Garage Games
by James Dunlap · in Torque Game Engine · 12/06/2007 (12:29 pm) · 23 replies
Garage Games,
This fall at the IGC you unveiled your plans to develop an new game engine known as Torque2. During that blaze of excitement and confusion you pleaded with the concerned community to be patient and not to jump to conclusions. I have done this. I have stayed in GG's corner through this and I have confronted many doom sayers who are proclaiming GG is going to abandon the indie community in pursuits of its own interests.
On October 18'th Stephen Zepp posted a blog describing
Transparent Development and how GG intended to implement it. This is a tall order and I can understand Garage Games taking time in getting it rolling. It's been nearly two months and there has not been a single blog on Torque 2. However Instant Action is getting plenty of coverage. If the spirit of transparent development exists we should be hearing something. Even if the project is not ready to be opened up it couldn't hurt to tell us that.
We were told that there was a number of full time devs working on Torque 2, a blog every couple weeks shouldn't be a terrible thing to ask. Even if all the blog says is:
"Dear Dudes, this is the Torque2 team, we are alive and well. We cannot tell you anything yet but we just wanted to let to know we still exist
thinking of you,
The Torque2 Team."
I'm not trying to cause a flame war or be a disgruntled community member. I still have a positive view on what GG is doing. But with rumors floating around such as "GG is droping openGL support for T2" I don't see how there can be such silence from GG when there is a lot of earnest concern in the community.
James Dunlap -
This fall at the IGC you unveiled your plans to develop an new game engine known as Torque2. During that blaze of excitement and confusion you pleaded with the concerned community to be patient and not to jump to conclusions. I have done this. I have stayed in GG's corner through this and I have confronted many doom sayers who are proclaiming GG is going to abandon the indie community in pursuits of its own interests.
On October 18'th Stephen Zepp posted a blog describing
Transparent Development and how GG intended to implement it. This is a tall order and I can understand Garage Games taking time in getting it rolling. It's been nearly two months and there has not been a single blog on Torque 2. However Instant Action is getting plenty of coverage. If the spirit of transparent development exists we should be hearing something. Even if the project is not ready to be opened up it couldn't hurt to tell us that.
We were told that there was a number of full time devs working on Torque 2, a blog every couple weeks shouldn't be a terrible thing to ask. Even if all the blog says is:
"Dear Dudes, this is the Torque2 team, we are alive and well. We cannot tell you anything yet but we just wanted to let to know we still exist
thinking of you,
The Torque2 Team."
I'm not trying to cause a flame war or be a disgruntled community member. I still have a positive view on what GG is doing. But with rumors floating around such as "GG is droping openGL support for T2" I don't see how there can be such silence from GG when there is a lot of earnest concern in the community.
James Dunlap -
About the author
#2
Literally nothing has changed regarding that situation, and if it had, you would have been told about it. The program itself has not begun, which is why it's not yet in effect.
This one struck me as funny--first, OpenGL support for T2 was never promised, so how could we drop it? Nothing at all has been promised for T2--the very definition of transparent development implies no promises, simply discussion.
Secondly, where in the world did you hear that it's being dropped? First I've heard about even the rumor to that effect.
12/06/2007 (1:48 pm)
As has been mentioned many times by myself (The Transparent Development Program Manager), the program will be kicking off in the near future. We will be using different web infrastructure, and providing information as it is appropriate.Literally nothing has changed regarding that situation, and if it had, you would have been told about it. The program itself has not begun, which is why it's not yet in effect.
Quote:
But with rumors floating around such as "GG is droping openGL support for T2"
This one struck me as funny--first, OpenGL support for T2 was never promised, so how could we drop it? Nothing at all has been promised for T2--the very definition of transparent development implies no promises, simply discussion.
Secondly, where in the world did you hear that it's being dropped? First I've heard about even the rumor to that effect.
#3
You are correct, perhaps dropped was a poor choice of words and no it was never promised. But at the very least it has been implied:
I do not understand how you plan do to that without openGL.
Perhaps I'm blowing things out of proportion but it does feel as though we are being prepped for bad news.
You never got back to us with specifics and as for the rumor itself, it was in the tail end of your transparent development blog.
I do not place much validity in these rumors but I do in the lack of a response from GG. I understand your new web interface is still on the way but it's clear in that thread that many community members would like to know if there will be openGL support and you don't really need a web interface to answer that (if you know). I understand your not in charge of that so if you are unaware then the question is not directed to you.
Stephen you in particular have spent many hours posting in he forums and worked very hard to answer a multitude of questions. I want to make it clear I'm not directing and dissatisfaction at you.
I'm not trying to cause trouble. But it has gotten quite quiet and hopefully you understand my reasons for concern. If this is going to cause trouble I will certainly let it drop.
EDIT: fixed broken quote tags.
12/06/2007 (2:16 pm)
I am not demanding or even asking you begin the transparent development stage of torque 2 before it is ready. But I find it hard to believe that with all the progress you folks have made in the past few months there isn't anything you can tell us. Perhaps I've jumped the gun but its been extremely quiet since the introduction at the IGC.Quote:This one struck me as funny--first, OpenGL support for T2 was never promised, so how could we drop it? Nothing at all has been promised for T2--the very definition of transparent development implies no promises, simply discussion.
You are correct, perhaps dropped was a poor choice of words and no it was never promised. But at the very least it has been implied:
Quote:Cross platform capability is, as it always has been, important to us, and the underlying architecture is being written with cross platform compatibility built in as it always has.
Quote:We plan on testing Mac compatibility all the way through the development process, as much as possible. In fact, we recently hired a second engineer with extensive Mac experience (John Hearn) to work alongside Paul Scott to make sure our builds stay in touch with the Mac OS.
I do not understand how you plan do to that without openGL.
Quote:Secondly, where in the world did you hear that it's being dropped? First I've heard about even the rumor to that effect.
Perhaps I'm blowing things out of proportion but it does feel as though we are being prepped for bad news.
Quote:
Quote:
Here I have two questions Stephen:
what versions of OpenGL and/or DirectX are been considered? This is just been taken from the current renderer or are plans to develop extensions?
I'm going to have to get back to you on that one--I'm not sure what device drivers we have currently are for R&D purposes, and which are expected to be part of Torque 2.
You never got back to us with specifics and as for the rumor itself, it was in the tail end of your transparent development blog.
Quote:will if you notice it doesn't say anything about OpenGL on the Features page anymore.
I do not place much validity in these rumors but I do in the lack of a response from GG. I understand your new web interface is still on the way but it's clear in that thread that many community members would like to know if there will be openGL support and you don't really need a web interface to answer that (if you know). I understand your not in charge of that so if you are unaware then the question is not directed to you.
Stephen you in particular have spent many hours posting in he forums and worked very hard to answer a multitude of questions. I want to make it clear I'm not directing and dissatisfaction at you.
I'm not trying to cause trouble. But it has gotten quite quiet and hopefully you understand my reasons for concern. If this is going to cause trouble I will certainly let it drop.
EDIT: fixed broken quote tags.
#4
There hasn't been enough information, good/bad or indifferent, to go through significant posting here or in other existing areas. If/when there is, I will :)
I never got back to the specifics because the question had already been asked and answered, and my answer didn't change--I mentioned that we didn't have specific information ready to release on specific GFX devices, and that I would get back to you when it was available--it still isn't ready for public consumption, so I haven't yet brought it up.
Torque 2 is still in a hugely destructive phase--daily changes are made that migrate towards a fully component driven structure, away from usability at this point. Once the reverse swing of the pendulum happens, and it exists in a state that shows positive and continued progress towards usable techniques, processes, and structure above and beyond what has been described (and as soon as the architecture is in place to do so in a unified web location), information will be more forthcoming.
Basically, without trying to weasel out of anything--you are actually asking for information that isn't available yet. When it is, it will be made available :)
12/06/2007 (2:26 pm)
It's quiet because I have the choice of continuing to post information here and then have to copy it all from various posts, threads, and blogs into the new web architecture, or wait until the new architecture is available and tested, and finally proven ready for large use.There hasn't been enough information, good/bad or indifferent, to go through significant posting here or in other existing areas. If/when there is, I will :)
I never got back to the specifics because the question had already been asked and answered, and my answer didn't change--I mentioned that we didn't have specific information ready to release on specific GFX devices, and that I would get back to you when it was available--it still isn't ready for public consumption, so I haven't yet brought it up.
Torque 2 is still in a hugely destructive phase--daily changes are made that migrate towards a fully component driven structure, away from usability at this point. Once the reverse swing of the pendulum happens, and it exists in a state that shows positive and continued progress towards usable techniques, processes, and structure above and beyond what has been described (and as soon as the architecture is in place to do so in a unified web location), information will be more forthcoming.
Basically, without trying to weasel out of anything--you are actually asking for information that isn't available yet. When it is, it will be made available :)
#5
First and foremost, like you I am curious about what's going to happen with Torque 2. I have a vested interest in seeing it succeed past anything done before it with the Torque engines because it is lively hood of myself, my company and many of my good friends (who both worth for GG and those that have their own studios) at stake. But with that said, I think everyone needs to sit down and chill out with a beer (or two) before they ring the alarms about this sort of stuff or worrying that because nothing has been said that's also a sign that something horrible is about to happen (the whole 'silence before the storm' theory).
As an associate I am privy to a few things, but the truth of the matter is that you know as much as we know because there is nothing GarageGames has to share or bounce off of us. There is no secret discussion that I know of about crippling features, drowning kittens or feeding babies to trolls going on that you are not privy to. Like GG has said, they are working on Juggernaught and in the process are using it as a stepping stone to eventually create Torque 2.
So please, just chill out, let the team work. When Stephen has information to share he will share it with all of us when it is time. Asking for information that he does not have isn't going to result in anything but a lot of ill will between people that is completely unnecessary.
Logan
12/06/2007 (2:43 pm)
Personally I am a bit startled by what has been said already about it, because it is alarming how badly someone(s) can spread a rumor about something and get people into a frenzy and then it puts the defendents up a massive PR campaign to nip the problem off before it really gets out of hand.First and foremost, like you I am curious about what's going to happen with Torque 2. I have a vested interest in seeing it succeed past anything done before it with the Torque engines because it is lively hood of myself, my company and many of my good friends (who both worth for GG and those that have their own studios) at stake. But with that said, I think everyone needs to sit down and chill out with a beer (or two) before they ring the alarms about this sort of stuff or worrying that because nothing has been said that's also a sign that something horrible is about to happen (the whole 'silence before the storm' theory).
As an associate I am privy to a few things, but the truth of the matter is that you know as much as we know because there is nothing GarageGames has to share or bounce off of us. There is no secret discussion that I know of about crippling features, drowning kittens or feeding babies to trolls going on that you are not privy to. Like GG has said, they are working on Juggernaught and in the process are using it as a stepping stone to eventually create Torque 2.
So please, just chill out, let the team work. When Stephen has information to share he will share it with all of us when it is time. Asking for information that he does not have isn't going to result in anything but a lot of ill will between people that is completely unnecessary.
Logan
#6
With the fantastic first teaser announcement (and follow ups) that Stephen offered, it's hard for folks to not want more.
12/06/2007 (3:13 pm)
The only real way to combat rumors are with information. The longer an information void exists, the more opportunity there are for rumors to circulate and gather momentum.With the fantastic first teaser announcement (and follow ups) that Stephen offered, it's hard for folks to not want more.
#7
I'd like to know a little more about this "feeding babies to trolls" thing. Would there be a one time fee, or will it be some kind of pay to play setup...oh wait, you said you didn't know of those discussions...sorry, I'll guess I'll have to wait for the official announcement...
12/06/2007 (3:19 pm)
@L Foster,I'd like to know a little more about this "feeding babies to trolls" thing. Would there be a one time fee, or will it be some kind of pay to play setup...oh wait, you said you didn't know of those discussions...sorry, I'll guess I'll have to wait for the official announcement...
#8
12/06/2007 (3:26 pm)
Ehh, GG exists because of its customers, I see no problem with demanding a response to a rumor. Or demanding a reasonable interval of information.
#9
Brian, companies change. We are no longer Garage Games primary clients. Instant action is Garage Games priority and that is expected. Basically Brian, we are in no position to make demands so lets not make any. My only concern was the "void" of information. There was great buildup and then the momentum died and that caused me concern.
12/06/2007 (6:57 pm)
Quote: Ehh, GG exists because of its customers, I see no problem with demanding a response to a rumor. Or demanding a reasonable interval of information.
Brian, companies change. We are no longer Garage Games primary clients. Instant action is Garage Games priority and that is expected. Basically Brian, we are in no position to make demands so lets not make any. My only concern was the "void" of information. There was great buildup and then the momentum died and that caused me concern.
#10
Actually, that's not true either--in fact, we have an entire business unit (one of the larger ones in the company) devoted to engine end users. It just takes time for things to happen, and honestly it's only been 2 months since the announcement of Transparent Development, and Torque 2.
The entire purpose is to bring the information to you guys as early as feasible. Right now, any information would be totally unstable, and therefore serve as misleading.
Once both the infrastructure, and the information is ready, we'll be bringing it out :)
12/06/2007 (7:28 pm)
Quote:
Brian, companies change. We are no longer Garage Games primary clients. Instant action is Garage Games priority and that is expected.
Actually, that's not true either--in fact, we have an entire business unit (one of the larger ones in the company) devoted to engine end users. It just takes time for things to happen, and honestly it's only been 2 months since the announcement of Transparent Development, and Torque 2.
The entire purpose is to bring the information to you guys as early as feasible. Right now, any information would be totally unstable, and therefore serve as misleading.
Once both the infrastructure, and the information is ready, we'll be bringing it out :)
#11
12/06/2007 (7:43 pm)
Quote:
[17:14](that was in reference to James "bitch at GG about TD" thread by the way...)
[17:24]IA is more important than Torque2 right now
#12
Developing a complex codebase is not like nerfing a spell or whatever. It's like take the stable build and run
with it. Worry about tomorrow when it comes.
12/06/2007 (7:47 pm)
It's not like patching an MMO. It's more milestone driven and that's not as frequent. Developing a complex codebase is not like nerfing a spell or whatever. It's like take the stable build and run
with it. Worry about tomorrow when it comes.
#13
Umm, not sure if you realize, but Tim-MGT doesn't work for GG...
Yes, IA is important to us--very much so. However, Clark, Justin, Andy, Brian, and all of the other folks working on T2 don't have anything whatsoever to do with the IA team.
And the Tech & Tools team is yet another completely different business unit in GG, made up of entirely different people from both the IA and Engine Dev teams.
12/06/2007 (8:01 pm)
Quote:
Quote:
[17:14](that was in reference to James "bitch at GG about TD" thread by the way...)
[17:24]IA is more important than Torque2 right now
Edited on Dec 06, 2007 19:44
Umm, not sure if you realize, but Tim-MGT doesn't work for GG...
Yes, IA is important to us--very much so. However, Clark, Justin, Andy, Brian, and all of the other folks working on T2 don't have anything whatsoever to do with the IA team.
And the Tech & Tools team is yet another completely different business unit in GG, made up of entirely different people from both the IA and Engine Dev teams.
#14
I didn't, my apologies.
To clarify: I'm accusing GG of abandoning T2 for IA. Considering that Activision now owns GG I am grateful that T2 is still a major consideration.
12/06/2007 (8:10 pm)
Quote: Umm, not sure if you realize, but Tim-MGT doesn't work for GG...
I didn't, my apologies.
To clarify: I'm accusing GG of abandoning T2 for IA. Considering that Activision now owns GG I am grateful that T2 is still a major consideration.
#15
12/06/2007 (8:22 pm)
I don't even understand the Tim-MGT thing, but what is the whole "Activision now owns GG" deal? 
#16
12/06/2007 (8:24 pm)
I think hes talking about when IAC bought GG for 50 million, IAC also "i think" dont quote me on that owns activision. i think thats what hes saying.
#17
I'm not meaning to be rude, but that whole quote is filled with misunderstandings.
IAC gained a majority share of GG early on this year--but they don't have day to day control over our operations.
IA was an initiative (R&D for the last 2 years) of GarageGames, that IAC recognized as being a valuable plan, and they wanted to share their resources with us for mutual benefit and interest.
T2 was announced literally months after the IAC partnership, and is a very much ongoing major project within GG.
IAC does not own Activision. Vivendi Universal, who owns Blizzard, joined Blizzard with Activision. None of that has anything to do with IAC or GG :)
12/06/2007 (8:36 pm)
Quote:
I'm accusing GG of abandoning T2 for IA. Considering that Activision now owns GG I am grateful that T2 is still a major consideration.
I'm not meaning to be rude, but that whole quote is filled with misunderstandings.
IAC gained a majority share of GG early on this year--but they don't have day to day control over our operations.
IA was an initiative (R&D for the last 2 years) of GarageGames, that IAC recognized as being a valuable plan, and they wanted to share their resources with us for mutual benefit and interest.
T2 was announced literally months after the IAC partnership, and is a very much ongoing major project within GG.
IAC does not own Activision. Vivendi Universal, who owns Blizzard, joined Blizzard with Activision. None of that has anything to do with IAC or GG :)
#18
IAC itself is splitting into five different companies, but GarageGames is staying in the main IAC part. See:
http://www.iac.com/index/news/press/IAC/press_release_detail.htm?id=8831.
12/06/2007 (8:41 pm)
IAC, which owns GarageGames, is not the same company as Activision, which has itself agreed to be bought by Vivendi.IAC itself is splitting into five different companies, but GarageGames is staying in the main IAC part. See:
http://www.iac.com/index/news/press/IAC/press_release_detail.htm?id=8831.
#19
I never said or implied that they did. What I did imply is that since "IAC" essentially owns GG that their interests (IA) are more prevalent than those of TGE/A license owners (T2) and understandably so.
I appreciate the reassurance. I've not intended this thread as an attack, however, from the responses it seems as though it may have been taken as on. You've given good reasons for the "information void" but the community is full of critics and they do start rumors and in a void its easy to get confused.
But by the school of hard Knox, you've set me straight.
12/06/2007 (10:07 pm)
I'm going to have to eat some humble pie here. Edward is correct, I intended to say IAC. The Blizzard Activision affair was still fresh in my mind I apologize for the confusion. Quote:IAC gained a majority share of GG early on this year--but they don't have day to day control over our operations.
I never said or implied that they did. What I did imply is that since "IAC" essentially owns GG that their interests (IA) are more prevalent than those of TGE/A license owners (T2) and understandably so.
Quote:T2 was announced literally months after the IAC partnership, and is a very much ongoing major project within GG.
I appreciate the reassurance. I've not intended this thread as an attack, however, from the responses it seems as though it may have been taken as on. You've given good reasons for the "information void" but the community is full of critics and they do start rumors and in a void its easy to get confused.
But by the school of hard Knox, you've set me straight.
#20
Once the newer, shinier model is announced and described, sales of the old reliable model fall off.
If they described the whole product, it would get worse. People that thought about getting TGEA or buying a tool pack for TGE would wait and see.
So giving out too much information too long before being ready to ship is just bad business.
12/06/2007 (10:21 pm)
Now we have seen this cycle before. 286, 386, 486, Pentium...Once the newer, shinier model is announced and described, sales of the old reliable model fall off.
If they described the whole product, it would get worse. People that thought about getting TGEA or buying a tool pack for TGE would wait and see.
So giving out too much information too long before being ready to ship is just bad business.
Torque 3D Owner Edward
you do have a early adapter? Or are the other games already announced for IAC being made on a different platform? Just some of the confusion and speculation, that some of us would like to know whats going on.