Webiste, Forums and TDN one huge convaluted mess
by XanthorXIII · in Site Feedback · 11/15/2007 (10:21 am) · 18 replies
/ranton
I am finding more frustration trying to search through these forums and site for relavent information. I try to look up something but I end up somehow bringing up the old crap from 2003. Here is what I would like GG to do. Re-organize your site, forums and TDN. The site layout is good, it's the engine behind it all is not working to how it probably should be working.
I'll break it down like this
Website - Looks good and could probably run good. Try and do a search. Oh wait a second it's bringing up really old crap and non-related to your seach. Please look into fixing the search function.
TDN - Could be an extreamly useful tool however idiots can get in and make changes, leave their trash behind and don't provide useful information. Please re-organize and put some rules on it. Get a task team to review the site and do clean up and keep it organized with new/fresh data.
Forums - Seirously, I've seen better forum layouts and data management. Please do some research on this and do some serious organization. You don't need a Billion subjects for one category but you do need multiple.
Newsletters - I have not seen one newsletter in the entire time that I have been a member. I have even signed up under different email accounts for this so called Newsletter. Is it possible that a server is trashed somewhere?
/rantoff
I still look forward to using the tools from Garage Games and I do believe this was the right group to go with.
I am finding more frustration trying to search through these forums and site for relavent information. I try to look up something but I end up somehow bringing up the old crap from 2003. Here is what I would like GG to do. Re-organize your site, forums and TDN. The site layout is good, it's the engine behind it all is not working to how it probably should be working.
I'll break it down like this
Website - Looks good and could probably run good. Try and do a search. Oh wait a second it's bringing up really old crap and non-related to your seach. Please look into fixing the search function.
TDN - Could be an extreamly useful tool however idiots can get in and make changes, leave their trash behind and don't provide useful information. Please re-organize and put some rules on it. Get a task team to review the site and do clean up and keep it organized with new/fresh data.
Forums - Seirously, I've seen better forum layouts and data management. Please do some research on this and do some serious organization. You don't need a Billion subjects for one category but you do need multiple.
Newsletters - I have not seen one newsletter in the entire time that I have been a member. I have even signed up under different email accounts for this so called Newsletter. Is it possible that a server is trashed somewhere?
/rantoff
I still look forward to using the tools from Garage Games and I do believe this was the right group to go with.
About the author
It's alive!
#2
We are working on website improvements and are addressing the issues you mention right now. Specifically, first on the list is improved forums with a working search function. Web flow and design issues, TDN, an improved cart system, and other improvements will follow.
You're right about the newsletters, we've been pretty lax on that front lately. You should certainly have received several since you joined in 2004, though. Are you saying you've been signed up for them this whole time and never received a single one? I'll check the mail list if that's the case.
11/15/2007 (10:57 am)
Thanks Stephen,We are working on website improvements and are addressing the issues you mention right now. Specifically, first on the list is improved forums with a working search function. Web flow and design issues, TDN, an improved cart system, and other improvements will follow.
You're right about the newsletters, we've been pretty lax on that front lately. You should certainly have received several since you joined in 2004, though. Are you saying you've been signed up for them this whole time and never received a single one? I'll check the mail list if that's the case.
#3
11/15/2007 (12:02 pm)
Thank you for the quick reply on this. Yes I have been signed up and I have yet to actually see one show up in my mail box. It would be cool to get one. 
#4
11/15/2007 (2:44 pm)
Are they hitting your spam filters? I've received several, though they've been sparse for a while. 
#5
11/15/2007 (2:58 pm)
Where can I suscribe for such newsletter?
#6
11/15/2007 (3:08 pm)
I don't know why everyone thinks there is a problem with Spam filters. I have never had a problem with Spam Filters killing email. I use Gmail which handles my email properly.
#7
Which is why I asked. Because if you blacklisted it even once on accident, it could cause the filter to pick it up automatically.
11/16/2007 (10:11 am)
I've had a couple of problems with newsletters and forwards in GMail. They're not perfect (no spam filter can be) but they do a good job. In the last week, I've only had about two messages that were spam hit my inbox on Gmail. I haven't had very many good messages go into spam recently, though I used to get a lot more when writing FAQs for GameFAQs. That's really good, and I receive a *LOT* of mail. But I did not know if you were using a third-party spam software such as Barracuda on your mail server, wherever your host may be. Barracuda does not do so well, even if you have server-level allows for all internal servers. Spam servers are extremely finicky and I've had important internal e-mails go awry even though I have my personal filters setup correctly and the server settings are supposedly correctly. Somewhere, a message slips through the cracks.Which is why I asked. Because if you blacklisted it even once on accident, it could cause the filter to pick it up automatically.
#8
11/17/2007 (3:58 pm)
I don't believe I have ever recieved a gg newsletter... didn't know they existed!
#9
11/18/2007 (9:25 pm)
When you download a demo or a game, you have an option to receive a newsletter. I've gotten them (when they've come) on both fronts. But they are somewhat few and far between lately. 
#10
And as most in the forum, is really old stuff and not usable at all for the current engines to the general customer. A focus should actually be spent on TDN, as so much there is a total waste to click into after doing searches.
But, I assume it's the same 'ol, since T2 have been announced, theres no reason to work at TDN. The comment about the 'improved chart' is quite funny though, as it is extremely complementary to the 'feel' from the publisher role shining through these days.
11/19/2007 (12:23 am)
The newsletters are though more like a list of products based on GG's tech range thats up for sale, than they are of any use at all for developers.And as most in the forum, is really old stuff and not usable at all for the current engines to the general customer. A focus should actually be spent on TDN, as so much there is a total waste to click into after doing searches.
But, I assume it's the same 'ol, since T2 have been announced, theres no reason to work at TDN. The comment about the 'improved chart' is quite funny though, as it is extremely complementary to the 'feel' from the publisher role shining through these days.
#11
Just to reiterate once again : TDN is not something for GarageGames to "spend time on"--it's a community service we provide to you, the community, to use, or not use, as you wish.
11/19/2007 (8:07 am)
Quote:
A focus should actually be spent on TDN, as so much there is a total waste to click into after doing searches.
Just to reiterate once again : TDN is not something for GarageGames to "spend time on"--it's a community service we provide to you, the community, to use, or not use, as you wish.
#12
11/20/2007 (3:47 pm)
But that's the problem. The community does not know what it is doing with TDN. It would be a great tool if properly maintained. However it is not. Dis-information, old information, no information is what I have gotten from TDN. TDN would be better off if there were people that were working on it, that knew what they were doing with these Engines in the first place.
#13
11/21/2007 (6:52 am)
Unfortunately, I have seen this problem with most wiki's. I don't know how many times I've corrected articles or reworked articles on Wikipedia that were horribly out-of-date or incorrect...though are often sworn by. 
#14
To me, these 'wikis' are just that...a chain built with no distinct 'endPoint' or 'leadership'....
...try running a successful company, army, anything without a 'chain of command'....doomed to failure, I say. It's like Apple or Cisco saying, "ya know...you folks are sharp, we're busy....can/will you document our software/organize things for us? and do a 'good' job, please..." LOL, do you see the absurdity of that idea?
Noble idea, letting the masses do the 'heavy lifting' of documentation; again, imho, is not going to work out well without a 'driver' in the seat....you'll be left with endless pages of incorrect information.
I'll have to agree about 'old' information in TDN: I was recently working the vehicle class/object...go to look up artist and scripting information; I'm seeing very, very old Max tutorials, ripped from existing resources with seemingly old, deprecated data...that is absolutely no good, for anyone.
The Ed Maruina book came very, very close to being a very good tome of TGE TorqueScript, "this is why it's like this", and thus a fair piece of documentation...I was absolutely willing to purchase the work, at the current price, even, or more.
11/21/2007 (7:29 am)
Any chain built with no 'materLink' will fail, imho.....To me, these 'wikis' are just that...a chain built with no distinct 'endPoint' or 'leadership'....
...try running a successful company, army, anything without a 'chain of command'....doomed to failure, I say. It's like Apple or Cisco saying, "ya know...you folks are sharp, we're busy....can/will you document our software/organize things for us? and do a 'good' job, please..." LOL, do you see the absurdity of that idea?
Noble idea, letting the masses do the 'heavy lifting' of documentation; again, imho, is not going to work out well without a 'driver' in the seat....you'll be left with endless pages of incorrect information.
I'll have to agree about 'old' information in TDN: I was recently working the vehicle class/object...go to look up artist and scripting information; I'm seeing very, very old Max tutorials, ripped from existing resources with seemingly old, deprecated data...that is absolutely no good, for anyone.
The Ed Maruina book came very, very close to being a very good tome of TGE TorqueScript, "this is why it's like this", and thus a fair piece of documentation...I was absolutely willing to purchase the work, at the current price, even, or more.
#15
11/21/2007 (8:49 pm)
I thought that with IAC the funding was supposed to allow for better documentation. But now you are saying that TDN isn't going to benifit?Quote:Just to reiterate once again : TDN is not something for GarageGames to "spend time on"--it's a community service we provide to you, the community, to use, or not use, as you wish.
#16
11/22/2007 (8:05 am)
I believe it is for official documentation that ships with the engine rather than attempting to update community resources on TDN or the resource section. The documentation updates, if in a format like TGB or TorqueX should not be overly difficult to put on TDN. It would be a very time consuming measure, though. Especially in terms of updating them.
#17
TDN.. I don't even want to go there.. I'm not a huge fan of wiki style boards to begin with.. but this one really needs some overhaul. The main page shows links for things but it isn't until you drill into them that you get links that don't appear anywhere else. Of course, the info for most of the them is so out of date, why even bother showing it (I know... community supported... well - it ain't working GG).
My advice, hire some dedicated documentation folks whose job for 6 months each is to work on getting things linked properly and updated for each software version. If you look at other engine companies, they have seperate forum boards for each release... so someone using the latest doesn't need to wade through older stuff that may not work any longer unless they want/need to... and it helps keep things available for new folks who use the TDN more than the experienced programmers who should be keeping it up.
Just my 2cents... you have some good products here.. but the whole things is just all over the place.
12/15/2007 (6:20 am)
I totally agree with this thread.. the whole website in general is very disjointed... For example, you have forums listed at the top of the website.. great. So, I click there and get a list of boards.. but no product boards show up. So, then I go to the product page and click forums and get the product forums.. why?TDN.. I don't even want to go there.. I'm not a huge fan of wiki style boards to begin with.. but this one really needs some overhaul. The main page shows links for things but it isn't until you drill into them that you get links that don't appear anywhere else. Of course, the info for most of the them is so out of date, why even bother showing it (I know... community supported... well - it ain't working GG).
My advice, hire some dedicated documentation folks whose job for 6 months each is to work on getting things linked properly and updated for each software version. If you look at other engine companies, they have seperate forum boards for each release... so someone using the latest doesn't need to wade through older stuff that may not work any longer unless they want/need to... and it helps keep things available for new folks who use the TDN more than the experienced programmers who should be keeping it up.
Just my 2cents... you have some good products here.. but the whole things is just all over the place.
#18
Solving the documentation problem is only solving one part of the equation (and it's a huge part). People are working on documentation. Documentation is a problem among most engine companies, unfortunately. But engines like Unity have designed and brought and engine to the mainstream which required strong documentation as part of their charter. But Unity was lucky in that it was created from scratch with that in mind. And they've done a great job. Other engines such as C4 also have strong API documentation or tutorials (say, BeyondVirtual, which seems mostly dead as of late). Trying to back-document engine versions is a nightmare. Back documentation is a nightmare anyway, which is why there are companies that make their millions doing just that.
Though very few have multiple version forums. That's a rather extreme rarity, than I believe PlayBasic (perhaps it was OmniBasic) and a few others have. But most do not. It might be an interesting way to go, but the two latest versions will garner the majority of the traffic. Perhaps after those two, the forums could be locked so they would be searchable but not cause undue conversation. But then I'm against that because I've found problems in engines that are years old and like to be able to dredge up those old documents and talk to the people who had those problems.
12/15/2007 (9:53 am)
I think that a major part of why it is disjointed is that features were added during an evolution, and those features now are common in integrated CMS software suites. But when GG was working through this site, CMS suites were expensive, laden with bugs, or constantly under security siege. Now a number of the problems with CMS and portal software is fixed and there are robust open-source variants. There are still commercial packages, but the OS versions are often just as feature-rich and secure. But there's a ton of information that has to move into something like that, and anyone who has ever made an enterprise change like this knows that it is huge. It's not as simple as installing Joomla and clicking import. I wish it were. It would make my dayjob so much easier!Solving the documentation problem is only solving one part of the equation (and it's a huge part). People are working on documentation. Documentation is a problem among most engine companies, unfortunately. But engines like Unity have designed and brought and engine to the mainstream which required strong documentation as part of their charter. But Unity was lucky in that it was created from scratch with that in mind. And they've done a great job. Other engines such as C4 also have strong API documentation or tutorials (say, BeyondVirtual, which seems mostly dead as of late). Trying to back-document engine versions is a nightmare. Back documentation is a nightmare anyway, which is why there are companies that make their millions doing just that.
Though very few have multiple version forums. That's a rather extreme rarity, than I believe PlayBasic (perhaps it was OmniBasic) and a few others have. But most do not. It might be an interesting way to go, but the two latest versions will garner the majority of the traffic. Perhaps after those two, the forums could be locked so they would be searchable but not cause undue conversation. But then I'm against that because I've found problems in engines that are years old and like to be able to dredge up those old documents and talk to the people who had those problems.
Torque 3D Owner Donald "Yadot" Harris
Marveloper
In the mean time if you are having issues finding something... then make a post about that and the community will be glad to help