Suggested changes to the mission editor
by Victor Didra · in Artist Corner · 09/02/2002 (1:11 pm) · 36 replies
Hello,
I'm asking for thoughts/suggestions on how the mission editor can be improved. I am writing a design doc for an improved editor, and would be interested in anything that people who have used it have to say. If you have used it but were turned off by it for some reason, be sure to post as well.
Be as specific as you can when talking about particular details. If you have another editor that does a similair function better, let us know what that one is as well.
As an example:
In my current version (1_1_1) pressing undo does not bring back deleted objects, although it should.
Object xyz adjustment. There are currently type in and manual xyz adjustments. Spinners similair to those found in MAX would allow for finer adjustment without having to type in numbers.
Lates
Vic-D
I'm asking for thoughts/suggestions on how the mission editor can be improved. I am writing a design doc for an improved editor, and would be interested in anything that people who have used it have to say. If you have used it but were turned off by it for some reason, be sure to post as well.
Be as specific as you can when talking about particular details. If you have another editor that does a similair function better, let us know what that one is as well.
As an example:
In my current version (1_1_1) pressing undo does not bring back deleted objects, although it should.
Object xyz adjustment. There are currently type in and manual xyz adjustments. Spinners similair to those found in MAX would allow for finer adjustment without having to type in numbers.
Lates
Vic-D
#2
2. When you specify coordinates to reposition an object/interior in the panel, the extents box and gizmo move, but the object remains where it was and doesn't update its position until you close and reopen the mission (which is a pain if you're moving a lot of stuff). Can this be fixed somehow?
Stephan:
(not sure of technicalities of whats going on there)
I think that it just adjusts the object's X and Y values, regardless of the camera's orientation. It might be nice to make this toggleable in the menus, though (absolute vs. relative repositioning).
-Corvi
09/02/2002 (4:38 pm)
1. Having the numbers on the panel update when you drag an object around with the gizmo, so pressing Apply when you want to change another setting doesn't revert the object to the location specified in the panel if you've moved it somewhere else.2. When you specify coordinates to reposition an object/interior in the panel, the extents box and gizmo move, but the object remains where it was and doesn't update its position until you close and reopen the mission (which is a pain if you're moving a lot of stuff). Can this be fixed somehow?
Stephan:
(not sure of technicalities of whats going on there)
I think that it just adjusts the object's X and Y values, regardless of the camera's orientation. It might be nice to make this toggleable in the menus, though (absolute vs. relative repositioning).
-Corvi
#3
Perhaps an "update" button would be more appropriate?
09/02/2002 (4:50 pm)
James, if you remember to click on the name of the object in the upper right hand box before you hit "apply", that should take care of #1... maybe 2, too, but I don't remember offhand.Perhaps an "update" button would be more appropriate?
#4
*XYZ variables change with movement instead of having to click off and back on object
*Auto-level objects (can be turned off)
*Slide bar for Red/Blue/Green? (eh... it'd be nice)
Aside from that, this mission editor is probably the easiest to use I've had in a long while.
09/02/2002 (5:58 pm)
*Fix the New Mission function... Every time I use it RW crashes.*XYZ variables change with movement instead of having to click off and back on object
*Auto-level objects (can be turned off)
*Slide bar for Red/Blue/Green? (eh... it'd be nice)
Aside from that, this mission editor is probably the easiest to use I've had in a long while.
#5
Along with that would come at least 3 veiws similiar to MAX or UnrealEd. In wire frame and solid. Also have some of the view disappear (Or fog out) at a User set distance. To adjust for machines. Simaler to Quark
Also a implied grid would be nice. You could keep object on the grid no matter what plane you are on. You could range it from 1-64 or somthing.
Of course an in editor object builder would be nice but not a nescarry thing.
Previewer for sky's, water, and particles would be fantastic. I think there is already one for particles don't know how it works but that could be added.
Some Keybinds for moving object. The mouse is to sensitive and of course this play's into my above idea for an implied grid. This might already be possible I don't know.
In editor "SHOW" tools would be great. I think you should be able to call those up while making maps and/or testing new models.
An Autosave feature and Undo (mention in the before thread) would be great.
An in game text editor for making ajustments to the script or mission file on the fly could be handy.
And he goes on and on and on ........
Matt
09/02/2002 (6:00 pm)
I would like to see the editor not run in real time. I have seen quete a bit of lag on slower machines if any effects are on during the editing period. {IE precipition)Along with that would come at least 3 veiws similiar to MAX or UnrealEd. In wire frame and solid. Also have some of the view disappear (Or fog out) at a User set distance. To adjust for machines. Simaler to Quark
Also a implied grid would be nice. You could keep object on the grid no matter what plane you are on. You could range it from 1-64 or somthing.
Of course an in editor object builder would be nice but not a nescarry thing.
Previewer for sky's, water, and particles would be fantastic. I think there is already one for particles don't know how it works but that could be added.
Some Keybinds for moving object. The mouse is to sensitive and of course this play's into my above idea for an implied grid. This might already be possible I don't know.
In editor "SHOW" tools would be great. I think you should be able to call those up while making maps and/or testing new models.
An Autosave feature and Undo (mention in the before thread) would be great.
An in game text editor for making ajustments to the script or mission file on the fly could be handy.
And he goes on and on and on ........
Matt
#6
09/02/2002 (6:53 pm)
Eric: I click that to select it, play with it, and the panel numbers don't update in either 1.1.2 or the HEAD. =/
#7
I'm not sure how you would use the editor, if not in real time. UnrealEd does it in real time, although it does have three 2D windows. Those might come in handy, but I like that I can see it in action. Who here really wants to build games they can't play on their own computer, anyway? ;-)
You might check out the editor settings. There's some other options that are for the editor plane that you might find useful. I haven't messed with them at all yet.
Good suggestions--the text editor would be nice.
09/02/2002 (7:11 pm)
Matthew, I believe some of those are already implemented. There are settings for distance and such in the edit--->world Editor Settings when in the editor. I'm not sure they work, or not, so another option is to open the inspector and change the viewing and/or fog distance.I'm not sure how you would use the editor, if not in real time. UnrealEd does it in real time, although it does have three 2D windows. Those might come in handy, but I like that I can see it in action. Who here really wants to build games they can't play on their own computer, anyway? ;-)
You might check out the editor settings. There's some other options that are for the editor plane that you might find useful. I haven't messed with them at all yet.
Good suggestions--the text editor would be nice.
#8
09/02/2002 (7:14 pm)
James, click the name to select the item, then move it, and then click the name again to update the new coordinates.
#10
Looks like we have some requests for better positioning of objects (couldn't agree more), automatic updating of values associated with ojbects, and some general clean up of standard features (autosave.)
The split view idea is an interesting one. I would like to see something like that integrated as well, but don't think it is totally neccissary until we can build geometry within the mission editor...
So for the building builders, would you like to see this functionality integrated into the mission editor? I personally do, and intend to include it in the document I am preparing. I believe that time saved by being able to build an interior inside of the mission, with the terrain right there as a reference, would be significant. The question is, is it feasable from a techincal perspective? What do the experts say?
Another one going in the doc:
- Color wheels for Fog, Sun.
Vic-D
09/03/2002 (1:53 pm)
Thanks for the replies guys. Looks like we have some requests for better positioning of objects (couldn't agree more), automatic updating of values associated with ojbects, and some general clean up of standard features (autosave.)
The split view idea is an interesting one. I would like to see something like that integrated as well, but don't think it is totally neccissary until we can build geometry within the mission editor...
So for the building builders, would you like to see this functionality integrated into the mission editor? I personally do, and intend to include it in the document I am preparing. I believe that time saved by being able to build an interior inside of the mission, with the terrain right there as a reference, would be significant. The question is, is it feasable from a techincal perspective? What do the experts say?
Another one going in the doc:
- Color wheels for Fog, Sun.
Vic-D
#11
Take and build a tall narrow mountain and make a crater on top, so it resembles a volcano, then place a water block and set it so it shows correctly inside the mountain, now save your map and restart it, if you had the same prob as I did as soon as you look in the direction of the volcano, the game will crash with a warning.
09/03/2002 (3:16 pm)
I got a small bug for yas...Take and build a tall narrow mountain and make a crater on top, so it resembles a volcano, then place a water block and set it so it shows correctly inside the mountain, now save your map and restart it, if you had the same prob as I did as soon as you look in the direction of the volcano, the game will crash with a warning.
#12
09/03/2002 (7:32 pm)
You're right about #2--doesn't update in R1.1.2 either.
#13
Type in the new coords and hit apply.
A red box will appear at the new coordinates. A yellow box still surrounds the item which is still at the old coordinates. Click on the item itself in the game view and it will transport over to the new location.
It'll also update if you try to move the red box in the game view.
I'm guessing this is a 'feature' so the mapper would be able to see where his item is getting placed before actual placement. Then he could type in different coords. Just speculating, though.
09/03/2002 (11:13 pm)
For #2:Type in the new coords and hit apply.
A red box will appear at the new coordinates. A yellow box still surrounds the item which is still at the old coordinates. Click on the item itself in the game view and it will transport over to the new location.
It'll also update if you try to move the red box in the game view.
I'm guessing this is a 'feature' so the mapper would be able to see where his item is getting placed before actual placement. Then he could type in different coords. Just speculating, though.
#14
The process of making an interior is just too complex to shoehorn into the editor. There is the map making (which possibly you could do, but remember its CSG ops which arent that simple to get right for portalisation etc).
Then there's the lighting and collision volume creations etc.
I dont see any problem in using art assets imported from another source, as long as they look great and are easy to produce. I dont think the WC/Quark route is THAT difficult.
Phil.
BTW: editor idea's
1) Timeline, with keyframed splines for movement/actions on objects (players, camera, other stuff).
2) Terrain masks for different terrain properties (i.e. vegetation type, passability, friction setting, AI info etc).
3) Have each field have an associated real time editor (for instance, a colour field would have a colour picker, a float field would have a scroll bar. Kind of like a properties inspector from a modern programming language.
4) Ability to orient textures on the ground. i.e. normally the texture just orients itself in world space. But sometimes I'd say want a road texture with a line in the middle to align with the direction of the road. How about a road constructor or track editor?
Phil.
09/04/2002 (12:27 am)
Victor, if youre talking about building interiors directly in theworld editor, I'd say it simply isnt possible right now.The process of making an interior is just too complex to shoehorn into the editor. There is the map making (which possibly you could do, but remember its CSG ops which arent that simple to get right for portalisation etc).
Then there's the lighting and collision volume creations etc.
I dont see any problem in using art assets imported from another source, as long as they look great and are easy to produce. I dont think the WC/Quark route is THAT difficult.
Phil.
BTW: editor idea's
1) Timeline, with keyframed splines for movement/actions on objects (players, camera, other stuff).
2) Terrain masks for different terrain properties (i.e. vegetation type, passability, friction setting, AI info etc).
3) Have each field have an associated real time editor (for instance, a colour field would have a colour picker, a float field would have a scroll bar. Kind of like a properties inspector from a modern programming language.
4) Ability to orient textures on the ground. i.e. normally the texture just orients itself in world space. But sometimes I'd say want a road texture with a line in the middle to align with the direction of the road. How about a road constructor or track editor?
Phil.
#15
1)For object values that are colours, a colour picker/slider would be easier to use rather than manually typing in numbers
2)Fog editing could be simpler
3)When you edit a value in an object, depending on what value it is(e.g colour, fog), the game could apply the value as a sort of preview.
4)Animated objects that when triggered perform an action (e.g move along a path)
09/04/2002 (3:53 am)
My suggestions for the editor :1)For object values that are colours, a colour picker/slider would be easier to use rather than manually typing in numbers
2)Fog editing could be simpler
3)When you edit a value in an object, depending on what value it is(e.g colour, fog), the game could apply the value as a sort of preview.
4)Animated objects that when triggered perform an action (e.g move along a path)
#16
Check out the screenshot I posted:
www.garagegames.com/mg/snapshot/view.php?qid=319
The time I spent building this area was what finally tipped me over to believing it would be highly benaficial to be able to edit buildings in engine. There are several reasons for this.
1) Time: Large levels take time to load. The one in the above snapshot takes 20+ seconds when rebuilding the lightmap. In addition there is the map2dif process, and starting the engine. All told I probably spend a couple of minutes in limbo every time I would like to check out my building against the terrain or character. Being a nitpicker, I like to check the building throughout the build process. This adds up quickly, particularly when you have as many buildings as a small city like this does.
2) Visualization: Nothing compares to being able to create your building directly in the terrain you are going to eventually have it in. Being able to create within the terrain allows me to adjust the building to fit the terrain more, instead of the opposite. I find it difficult to make precise changes to buildings I am creating in Worldcraft.
This is particularly important for roads IMHO. Laying a road texture down on the terrain is nice, and being able to rotate textures would be excellent. However, I don't believe you could achieve the same sharpness you need in things such as curbs, etc. without creating them as an object. Imagine trying to get your road seamless across a hilly terrain? Works great if you are just doing a dirt road, but don't try San Francisco.
3) Complex shapes: I can't say in regards to Quark (never did get it running right) unfortunately, but Worldcraft kills me when I try to do anything that might be considered complex. As soon as I stray away from rectangles, the errors starting piling on.
4) Newbie Friendlieness: Too many steps make for quick frustration. We fight through it, but how many do not make it?
5) Dated editors: I hate to say it, but FPS editors need to take a step forward. Quick building layout similair to architecture programs coupled with a "decor wizard" may save designers countless hours. Witness Neverwinter Nights for ease in editing. (Not saying it should be the same, but its well worth looking at.)
Basically, I don't feel that we are doing all we could be with this engine while working through outside editors. Torque has the potential to create some amazing games, but it needs the tools that will take advantage of it.
Anyway, I will still be rolling on that Mission Editor cleanup doc. After that I will be putting together one on my dream "FPS" editor. Even if it isn't possible today, it will be in the future. Might as well be ready.
Sorry for the ramble :)
Vic-D
09/04/2002 (2:44 pm)
Phil, that's exactly what I was talking about. I'm sorry to hear that it will be so difficult. I'll take your word for it, so the following is simply my reasons for wanting something like that, not an attempt to convince.Check out the screenshot I posted:
www.garagegames.com/mg/snapshot/view.php?qid=319
The time I spent building this area was what finally tipped me over to believing it would be highly benaficial to be able to edit buildings in engine. There are several reasons for this.
1) Time: Large levels take time to load. The one in the above snapshot takes 20+ seconds when rebuilding the lightmap. In addition there is the map2dif process, and starting the engine. All told I probably spend a couple of minutes in limbo every time I would like to check out my building against the terrain or character. Being a nitpicker, I like to check the building throughout the build process. This adds up quickly, particularly when you have as many buildings as a small city like this does.
2) Visualization: Nothing compares to being able to create your building directly in the terrain you are going to eventually have it in. Being able to create within the terrain allows me to adjust the building to fit the terrain more, instead of the opposite. I find it difficult to make precise changes to buildings I am creating in Worldcraft.
This is particularly important for roads IMHO. Laying a road texture down on the terrain is nice, and being able to rotate textures would be excellent. However, I don't believe you could achieve the same sharpness you need in things such as curbs, etc. without creating them as an object. Imagine trying to get your road seamless across a hilly terrain? Works great if you are just doing a dirt road, but don't try San Francisco.
3) Complex shapes: I can't say in regards to Quark (never did get it running right) unfortunately, but Worldcraft kills me when I try to do anything that might be considered complex. As soon as I stray away from rectangles, the errors starting piling on.
4) Newbie Friendlieness: Too many steps make for quick frustration. We fight through it, but how many do not make it?
5) Dated editors: I hate to say it, but FPS editors need to take a step forward. Quick building layout similair to architecture programs coupled with a "decor wizard" may save designers countless hours. Witness Neverwinter Nights for ease in editing. (Not saying it should be the same, but its well worth looking at.)
Basically, I don't feel that we are doing all we could be with this engine while working through outside editors. Torque has the potential to create some amazing games, but it needs the tools that will take advantage of it.
Anyway, I will still be rolling on that Mission Editor cleanup doc. After that I will be putting together one on my dream "FPS" editor. Even if it isn't possible today, it will be in the future. Might as well be ready.
Sorry for the ramble :)
Vic-D
#17
I agree with Stuart on the colors. I would like to see a color picker myself.
09/05/2002 (1:08 pm)
Bug: hitting f9 then f10 doesnt switch editors, instead it opens the second editor within the first. If you do this enough you can get stuck in the editors.I agree with Stuart on the colors. I would like to see a color picker myself.
#18
-Ability to import buildings etc from 3DStudio Max and other apps.
-Ability to use vertex lighting on builddings. For one, this would make curved surfaces on buildings not look faceted. For another, it could (in some specialized instances that need it) be used to make day/night cycles doable as long as you don't mind having no shadows cast.
-Multitexturing on buildings. We need to be able to use at LEAST 3 texture layers on buildings in addition to the shadowmap. Serious Sam uses this to incredible effect; you can have a large concrete texture that, when you get close, you can see is detailed all the way down to the tiniest speck in the pavement. This is necessary especially on large buidlings.
09/07/2002 (4:31 pm)
A couple of things I think Torque needs badly:-Ability to import buildings etc from 3DStudio Max and other apps.
-Ability to use vertex lighting on builddings. For one, this would make curved surfaces on buildings not look faceted. For another, it could (in some specialized instances that need it) be used to make day/night cycles doable as long as you don't mind having no shadows cast.
-Multitexturing on buildings. We need to be able to use at LEAST 3 texture layers on buildings in addition to the shadowmap. Serious Sam uses this to incredible effect; you can have a large concrete texture that, when you get close, you can see is detailed all the way down to the tiniest speck in the pavement. This is necessary especially on large buidlings.
#19
As with some of the other items mentioned here, the f10-f11 thing is not a bug, but a feature. It allows the UI creator to work with the UI of the editor. What would be nice is to be able to ESC all the way out of it to avoid confusion.
09/07/2002 (4:38 pm)
Entr0py,As with some of the other items mentioned here, the f10-f11 thing is not a bug, but a feature. It allows the UI creator to work with the UI of the editor. What would be nice is to be able to ESC all the way out of it to avoid confusion.
Torque 3D Owner Steven Lawton
1) Key to align objects to as close to terrain as possible. I seem to be spending a lot of time adjusting objects up and down as the angle i was working at the time i couldn't see the gap. See morrowind editor for reference
2) Dragging an object along an axis using the gizmo seems to be fixed, so for example from in front of the object to the right would move the object to the cameras right. If you swivel to behind the object and drag to the right then the object would move to the cameras left. A number of times i've been caught off guard by this. (not sure of technicalities of whats going on there)
If any of this has already been incorporated i apologise but i haven't touched the latest code for a while too much Real World stuff :(