearly 6 years, and this Jeramy79 is probably the most bitter and diluted person to ever grace the forums.Stephen is being realistic, not trying to fill someones head with hopes and dreams, like your head seems to have been filled with. You seem so dissatistifed with your purchases. Why don't you ask for a refund if you're so dissatisfied? Personally your comments are very negative and off base, and a great distraction to the real discussions.
#10
Mr. Zepp could have easily pointed him to many articles about coordinate issues and how other gamedevs overcame them. Here is one for example:
http://www.drizzle.com/~scottb/gdc/continuous-world.htm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe the Terrain Implementation section of this article might point Mr. Summers in the right direction to what he wants. It doesn't tell him how to do it, but gives him a starting point for ideas on how to implement it.
Am I completely off here? Did I not understand his question correctly?
03/30/2008 (9:42 pm)
I guess this is my problem. I'm in the US Military and when someone asks a question or makes a comment about my products I don't just turn them away and tell them to go find the answer somewhere. Even if I can't give them the answer or do all the research for them I definitely make it a point to help them out in anyway I can. If I do have to look up some information and point them in the right direction then that's what I do. My job is very important and saves lives everyday which I know can't be compared with game development, but if my fellow sailors/marines/pilots/etc... shared the same attitude and customer service ethics as Mr. Zepp then peoples lives would be the cost of that.Mr. Zepp could have easily pointed him to many articles about coordinate issues and how other gamedevs overcame them. Here is one for example:
http://www.drizzle.com/~scottb/gdc/continuous-world.htm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe the Terrain Implementation section of this article might point Mr. Summers in the right direction to what he wants. It doesn't tell him how to do it, but gives him a starting point for ideas on how to implement it.
Am I completely off here? Did I not understand his question correctly?
#11
With that said, I'll try to put it in a perspective that I think might make more sense:
As an instructor pilot, it was my responsibility to teach pilot training students how to be successful as pilots, which included not only giving them the procedures and techniques for safe flight, but also, as my most important instructional duty when it came down to it, was to instill in each student the ability to make good judgment decisions based on available information--and to be able to seek out the information they needed to make those decisions when it wasn't available to them immediately.
There is no one way to solve the problem the initial poster, or the secondary poster commented on, and all I individually would have been able to do would be to poke around with some search topics on the internet, seeking solutions that may have been appropriate for them--but I wouldn't know, because they aren't my projects. I could make a suggestion that turns out to be completely incorrect for the problem set the questioner asked (since it is such a complex task), but since it came from a GG employee, they wouldn't have spent the time validating their problem set, and researching the solution themselves--ultimately resulting in a failed project (especially if the original solution I searched for was not appropriate, but in some cases even when it was close).
Instead, what I did was to point out the fact that an engine is not designed to solve this particular need--instead of handing them a solution, I gave them some important information so that they could make good judgments regarding engine selection, and/or avoid what could ultimately be a bad decision (changing to an different engine, effectively wasting any progress they may already have had).
I guess the most basic analogy is "give a man a fish, feed him for a day...teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime". While it may not have succeeded, I was trying to teach them how to properly assess engines while trying to find solutions for his problems, instead of handing them a solution that most probably wouldn't be close to what they really need.
03/30/2008 (9:57 pm)
Jeramy, for what it's worth (not much to be honest, in this particular forum), I was an Air Force pilot for 9 years, a USAFA graduate (1989), and a member of USSOCOM (AFSOC) for 6 years.With that said, I'll try to put it in a perspective that I think might make more sense:
As an instructor pilot, it was my responsibility to teach pilot training students how to be successful as pilots, which included not only giving them the procedures and techniques for safe flight, but also, as my most important instructional duty when it came down to it, was to instill in each student the ability to make good judgment decisions based on available information--and to be able to seek out the information they needed to make those decisions when it wasn't available to them immediately.
There is no one way to solve the problem the initial poster, or the secondary poster commented on, and all I individually would have been able to do would be to poke around with some search topics on the internet, seeking solutions that may have been appropriate for them--but I wouldn't know, because they aren't my projects. I could make a suggestion that turns out to be completely incorrect for the problem set the questioner asked (since it is such a complex task), but since it came from a GG employee, they wouldn't have spent the time validating their problem set, and researching the solution themselves--ultimately resulting in a failed project (especially if the original solution I searched for was not appropriate, but in some cases even when it was close).
Instead, what I did was to point out the fact that an engine is not designed to solve this particular need--instead of handing them a solution, I gave them some important information so that they could make good judgments regarding engine selection, and/or avoid what could ultimately be a bad decision (changing to an different engine, effectively wasting any progress they may already have had).
I guess the most basic analogy is "give a man a fish, feed him for a day...teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime". While it may not have succeeded, I was trying to teach them how to properly assess engines while trying to find solutions for his problems, instead of handing them a solution that most probably wouldn't be close to what they really need.
#12
Kevin, what Stephen was trying to say in 10 paragraphs or less is, yes. TGEA still has the precision issue as it uses the same code as in TGE. Some people came across the exact same issue while trying to use rather large Atlas terrains.
03/30/2008 (11:17 pm)
Quote:Does TGEA have some of the same issues as TGE with moving out past a certain point in the mission the player begins to "jitter"? In TGE if the center of your mission area is 0,0,0 if you move out past 10,000 in any direction the camera starts to shake because of a rounding issue with the position variables.
Kevin, what Stephen was trying to say in 10 paragraphs or less is, yes. TGEA still has the precision issue as it uses the same code as in TGE. Some people came across the exact same issue while trying to use rather large Atlas terrains.
#13
Like Jacobin said... the problem is still there.
My solution to this problem is to scale down by 10, then your 10k limit becomes 100,000 which I believe is more than enough. This sorts out a high speed collision problem too.
I dont use such large worlds for Solar Battles, since it's a Multiplayer game, and flying away isnt going to help a player's score.
03/31/2008 (2:41 am)
Quote:
Does TGEA have some of the same issues as TGE with moving out past a certain point in the mission the player begins to "jitter"? In TGE if the center of your mission area is 0,0,0 if you move out past 10,000 in any direction the camera starts to shake because of a rounding issue with the position variables.
Like Jacobin said... the problem is still there.
My solution to this problem is to scale down by 10, then your 10k limit becomes 100,000 which I believe is more than enough. This sorts out a high speed collision problem too.
I dont use such large worlds for Solar Battles, since it's a Multiplayer game, and flying away isnt going to help a player's score.
#14
Weaknesses: Ignorant Users
I agree fully with Ramen-sama.
03/31/2008 (7:27 am)
Strengths: EngineWeaknesses: Ignorant Users
I agree fully with Ramen-sama.
#15
Really though, Stephen and others are right...you can expect *any* engine to have the answers to your specific problems, or you'll never choose an engine and/or will be disappointed by any one you do buy. IMO Torque is ahead of the game compared to other engines in that area, simply because of how many useful resources have been provided by the community.
My strategy when I bought TSE during milestone 3 or whatnot, was just to take as many resources as I could find that when combined, would roughly equal out my desired gameplay, then to break/rewrite it to my specs. Unfortunately, with work and a baby on the way in 4 months, I don't have as much time as I used to to spend on it.
03/31/2008 (10:39 am)
Yeah, the precision issues aren't "Torque's problem" by any means. I highly doubt many or any engines solve this problem in a way that would work for a large streaming world (might be some that do it based on "zones" and the like). There are many resources for overcoming this problem, though (Game Programming Gems 3 I think has an article).Really though, Stephen and others are right...you can expect *any* engine to have the answers to your specific problems, or you'll never choose an engine and/or will be disappointed by any one you do buy. IMO Torque is ahead of the game compared to other engines in that area, simply because of how many useful resources have been provided by the community.
My strategy when I bought TSE during milestone 3 or whatnot, was just to take as many resources as I could find that when combined, would roughly equal out my desired gameplay, then to break/rewrite it to my specs. Unfortunately, with work and a baby on the way in 4 months, I don't have as much time as I used to to spend on it.
#16
The latter was where I was headed before I gave up on Torque for this particular project.
Keep in mind I've never said I wouldn't come back to Torque. It just wasn't going to work for this particular project.
There were to many other things that were just going to take to long, and take to many modifications to the engine. It was never an engine that was meant to do a project like this.
..and before the question comes up, the things that weren't going to work for my project are,
- Day/Night cycles - yes I've seen the resources. Not good enough for what I'm after
- Shadowing, which is tied to the Day / Night cycles problem. Dynamic shadowing just isn't working right
- Collision - Many have resorted to writing their own collision system
There are several more, but these are the major ones.
I understand the endeavour that I've taken on, and the amount of work that needs to be done. I'm no novice. I've been programming for 20+ years. TGE and TGEA were simply going to create more work that I really don't have the time or expertise to dive into for this particular project, and so I've moved on to another engine that was able to do what I wanted out of the box, and the cost was about the same.
I'm prototyping the project in DarkBASIC Pro, and then writing the final project in DarkGDK. (or DarkGDK.Net if it's available in time)
Those things that I wanted to do with Torque I was able to do within a few hours of getting my hands on DBPro.
- Vast open space became readily available. (tested out to 1,000,000 units. Stopped there because I figured that was plenty.)
- Day / Night cycle scene took 30 minutes to put together with decent looking shadows.
- PhysX integration with collision detection (by purchasing the DarkPhysics add-on)
- Infinitely expandable through custom DLLs. Many are freely available from the community
I could go on but I don't want this to seem like a plug for another engine. It's simply the one that I found that works for my current project.
I have few regrets about my purchase of Torque, and I look forward to seeing what Torque2 has to offer. I am certain that another project will present itself that will work well in TGE, and when it does then that's what I'll use.
03/31/2008 (11:16 am)
I actually do understand the full ramifications of the precision issue. Given what I'm trying to do I had two choices. Either completely replace all references to the position variables making them larger. (I think they were floats, and would have needed to be doubles) or do what James has done and scale down.The latter was where I was headed before I gave up on Torque for this particular project.
Keep in mind I've never said I wouldn't come back to Torque. It just wasn't going to work for this particular project.
There were to many other things that were just going to take to long, and take to many modifications to the engine. It was never an engine that was meant to do a project like this.
..and before the question comes up, the things that weren't going to work for my project are,
- Day/Night cycles - yes I've seen the resources. Not good enough for what I'm after
- Shadowing, which is tied to the Day / Night cycles problem. Dynamic shadowing just isn't working right
- Collision - Many have resorted to writing their own collision system
There are several more, but these are the major ones.
I understand the endeavour that I've taken on, and the amount of work that needs to be done. I'm no novice. I've been programming for 20+ years. TGE and TGEA were simply going to create more work that I really don't have the time or expertise to dive into for this particular project, and so I've moved on to another engine that was able to do what I wanted out of the box, and the cost was about the same.
I'm prototyping the project in DarkBASIC Pro, and then writing the final project in DarkGDK. (or DarkGDK.Net if it's available in time)
Those things that I wanted to do with Torque I was able to do within a few hours of getting my hands on DBPro.
- Vast open space became readily available. (tested out to 1,000,000 units. Stopped there because I figured that was plenty.)
- Day / Night cycle scene took 30 minutes to put together with decent looking shadows.
- PhysX integration with collision detection (by purchasing the DarkPhysics add-on)
- Infinitely expandable through custom DLLs. Many are freely available from the community
I could go on but I don't want this to seem like a plug for another engine. It's simply the one that I found that works for my current project.
I have few regrets about my purchase of Torque, and I look forward to seeing what Torque2 has to offer. I am certain that another project will present itself that will work well in TGE, and when it does then that's what I'll use.
#17
- Editor
- Terrain engine
- Multiplayer
- Portability
- Price
- Flexibility
- Source included
- Beginner-friendly (usually)
- Community (content packs, forums)
Weaknesses:
- Community (inflammatory comments, off-topic posts in really random places)
- Physics
- Particles
- Documentation
I use Torque for the same reason I use Blender. It's what I've always used, and I'm used to it. It has its quirks, but the benefits far outweigh the annoyances.
03/31/2008 (6:56 pm)
Strengths:- Editor
- Terrain engine
- Multiplayer
- Portability
- Price
- Flexibility
- Source included
- Beginner-friendly (usually)
- Community (content packs, forums)
Weaknesses:
- Community (inflammatory comments, off-topic posts in really random places)
- Physics
- Particles
- Documentation
I use Torque for the same reason I use Blender. It's what I've always used, and I'm used to it. It has its quirks, but the benefits far outweigh the annoyances.
#18
Over complicated setup for exporting vehicles and characters.
You can probably set it up to suit your own way of working but the whole default heirarchy dependency is over complicated.
Weak default physics.
Scripting is extensive but somewhat cumbersome, especially with things like camera control. Makes breaking out of torques mechanical look and feel in areas such as controls camera and physics.
Shadow's arent great even in TGEA.
Limited range of GUI widgets make most torque games look similar.
I'm sure there are a few other things, but it is a proven engine with several released games, and good portability if you have the funding to develop for consoles. Very solid multiplayer.
03/31/2008 (10:46 pm)
I'd say weaknesses were the art pipeline, not so bad with shaders but only one UV mapping channel. You have limited multitexturing and makes Torque a poor choice for poly soup scenery where you might want custom lightmaps, ambient occlusion maps in your shaders combined with tiled textures.Over complicated setup for exporting vehicles and characters.
You can probably set it up to suit your own way of working but the whole default heirarchy dependency is over complicated.
Weak default physics.
Scripting is extensive but somewhat cumbersome, especially with things like camera control. Makes breaking out of torques mechanical look and feel in areas such as controls camera and physics.
Shadow's arent great even in TGEA.
Limited range of GUI widgets make most torque games look similar.
I'm sure there are a few other things, but it is a proven engine with several released games, and good portability if you have the funding to develop for consoles. Very solid multiplayer.
#19
Keep us posted on your project. I'd like to see what you've accomplished.
04/04/2008 (9:04 am)
@Kevin SummersKeep us posted on your project. I'd like to see what you've accomplished.
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus
As far as MMOs are concerned, it is possible to code in the functionality for Torque. Have a look at the MMOWorkshop (FAQ). Anyone who wants to develop an MMO using Torque Tech will want to start there, or start from scratch.
TGE is a full SDK, so you will not be inserting it into another code base. Not sure why you would want to. That would be like stuffing a M4 into a Nerf Blaster: frustrating, pointless, doomed to fail, and someone will end up getting shot =)