Am I alone that this is confusing???

#1 Thats too bad, they were the best... Oh well, I guess the Unreal Engine took their place.

#2 I dont think Torque has ever been marketed as "point and click" game making "application".
It's an engine. There are... differences...

#3 Sorry but 1 day does not make an empire. You can't seriously of expected to master SDK in 1 day
yet alone 1 year.

"something that needs to come out of the garage". Nice constructive feedback. It's almost funny.

If you ask for a refund you don't deserve to "watch for future releases"..
RESPECT .. you should try it sometime.

#4 Its ok, for 150 bucks, you wont find a nearly complete SDK, but hey show me one with a better set of tools and a large forum collection. and trust me, its there (granted it needs to be organized and cleaned up, that point ill give anyone) But if your new to this business, go do some engine pricing.. Oblivion, the tree editor alone is 9k, good luck buddy finding a better deal with RC, or ogre or Multiverse, enjoy the licsence hooks and the lack of tools and interfaces :). This isnt supposed to be Unreal3 or a point and click interface, it will take work and a bit of know how to make it work, from the ground up. dont believe me.

www.mydreamrpg.com/community/showthread.php?t=1594 Tell me what cant be done, with torque, might want to check the other larger projects. and Vashner has some good advise. oh Vashner, btw give me a shout on MSN about the LC bit, got some laughs for you.

#5 This is a very good example of what trying the demo, reading the forums, reading the documentation, understanding the industry and competition, and applying even the tiniest bit of market research to understanding what you are buying should accomplish...but in this case did not. I'm sorry that Mr. Brubaker seemed to do none of the above before purchasing Torque. If he had asked on the forums and laid out his intentions, what he wanted in a game development suite, I and others would have pointed him in more positive directions.

We would have dissuaded him from Ogre or Irrlict or PowerRender or Cipher (which is back apparently) or other SDK or source engines. Rather, we would have pointed him to BeyondVirtual, Unity, Lawmaker, A7, or other game development suites that are more suited to what he seemed to want.

Unfortunately, he never asked and there is an unhappy customer who did not know what he was getting into.

The moral is an old one, but one that anyone that is new to the game development world and especially indie engine search should be aware of: look before you leap.

New dev's, let Brubaker be your new world Aesop.

#6 That's absurd. Go grab the Source engine and tell me it isn't just as much, if not more of a pain to work with. Granted, their documentation is better, but you'll also be paying well over 100x more for the license, so good luck. Also better really enjoy working with Hammer, because that's all you get. "SDK" says it all; that doesn't mean a photoshop for games, it means a software development kit. At no point should you have been under the impression that TGE is going to be a point and click game builder.

Anyway, I'm sure GG will help you out with the refund, but in the future I suggest doing some research before buying something. The demo version of TGE gives you full access to the script side of things, and is a perfect example of what the engine actually is. The primary benefit of buying the engine is having access to the source, and if you don't see value in having access to code for professional netcode, physics and rendering to base your project on, then this probably isn't the right product for you.

#7 Game development may not be rocket science but it can pretty damn close!

#8 No bashing here. But I wanted everyone who read this topic to remember that they should always test a package before investing in it. It may not be what they expect.

A buyer should always test a product that they are going to lay down serious development time on. Always. When people ask which 3D modeling package is "the best", I always tell them to pick up as many demos as possible and find which one fits their workflow best. For me it is Lightwave and Modo, for others it's Max or XSI or Maya. The box features on all of them look strikingly similar, as do the screenshots from amazing artists that use them as their tool of choice. But it doesn't mean that anyone can achieve art of that quality. They may not get the interface of Lightwave while they feel that Max's is intuitive.

What did you think you were getting that you did not receive? I have a few ideas where the confusion may have come into play, but I want to see where you became confused in what you were getting.

#9 I thought I was getting a development environment that was all encompassing, not modular. I thought there would be an interface that united all the features available that are described in the product description. My confusion was in thinking that it was all unified in one environment...like a 3d Max or Maya's interface. from the product page, it looks that way, but in reality, it is not. In Maya or 3dMax or Photoshop or GoLive or even Word...You don't have to leave the application to enhance or change an aspect of your project. You are there, in a defined workspace. So, essentially, I think you need a unified GUI that keeps the person grounded and makes navigation easier.

I still think that a user manual should accompany a product like this as well. Perhaps your statements could be included in that type of documentation or at the demo level? I did find some excellent resources on YouTube which were helpful in getting my game up and running in a short matter of time. Great resources! Link them to your site or even your online documentation!

Again, I am simply taking this from the perspective of the consumer. I did download the demo before purchase and went to the Orc village and so on. I did the Interactive walkthough and liked what I saw, but when it comes to actually working in the dev environment, that's were the frustration is. Not because of coding or dev experience, but from a pure user experience. A consumer. I thought the demo was just a display of capabilities, showcasing the effects, graphics and rich content that the engine has to offer. But F10, F11'ing to get to a different section or toggle to...isn't that going backwards? It's the age of rich interfaces and application design!

Looking at some other web feedback, there are others that agree (see ref.). Documentation, Support and Interface Usability lead the way in terms of needed improvements. Don't get me wrong, I am not, NOT, trying to bash the product, I would like to see it become better! And I know people that use it and love it and say, "Well, it is what it is", which is fine, but I see it as an opportunity to improve on what could be 150% bigger than it already is!

Reference: http://www.devmaster.net/engines/engine_details.php?id=3

Community support is a great thing to have, but you need to have concrete documentation behind your product so that a novice can become a pro. As you know, people will invest in the time to read documentation. The problem with community support is that people are too close to the product, they have formulated opinions, loyalties that may not always help in the face of a frustrated person/user/developer/firm...and so on. You really need to document a user manual.

I think this is more of a work in progress and it is getting there, but just needs some more attention to detail (IMHO).

Thanks again and thanks for listening.

J.

#10 @Justin

In case you haven't realized it yet, refreshing the page after posting forces you to repost.

#11 Docmentation seems to be the biggest sticking point for a lot of beginners. Personally, I started with 1.1.1 and used the PDF to see every single function that was accessible in TorqueScript. That, and having two other beginners looking at it at the same time, helped us figure things out. I appreciate the time and energy needed to push the engine forward (and the highly anticipated Torque 2) but the documentation is lagging behind. With 1.5.1 out, there are still examples written for 1.1.1 which just don't work in 1.5.1. I know for a fact that really old example code is causing headaches because 1.5.1 has different behaviour (pun intended). It's folly to rely on the community to provide so much help to TDN. It's a hobby product and not everyone has the time to figure things out and also adding it to TDN. Copying and pasting code doesn't work, it needs to be organized, simplified and not refer to other code that isn't in the examples.

Sorry you disliked it Justin. I love Torque and now that I'm not a noob, it's very nice to work with. It was getting into the engine and figuring things out with minimal examples tha hurt.

#12 FYI, your browser will continue to repost whenever you hit refresh.

also, if you're looking for a unified, interface-driven dev environment, you might want to check out dxstudio. everything is integrated in dxstudio including a visual game editor, modeling package, materials editor, sound editor, and script editor. it's not as robust an engine as torque, but it supports most of the latest features and with a nice integrated application interface.

#13 Sorry about the multiple posts!

I don't dislike it entirely and I like the technology. I am just frustrated by the initial experience. I am of the philosophy that when you put something up for sale, high level expectations should be met. User interface, user manual, navigation...those things are the meat to any saleable software item...and again, the marketing and positioning of the product online seems to present itself that way. When they are not present, then yes, it is the heavy obligation of the user to root out the answers himself/herself. But for 150 bucks, should you have to? If that is the case, tell me (consumer) upfront. Or! Wait...this could change the entire model...don't charge 150 bucks until you have published a game or have reached a certain level of usage (hours).

I won't be the last person to complain. Wait until you get an angry 12th grader that goes viral with their heartache and departed buck 50.

I would be happy to let Garage keep my $150 if they would pay a tech writer to knock out a manual.

Thanks for all the suggestions and direction.
J.

#14 The world editor is for working with missions in-game and works well for placing objects and such. But it was never intended to be a full-scale modeling application ala Max or Maya. Just like Max and Maya are not intended to be game engines. They are modeling applications. They do that very well. But your comparisons are for single-use applications, which is rather rare among game engines. There are some that do work that way (GameMaker, MultiMedia Fusion, Unity, DX Studio, Beyond Virtual, etc), but you are usually compromising expandability for usability. With game development and the variant types of projects that people come up with, it's a hard line to ride.

Torque tried to ride that line back in the day, and did it rather well for the time. Being able to edit missions in-engine is a nice feature, though you still have to compile your BSP levels. Swapping between editors with the function keys was a simple way to work, even if the editors themselves are not the most intuitive editors. I can understand wanting a richer interface, but that would require a huge amount of dev time to recreate the world editing tools around a different scope than when they were originally created. It would be nice, but it would be a very huge undertaking.

For your thoughts on an all-encompassing app, I think that only DX Studio would really fit since it has an integrated interface for modeling, scripting, and world editing all in one application. A7 is probably the next closest match, though it uses separate applications for each interface. BeyondVirtual and Unity and Sauerbraten still require the use of other applications for modeling and texturing (a 3D app like Max or Maya and a 2D app like Photoshop). Unreal and Source require other applications just like Torque and Irrlicht and Ogre. If you were a licensed developer of Unreal or Source, your team would most likely be making some C++ changes and be using Visual Studio as well.

Documentation is a long-standing issue which has gotten better, but it not near where GG would like to see it. But it's an extreme uphill battle as well. What type of manual were you expecting? Was it something similar to the Essential Guide to Torque? That is for an older version of the engine. Edward has since published a book about Torque. But was that similar to what you were looking for?

EDIT:
I see Sean beat me to DXStudio.

#15 Game engine not game maker. Learn to read before you buy.

K?

#16 Amen to that!^

#17 [--mod snip--]
Removal of post due to slight baiting.
[--mod snip--]

#18 ITS BECAUSE I WAS EXPLAINING THE ENGINE THAT I GOT THIS POST REMOVED.

Suck it up.

#19 @Justin
In some game dev circles, most especially programming ones, "game maker" is often a derisive term. Not all of us feel that way, but the denigration has its roots in "the big red button" that one presses to "make a game" That's a brief history to which Neill is referring. It is spawned from a couple of things.

1) the influx of new developers who believe that game development is easy and has simple tools to make their dreams come true.
2) elitism among programmers who resent that belief.
3) a long-time current of tools that were project specific and none-too-friendly to use in the industry, but tailored to getting the game at hand done regardless of how difficult they were to use.
4) the elitism the comes from learning a number of toolsets like number 3.

You will see this attitude especially towards "game making" systems like RPG Maker XP or GameMaker (where much of the ire comes from). You usually will not see it for larger, more powerful engines like Unity or Lawmaker.

That's short-story version of where the context of "game maker" versus "game engine" comes into play.

EDIT: Removed references to the moderated posts for the sake of keeping the flow of conversation professional.

#20 I guess I should have either posted before lunch or read before I clicked submit. In that hour I missed a whole lot.

Let's get back on-track.