My first rant of 2008
by Terry · in General Discussion · 02/03/2008 (3:02 pm) · 56 replies
As more of a casual Torque user I don't post here often, and can't offer much in the way of assistance to other users on the site. I know some would say that nullifies my right to complain about anything, but I don't feel that way.
[rant]
After not having much time over the past year to play with game dev, I stopped in the other day to find a new release of TGB (1.7.1) available. I've been wanting to get back into it, so I downloaded the update and installed it. Looks really good. While doing my standard searches for information, though, I came across the following blog from Brett Seyler in December.
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/83134/14040
It's about the latest EULA change. It concerns me seemingly more than most, from the limited response I saw. When I first purchased Torque back in '04 the licensing was much different, as when I later purchased a license for the EA of what is now TGEA, and then the T2D EA, and finally the commercial pro license for TGB.
I don't have a problem with noting on a game that Torque was used to create it, but I'm not a fan of being told what I can and can't do with something I purchase. Therefore the commercial pro license of TGB. Now we're at the place where I:
- Have to display a logo/splash screen (please read on before you flame me for that)
- Can't create anything that someone might learn something from
- Can't create "virtual worlds" (what on a computer isn't virtual?)
- Can't create anything unless it's strictly "entertaining"
- Can't create anything for other than PC/Mac
- Have to apparently re-read the EULA for each update I download
Yes, I can use the older version of the software. But if I want updates or bug fixes to the software I bought under one EULA, I have to agree to the new EULA. Am I the only one here saying "Hmmmm..."? Guess I should also be checking updates to content packs, utilities, and add-ons for the same kind of EULA changes.
As stated above about the logo/slash thing, it's not so much that I have a problem with doing it, but I paid for a commercial pro license specifically to have the option. And yes, in the last 4 years I've seen all the "You should be proud of the engine and glad to show it" stuff. Again, I'm not saying I wouldn't do it. Not the point. I've also heard and seen all the "What do you expect for a hundred bucks?" posts, but we're not talking $100 anymore, we're now into thousands all told.
There's an old story about the day the tax collector shows up and takes a dollar. No one complains. In fact, that was so easy the next day he takes two. Not only does no one complain, but some say it's only fair. Next day he takes four. Soon people complain, but who cares, he now has all their money.
What won't I be able to do with this somewhat expensive license on the next update, or the one after that, is my question. I'm not arguing the right of GG to do this, just the business ethics.
continued...
[rant]
After not having much time over the past year to play with game dev, I stopped in the other day to find a new release of TGB (1.7.1) available. I've been wanting to get back into it, so I downloaded the update and installed it. Looks really good. While doing my standard searches for information, though, I came across the following blog from Brett Seyler in December.
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/83134/14040
It's about the latest EULA change. It concerns me seemingly more than most, from the limited response I saw. When I first purchased Torque back in '04 the licensing was much different, as when I later purchased a license for the EA of what is now TGEA, and then the T2D EA, and finally the commercial pro license for TGB.
I don't have a problem with noting on a game that Torque was used to create it, but I'm not a fan of being told what I can and can't do with something I purchase. Therefore the commercial pro license of TGB. Now we're at the place where I:
- Have to display a logo/splash screen (please read on before you flame me for that)
- Can't create anything that someone might learn something from
- Can't create "virtual worlds" (what on a computer isn't virtual?)
- Can't create anything unless it's strictly "entertaining"
- Can't create anything for other than PC/Mac
- Have to apparently re-read the EULA for each update I download
Yes, I can use the older version of the software. But if I want updates or bug fixes to the software I bought under one EULA, I have to agree to the new EULA. Am I the only one here saying "Hmmmm..."? Guess I should also be checking updates to content packs, utilities, and add-ons for the same kind of EULA changes.
As stated above about the logo/slash thing, it's not so much that I have a problem with doing it, but I paid for a commercial pro license specifically to have the option. And yes, in the last 4 years I've seen all the "You should be proud of the engine and glad to show it" stuff. Again, I'm not saying I wouldn't do it. Not the point. I've also heard and seen all the "What do you expect for a hundred bucks?" posts, but we're not talking $100 anymore, we're now into thousands all told.
There's an old story about the day the tax collector shows up and takes a dollar. No one complains. In fact, that was so easy the next day he takes two. Not only does no one complain, but some say it's only fair. Next day he takes four. Soon people complain, but who cares, he now has all their money.
What won't I be able to do with this somewhat expensive license on the next update, or the one after that, is my question. I'm not arguing the right of GG to do this, just the business ethics.
continued...
#2
Gary (-;
02/03/2008 (3:24 pm)
On the plus side, the tree hugging open source hippy in me is happy because you're now allowed to distribute torquescript source for T2D [or at least, you were last time I looked].Gary (-;
#3
- Terry
02/03/2008 (3:39 pm)
Agreed, I do like that. Hope the above didn't sound like I'm down on everything, just a couple things...- Terry
#4
Just thought I would chime in a bit.
- Have to display a logo/splash screen (please read on before you flame me for that)
'tis true.
- Can't create anything that someone might learn something from
You can created educational games. Things like Oregon Trail, Math Blaster, and the edutainment hits before there was a term edutainment are things that could definitely be done.
- Can't create "virtual worlds" (what on a computer isn't virtual?)
If you'll look at the "virtual world" market as it is today, you'll understand that it comprises much more than games. Often it works in social simulations, and is usually part of the "serious gaming" industry, which often needs to negotiate various licensing terms beyond a simple "indie" or "commercial" license. Because they were negotiating each of these licenses anyway, it made sense to reify it in the licensing.
- Can't create anything unless it's strictly "entertaining"
Not necessarily "entertaining" but a "game". And that is a wide interpretation anyway, so if you have any doubts about whether it fits, contact licensing.
- Can't create anything for other than PC/Mac
You can port to Linux or other PC operating systems. You will have to get a different license for mobile devices or consoles, though. It has been this way for consoles for a long, long time.
- Have to apparently re-read the EULA for each update I download
Pretty much every company that I know of the has a EULA has a clause that allows them to update it at any time with or without notification. It is good practice to always read the EULA with each release (or BeyondCompare it with the old one).Whether they make use of that clause depends on the company and decisions that they make along the way. But it is usually there as a safety net, and lawyers love safety nets.
02/03/2008 (3:54 pm)
Well thought out and articulate post...er, rant. :)Just thought I would chime in a bit.
- Have to display a logo/splash screen (please read on before you flame me for that)
'tis true.
- Can't create anything that someone might learn something from
You can created educational games. Things like Oregon Trail, Math Blaster, and the edutainment hits before there was a term edutainment are things that could definitely be done.
- Can't create "virtual worlds" (what on a computer isn't virtual?)
If you'll look at the "virtual world" market as it is today, you'll understand that it comprises much more than games. Often it works in social simulations, and is usually part of the "serious gaming" industry, which often needs to negotiate various licensing terms beyond a simple "indie" or "commercial" license. Because they were negotiating each of these licenses anyway, it made sense to reify it in the licensing.
- Can't create anything unless it's strictly "entertaining"
Not necessarily "entertaining" but a "game". And that is a wide interpretation anyway, so if you have any doubts about whether it fits, contact licensing.
- Can't create anything for other than PC/Mac
You can port to Linux or other PC operating systems. You will have to get a different license for mobile devices or consoles, though. It has been this way for consoles for a long, long time.
- Have to apparently re-read the EULA for each update I download
Pretty much every company that I know of the has a EULA has a clause that allows them to update it at any time with or without notification. It is good practice to always read the EULA with each release (or BeyondCompare it with the old one).Whether they make use of that clause depends on the company and decisions that they make along the way. But it is usually there as a safety net, and lawyers love safety nets.
#5
Much nicer reply than I had thought I might get. Thanks. Definitely don't want to beat a dead horse (metaphor, of course), but just wanted to note a couple of things I'd seen in your post.
- Have to display a logo/splash screen (please read on before you flame me for that)
-- 'tis true.
Also have to put credits in the credit screen and/or about box.
- Can't create anything that someone might learn something from
-- You can created educational games. Things like Oregon Trail, Math Blaster, and the edutainment hits before there was a term edutainment are things that could definitely be done.
From Brett's plan:
"If you're wanting to profit from a simulation, serious game, virtual world, machinima, educational game or other game-not-for-entertainment application of Torque, you'll need to contact us at licensing@garagegames.com for licensing details."
Had to note the term "educational game" specifically included above. I noticed it particularly because it was sort of what I'd been designing. I've seen the games you mentioned, but simply going by the text we don't know what GG would approve and what they wouldn't. As I said, very open ended and undefined. Kind of leaves us hanging as to whether something we've worked hard on is okay or do we now have to negotiate a new deal with GG to market the product.
- Can't create "virtual worlds" (what on a computer isn't virtual?)
-- If you'll look at the "virtual world" market as it is today, you'll understand that it comprises much more than games. Often it works in social simulations, and is usually part of the "serious gaming" industry, which often needs to negotiate various licensing terms beyond a simple "indie" or "commercial" license. Because they were negotiating each of these licenses anyway, it made sense to reify it in the licensing.
Again here, we can hope for "virtual world" and "serious game" to mean one thing, but the statement above from the plan is pretty open ended about what kind of problems you could run into after you've finished what you thought would be an acceptable product. That's scary to me. And what's the point of buying a commercial license then, unless of course we're going to top that elusive $250,000 mark, and even then what can we be sure of?
- Can't create anything unless it's strictly "entertaining"
-- Not necessarily "entertaining" but a "game". And that is a wide interpretation anyway, so if you have any doubts about whether it fits, contact licensing.
That was kind of my point to most of the rant. As noted above, it's all pretty open ended so we don't know what we can and can't do without contacting licensing - short of a simple shooter or something. This means we'd have to finish a game, then send it to GG to see if they approve of it as is or we have to pay more to market it. Kind of like building a house with no defined zone codes and regs, then hoping the inspector approves it.
- Can't create anything for other than PC/Mac
-- You can port to Linux or other PC operating systems. You will have to get a different license for mobile devices or consoles, though. It has been this way for consoles for a long, long time.
Ya, I kind of lumped Linux into the PC bracket because it runs on a standard PC, as opposed to a Mac. Sorry for any confusion, I just count Linux as a PC operating system.
- Have to apparently re-read the EULA for each update I download
-- Pretty much every company that I know of the has a EULA has a clause that allows them to update it at any time with or without notification. It is good practice to always read the EULA with each release (or BeyondCompare it with the old one).Whether they make use of that clause depends on the company and decisions that they make along the way. But it is usually there as a safety net, and lawyers love safety nets.
As a general point I agree. For new product version releases I always check the EULA for changes, but in 33 years in the business I've very seldom seen such drastic changes to EULAs in point releases for updates/fixes. Not to say you couldn't find an example, just that it isn't standard business practice. There are of course exceptions when point changes to the product mandate it, such as including new 3rd party libraries and such.
Anyway, thanks again for the response. It really is appreciated. Simply had a rant and had to type it up, now back to the grind...
02/03/2008 (6:42 pm)
Hi David,Much nicer reply than I had thought I might get. Thanks. Definitely don't want to beat a dead horse (metaphor, of course), but just wanted to note a couple of things I'd seen in your post.
- Have to display a logo/splash screen (please read on before you flame me for that)
-- 'tis true.
Also have to put credits in the credit screen and/or about box.
- Can't create anything that someone might learn something from
-- You can created educational games. Things like Oregon Trail, Math Blaster, and the edutainment hits before there was a term edutainment are things that could definitely be done.
From Brett's plan:
"If you're wanting to profit from a simulation, serious game, virtual world, machinima, educational game or other game-not-for-entertainment application of Torque, you'll need to contact us at licensing@garagegames.com for licensing details."
Had to note the term "educational game" specifically included above. I noticed it particularly because it was sort of what I'd been designing. I've seen the games you mentioned, but simply going by the text we don't know what GG would approve and what they wouldn't. As I said, very open ended and undefined. Kind of leaves us hanging as to whether something we've worked hard on is okay or do we now have to negotiate a new deal with GG to market the product.
- Can't create "virtual worlds" (what on a computer isn't virtual?)
-- If you'll look at the "virtual world" market as it is today, you'll understand that it comprises much more than games. Often it works in social simulations, and is usually part of the "serious gaming" industry, which often needs to negotiate various licensing terms beyond a simple "indie" or "commercial" license. Because they were negotiating each of these licenses anyway, it made sense to reify it in the licensing.
Again here, we can hope for "virtual world" and "serious game" to mean one thing, but the statement above from the plan is pretty open ended about what kind of problems you could run into after you've finished what you thought would be an acceptable product. That's scary to me. And what's the point of buying a commercial license then, unless of course we're going to top that elusive $250,000 mark, and even then what can we be sure of?
- Can't create anything unless it's strictly "entertaining"
-- Not necessarily "entertaining" but a "game". And that is a wide interpretation anyway, so if you have any doubts about whether it fits, contact licensing.
That was kind of my point to most of the rant. As noted above, it's all pretty open ended so we don't know what we can and can't do without contacting licensing - short of a simple shooter or something. This means we'd have to finish a game, then send it to GG to see if they approve of it as is or we have to pay more to market it. Kind of like building a house with no defined zone codes and regs, then hoping the inspector approves it.
- Can't create anything for other than PC/Mac
-- You can port to Linux or other PC operating systems. You will have to get a different license for mobile devices or consoles, though. It has been this way for consoles for a long, long time.
Ya, I kind of lumped Linux into the PC bracket because it runs on a standard PC, as opposed to a Mac. Sorry for any confusion, I just count Linux as a PC operating system.
- Have to apparently re-read the EULA for each update I download
-- Pretty much every company that I know of the has a EULA has a clause that allows them to update it at any time with or without notification. It is good practice to always read the EULA with each release (or BeyondCompare it with the old one).Whether they make use of that clause depends on the company and decisions that they make along the way. But it is usually there as a safety net, and lawyers love safety nets.
As a general point I agree. For new product version releases I always check the EULA for changes, but in 33 years in the business I've very seldom seen such drastic changes to EULAs in point releases for updates/fixes. Not to say you couldn't find an example, just that it isn't standard business practice. There are of course exceptions when point changes to the product mandate it, such as including new 3rd party libraries and such.
Anyway, thanks again for the response. It really is appreciated. Simply had a rant and had to type it up, now back to the grind...
#6
02/04/2008 (6:54 am)
The best thing to do if you have any questions is to contact licensing. I had missed the educational games section upon reading it, but I think that part of the issue is similar to the serious games market where licensees were contacting GG directly because of publisher demands, etc in that market. But one thing that I know about GG (and especially Davey Jackson) is that we are extremely hip to educational services using Torque in traditional and non-traditional ways.
#7
02/04/2008 (8:21 am)
That's what I'll do if I get to that point with the game. As I said, it was just that when I laid out the extra for the commercial pro license it was with the understanding I could just "make a game" and not worry about what I put in the credits or how I put it in, or who the target audience was (educational or not). Thanks again, David...
#8
02/04/2008 (11:41 am)
Yeah, the new commercial license is a turn off for me as well.
#9
I also have notepads and pens for those who wish to rant but the EULA for my notepads include "burning your notes swiftly after writing" and "no sharing thoughts until the notes have been burned".
There will also a $140 fee for the ability to buy the notepad and a fee of $400 for anyone who does not wear the tshirt for longer than 1.25 hours after they have begun wearing said shirt.
TY
[ if you need more sarcasm...I charge $80 an hour with a fee for every laugh you expunge ]
02/07/2008 (12:26 am)
:: hands out "life isn't fair" t-shirts ::I also have notepads and pens for those who wish to rant but the EULA for my notepads include "burning your notes swiftly after writing" and "no sharing thoughts until the notes have been burned".
There will also a $140 fee for the ability to buy the notepad and a fee of $400 for anyone who does not wear the tshirt for longer than 1.25 hours after they have begun wearing said shirt.
TY
[ if you need more sarcasm...I charge $80 an hour with a fee for every laugh you expunge ]
#10
"Sarcasm - just one more free service I have to offer..."
On the other hand, you probably provide a much better quality of sarcasm. And I don't provide pens or notepads. Hey, maybe there should be a sarcasm store, for those times when you just can't come up with anything good on your own. With appropriate EULA included, of course...
Ah well, all in fun, huh?
02/07/2008 (1:50 pm)
:) Liked that, eb. Except $80 and hour is a little high, I think. My signature line on my site is:"Sarcasm - just one more free service I have to offer..."
On the other hand, you probably provide a much better quality of sarcasm. And I don't provide pens or notepads. Hey, maybe there should be a sarcasm store, for those times when you just can't come up with anything good on your own. With appropriate EULA included, of course...
Ah well, all in fun, huh?
#11
Intelligence is more powerful than an ego and respect is more powerful than both.
Eula agreements are for lawyers to argue about whilst being overseen by a Judge that can't comprehend technological issue.
Can anyone "deconstruct" the rulesðics of an EULA so that the concept is understood in full nature without losing or padding any of the cause ? ....never.
Earth is amazing in every facet...even the mere exploitations based on exploits with which they were exploited, is, in itself, a bit much and yet, not enough.
blah blah blitty blah blah bleh blah blah...give me $500 for the fee of becoming wiser in the field of Bullsh*t.
02/08/2008 (4:22 am)
Let me try on some philosophy now: :DIntelligence is more powerful than an ego and respect is more powerful than both.
Eula agreements are for lawyers to argue about whilst being overseen by a Judge that can't comprehend technological issue.
Can anyone "deconstruct" the rulesðics of an EULA so that the concept is understood in full nature without losing or padding any of the cause ? ....never.
Earth is amazing in every facet...even the mere exploitations based on exploits with which they were exploited, is, in itself, a bit much and yet, not enough.
blah blah blitty blah blah bleh blah blah...give me $500 for the fee of becoming wiser in the field of Bullsh*t.
#13
Promising...
02/08/2008 (7:02 am)
Quote:"One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit [...]"part of the book's charm is the puerile pleasure of reading classic academic discourse punctuated at regular intervals by the word "bullshit."
Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted."
Promising...
#14
What about a flight simulator that is a game?
What about a virtual world game?
What about an educational game that WAS made for entertainment, but happens to educate at the same time?
Under the EULA, all of the above are legal, if you read the letter of the EULA, despite Brett implying saying some are not. Pertinent bit:
I am fairly certain that a court would read that as follows:
"This license does not permit the use of the Engine for non-Game applications such as non-Game simulations, non-Game training, non-Game modeling, non-Game virtual worlds, or other non-Game products."
Of course, this leaves the definition of what is a Game and what is a non-Game up in the air. And it leaves a lot of people who want to make Game virtual worlds and Game educational software unsure whether IAC lawyers will come knocking on their door. Which is the REAL crux of the panic going on right now - you should have heard IRC this morning. Panic is the right word - panic and a good level of anger.
In the long run, the only people who are REALLY impacted by this will be indie license devs who were using TGE to do small bit jobs of a non-game variety, like a 3D lobby for someone, or something similar. They will now have to OK each new job, and possibly pay extra money.
Basically, this was a badly written out EULA change, and a badly thought out change in general. The ill-will that has been/will be generated by this will grossly outweigh any additional revenue it earns.
02/08/2008 (9:46 am)
That blog could not be any LESS clear. =(Quote:The standard EULAs available through online purchase now permit only games for entertainment. If you're wanting to profit from a simulation, serious game, virtual world, machinima, educational game or other game-not-for-entertainment application of Torque, you'll need to contact us at licensing@garagegames.com for licensing details.
What about a flight simulator that is a game?
What about a virtual world game?
What about an educational game that WAS made for entertainment, but happens to educate at the same time?
Under the EULA, all of the above are legal, if you read the letter of the EULA, despite Brett implying saying some are not. Pertinent bit:
Quote:(e) This license does not permit the use of the Engine for non-Game application such as simulations, training, modeling, virtual worlds, or other non-Game products. Use of the Engine for these applications requires a separate license. Contact licensing@garagegames.com for these applications of the Engine.
I am fairly certain that a court would read that as follows:
"This license does not permit the use of the Engine for non-Game applications such as non-Game simulations, non-Game training, non-Game modeling, non-Game virtual worlds, or other non-Game products."
Of course, this leaves the definition of what is a Game and what is a non-Game up in the air. And it leaves a lot of people who want to make Game virtual worlds and Game educational software unsure whether IAC lawyers will come knocking on their door. Which is the REAL crux of the panic going on right now - you should have heard IRC this morning. Panic is the right word - panic and a good level of anger.
In the long run, the only people who are REALLY impacted by this will be indie license devs who were using TGE to do small bit jobs of a non-game variety, like a 3D lobby for someone, or something similar. They will now have to OK each new job, and possibly pay extra money.
Basically, this was a badly written out EULA change, and a badly thought out change in general. The ill-will that has been/will be generated by this will grossly outweigh any additional revenue it earns.
#15
1) The EULA wording would get updated a lot as new conditions get added and things get clarified.
2) People would try to find ways to "get around" the very specific EULA conditions:
"The license says I have to upgrade if I have a 10 unit whatsit, but I only have a 9 unit whatsit..."
02/08/2008 (9:48 am)
I'm sure GG will be happy to clear up any licensing questions. I understand that the vagueness of the license wording is concerning, but at the same time I can understand why GG did it. If the licensing language were to get incredibly specific, I think we would see two things happen:1) The EULA wording would get updated a lot as new conditions get added and things get clarified.
2) People would try to find ways to "get around" the very specific EULA conditions:
"The license says I have to upgrade if I have a 10 unit whatsit, but I only have a 9 unit whatsit..."
#16
02/08/2008 (10:17 am)
Can I make an educational game where you simulate reading a virtual EULA? 
#19
02/08/2008 (12:24 pm)
What if I created a FPS, that had the scripts visible so others could learn from it? It is educational for Torquers, but is a game foremost. I think Clinton had it right, it really depends on what your definition of "is" is...
#20
02/08/2008 (12:44 pm)
If I put you in an isolation tank for twenty years would it be educational if no one knew and I never checked back (assuming you discovered a way to escape in those twenty years)? Perhaps to you since you would be "learning" to live in an isolation tank for twenty years. Would my purpose have been educational? Maybe. 
Torque Owner Terry
Default Studio Name
There are a lot of good people here doing a lot of good things. I like the technology. The community is a great support group. The business decisions, however, sometimes seem like something out of the book of Lee Iacocca's predecessor at Chrysler. (Okay, you can flame me for that if you like)
My last rant of this type was over the charge for the TGE 1.5 upgrade some time back. Again, I wouldn't have had a problem with a price increase for future customers, business sometimes dictates changes and price increases, but it was the idea that "implied" when I bought the original license this wouldn't happen. Made it appear to me, at least on the surface, that new sales were down so let's get a new round out of current customers. Was it worth the money? Yes, I think so. I didn't like it, but I paid it. Once again, not the point.
In any case, I'm sure no one will pay this rant notice - unless of course it's to flame me for being so blatently againt progress at GG, which I'm not. However I really do believe that if you don't complain about the dollar today, you have no reason to complain about the two dollars tomorrow. Just my 0.0256 cents worth, which may be worth more tomorrow depending on how I feel...
[/rant]
-Terry