Has this been done before? Is it worth pursuing?
by Dx · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 01/11/2008 (7:49 am) · 10 replies
Hi,
I've been wondering about coming up with a more.....unique game idea, something that I've been toying with is games where the character you play is not the focal point, that is to say, I was thinking of an idea in which you are not an apprentice with the potential to save the world, you have no destiny foretold buy.....some....crazy person with a pack of cards, you are a person just like any other in this fantasy world, a pain in the neck to a teacher, an normal everyday person, dismissed like any other.
I guess my question is this:
Would people buy a game where, they are not the leader of the game, I know a huge reason people buy games is so that they are th focal point of a world, they are important to a tale of fantasy, they, in the world created by programmers have certainty that they have a purpose that they have power....and so on and so forth.
Obviously that isn't the only thing that attracts people to games, but I'm just wondering your opinions about it.
I'm not talking about a sim game like....well...like The Sims, but the more I think about it and the more I put it down on paper the more I start to think that the system needed would have to be something quite complex for it to be pulled off, I mean if the gamer isn't the focal point there has to be something else in it that keeps his attention, in a normal game the gamer is the complex system that initiates pretty much everything.
I've been wondering about coming up with a more.....unique game idea, something that I've been toying with is games where the character you play is not the focal point, that is to say, I was thinking of an idea in which you are not an apprentice with the potential to save the world, you have no destiny foretold buy.....some....crazy person with a pack of cards, you are a person just like any other in this fantasy world, a pain in the neck to a teacher, an normal everyday person, dismissed like any other.
I guess my question is this:
Would people buy a game where, they are not the leader of the game, I know a huge reason people buy games is so that they are th focal point of a world, they are important to a tale of fantasy, they, in the world created by programmers have certainty that they have a purpose that they have power....and so on and so forth.
Obviously that isn't the only thing that attracts people to games, but I'm just wondering your opinions about it.
I'm not talking about a sim game like....well...like The Sims, but the more I think about it and the more I put it down on paper the more I start to think that the system needed would have to be something quite complex for it to be pulled off, I mean if the gamer isn't the focal point there has to be something else in it that keeps his attention, in a normal game the gamer is the complex system that initiates pretty much everything.
#2
You should write it down, though, and try to flesh it out. The adventure doesn't have to be sweeping to work. There are love sims where the point is to find love rather than save the world. There are shop sims where you have to work with supply and demand to keep your shop in business. Such things can be a lot of fun. They're definitely a niche market, but they can be a fun niche.
01/11/2008 (7:59 am)
There was a discussion quite a while back about something similar to this. The problem being that a game player will consider the character that they are playing as the protagonist of the story (should there be a story) since they are affecting the world or the character through their actions. To remove that from the player is to remove any association with changing the world. I like the idea of a story element where the player can be a sidekick or a shopkeeper or somesuch, but even then the game would be about keeping shop or pleasing the hero (not a far cry from quests given by kings in old school RPG's or any of the cooking/shopping sims out there).You should write it down, though, and try to flesh it out. The adventure doesn't have to be sweeping to work. There are love sims where the point is to find love rather than save the world. There are shop sims where you have to work with supply and demand to keep your shop in business. Such things can be a lot of fun. They're definitely a niche market, but they can be a fun niche.
#3
In the end, the player has to feel like they matter on some level. Even if they only matter to people who wouldn't be all that important anyway. Animal Forest is a bit like that, you're just some kid work works for a Raccoon that regularly violates child labor laws and hangs out with some rather spaced-out animals in their own houses. It works, because you can affect that little game world, which makes it engaging on a more intimate level.
01/11/2008 (8:03 am)
David seems to have a better grasp of your topic than I do. Still, I cannot fathom what you could possibly mean by a "crazy person with a pack of cards".In the end, the player has to feel like they matter on some level. Even if they only matter to people who wouldn't be all that important anyway. Animal Forest is a bit like that, you're just some kid work works for a Raccoon that regularly violates child labor laws and hangs out with some rather spaced-out animals in their own houses. It works, because you can affect that little game world, which makes it engaging on a more intimate level.
#4
I'm assuming you mean tycoon? sorry....it's just....I'm thinking the animal when you said that, quite amusing :)
@ Jason Ravencroft:
Sorry, I kinda kept it completely brief to avoid making a tool out of myself.
by "crazy person with a pack of card" I was referring to some games that have fortune tellers that predict your destiny, by cards, I meant tarot cards.
I was thinking of creating an environment where it's mainly master and grudgingly accepted apprentice, the game would focus on the relationship between the master and apprentice, though the revered character and main focus would be the master, I aim for the master to have an extremely complex personality, therefore the "master" would need a lot of planning, I also wish for it to not be.....not sure of the proper term.....gamer initiated, that is that the world is constantly running and calculating which means the player would have to be aware of how much time it takes to do things and consequences for being late and such.
I try and put the idea into a .plan arrangement to clarify what I'm rambling on about (puts it on "greatgamesexperiment" to-do list).
01/11/2008 (8:23 am)
OMG!, I'm extremely shocked at the lightning quick response! :O (and extremely pleasantly suprised :)Quote:Animal Forest is a bit like that, you're just some kid work works for a Raccoon that regularly violates child labor laws and hangs out with some rather spaced-out animals in their own houses.
I'm assuming you mean tycoon? sorry....it's just....I'm thinking the animal when you said that, quite amusing :)
@ Jason Ravencroft:
Sorry, I kinda kept it completely brief to avoid making a tool out of myself.
by "crazy person with a pack of card" I was referring to some games that have fortune tellers that predict your destiny, by cards, I meant tarot cards.
I was thinking of creating an environment where it's mainly master and grudgingly accepted apprentice, the game would focus on the relationship between the master and apprentice, though the revered character and main focus would be the master, I aim for the master to have an extremely complex personality, therefore the "master" would need a lot of planning, I also wish for it to not be.....not sure of the proper term.....gamer initiated, that is that the world is constantly running and calculating which means the player would have to be aware of how much time it takes to do things and consequences for being late and such.
I try and put the idea into a .plan arrangement to clarify what I'm rambling on about (puts it on "greatgamesexperiment" to-do list).
#5
I'm not trying for something 100% unique, just something unusual with the focal point on depth/realization.
I'm quite an unusual person, very philosophical and I think this game idea would almost be a reflection of that, I mean of course I know that gaming has a lot to do with instant gratification and I will incorporate features that satisfy that, I guess I'm just getting tired of games that have a focal goal and focus on developing a game that represents discovery and understanding about the fantasy world. (not that those games aren't great :)
also I LOVE working with particle stuff, so this would be a great excuse :D
it would also give me an opportunity to implement a real time personality stat system I've been thinking/sketching/planning about for a few months :)
01/11/2008 (8:31 am)
Sorry to post against straight after but I forgot to add a couple of things:I'm not trying for something 100% unique, just something unusual with the focal point on depth/realization.
I'm quite an unusual person, very philosophical and I think this game idea would almost be a reflection of that, I mean of course I know that gaming has a lot to do with instant gratification and I will incorporate features that satisfy that, I guess I'm just getting tired of games that have a focal goal and focus on developing a game that represents discovery and understanding about the fantasy world. (not that those games aren't great :)
also I LOVE working with particle stuff, so this would be a great excuse :D
it would also give me an opportunity to implement a real time personality stat system I've been thinking/sketching/planning about for a few months :)
#6
You really do work for a raccoon. His name is Tom Nook (a pun on tanuki).
01/11/2008 (9:31 am)
Well, there's no harm in being thorough. The worst that can happen is people would say, "Man, that's a unique and bad idea!" and you shouldn't worry too much about that.You really do work for a raccoon. His name is Tom Nook (a pun on tanuki).
#7
haha, thats brilliant, going to have to take a look at that :)
I'm starting to write up the idea now, I thought I might as well do it properly and create a word document with styles and a contents table just so I can just right click and click update, saves time in the long run and looks so much more presentable, plus when I go to put it online I won't have to do much extra.
Thats true but even then I wouldn't care that much because it would be a learning experience as well as a personal achievement.
I'm going to set myself the target of getting the outline of the game plan completed 7 days from now, as I said, this is definitely an idea I wish to pursue.
I want to try and merge some Chinese and Japanese philosophy and try and merge it into the game world, I also love the idea of the elements: earth, water, fire, air......trying to include those into the game play would be great fun.
I'm quite an abstract thinker so I will have to paint the big picture of the game in an idealistic view, the obtain a scope create a complete game design of all the features and mechanics I wish to include then break it down completely and version it, each version getting more and more complex until the goal is reached, creating a detailed design document for each version so that the scope is maintained and the project doesn't go spinning out of control. So far working that way on independent projects has worked.....though the most complex thing I've done so far is making an instant messenger and simple basic games using C++.
either way, I love a challenge. :)
01/11/2008 (10:39 am)
Sorry for the delay in replying, it hit rush hour at panera so they cut off the wifi :(haha, thats brilliant, going to have to take a look at that :)
I'm starting to write up the idea now, I thought I might as well do it properly and create a word document with styles and a contents table just so I can just right click and click update, saves time in the long run and looks so much more presentable, plus when I go to put it online I won't have to do much extra.
Quote:The worst that can happen is people would say, "Man, that's a unique and bad idea!" and you shouldn't worry too much about that.
Thats true but even then I wouldn't care that much because it would be a learning experience as well as a personal achievement.
I'm going to set myself the target of getting the outline of the game plan completed 7 days from now, as I said, this is definitely an idea I wish to pursue.
I want to try and merge some Chinese and Japanese philosophy and try and merge it into the game world, I also love the idea of the elements: earth, water, fire, air......trying to include those into the game play would be great fun.
I'm quite an abstract thinker so I will have to paint the big picture of the game in an idealistic view, the obtain a scope create a complete game design of all the features and mechanics I wish to include then break it down completely and version it, each version getting more and more complex until the goal is reached, creating a detailed design document for each version so that the scope is maintained and the project doesn't go spinning out of control. So far working that way on independent projects has worked.....though the most complex thing I've done so far is making an instant messenger and simple basic games using C++.
either way, I love a challenge. :)
#8
Another one, if you like fantasy, is Thief of Time. The 'coolest' character is the master, but the 'protagonist' (among others) is the apprentice. Although, it's not really the same, because without ruining the plot too much, the apprentice does turn out to be incredibly important.
What I think you need to do is focus on things the player character can do, maybe little errands or things he runs for the main character, that are interesting and fun. They serve to make the main character notice and appreciate the player character. I'll give you a monk/temple example for the sake of argument:
The master walks along the line of novices to choose an apprentice, decides they're all junk, and picks one randomly (what a coincidence that it's the player character every time!). Already you're building some emotional investment here - the player character feels like they have to prove something. Then as the story goes on, the player character runs errands and does simple tasks, the objective being to win favour with the master. Some interesting situations could be made from this - do you 'cheat' or somehow take advantage of a friend or fellow novice to look better to your master? Etcetera.
I think a game like that could really work - depending on the setting, I'd definately play it.
01/11/2008 (10:33 pm)
If you're into reading, I highly reccomend you have a look at The Great Gatsby. The whole book is told from the point-of-view of someone who isn't the most glamorous character, and it's all about the character's relationship with Gatsby, who is. It's a great book, so it proves that the concept can work, at least in literature.Another one, if you like fantasy, is Thief of Time. The 'coolest' character is the master, but the 'protagonist' (among others) is the apprentice. Although, it's not really the same, because without ruining the plot too much, the apprentice does turn out to be incredibly important.
What I think you need to do is focus on things the player character can do, maybe little errands or things he runs for the main character, that are interesting and fun. They serve to make the main character notice and appreciate the player character. I'll give you a monk/temple example for the sake of argument:
The master walks along the line of novices to choose an apprentice, decides they're all junk, and picks one randomly (what a coincidence that it's the player character every time!). Already you're building some emotional investment here - the player character feels like they have to prove something. Then as the story goes on, the player character runs errands and does simple tasks, the objective being to win favour with the master. Some interesting situations could be made from this - do you 'cheat' or somehow take advantage of a friend or fellow novice to look better to your master? Etcetera.
I think a game like that could really work - depending on the setting, I'd definately play it.
#9
I think this kind of game would turn out best if the player is just 1 character amongst many all acting for the same thing. If you make the character "not the most important" but still have him being the only person doing any work, it starts to feel like, even though you don't have the most prestigous position, you really are the most important.
01/12/2008 (10:07 am)
I think the idea can work very well, but you wouldn't be able to use many current gaming ideas. For example, I think it would be cool to play a war game and just be an average soldier when dropped onto the battlefield. They try to make it seem like you're the average man but the fact that on a D-Day level, hundreds of people wait at a point just for you to show up seems a bit wierd. But then again, if every AI soldier acted on their own in the way current war games act, solving objectives and taking the town you could AFK and beat the entire game. You would have to tweak it so the game depends on you being their, without you having to take care of the bulk of the work. That's just a WW2 example of course, this can be done with any idea.I think this kind of game would turn out best if the player is just 1 character amongst many all acting for the same thing. If you make the character "not the most important" but still have him being the only person doing any work, it starts to feel like, even though you don't have the most prestigous position, you really are the most important.
Torque 3D Owner Jason Ravencroft
You mean a game...where the player isn't the most...important...person? If you'd like to...see something similar...see The Guild. It's incredibly...tedious. It accurately recreates...the monotony...if everyday life. At some point...you need a story...
To be perfectly frank, I have no idea what you're saying beyond "A game where you're not really all that important."