Picking up objects and its problems
by Eli McClanahan · in General Discussion · 08/24/2002 (3:04 am) · 13 replies
In Realm Wars, we're going to have a multitude of various in-game variables that will need to be resolved. In most games, the result is spawnable objects that you can pick up and use.
Things like:
*Weapons
*Spell-enhancers (scrolls)
*Enchantment objects (for use on equipment)
I have some a few problems with this. For one, how do these objects get there? Soldiers don't just throw weapons on the battlefield beforehand. Some areas of the planet (deserts for example) won't have the same natural environment, and thus some objects won't make sense either. Also, the idea of respawning a player is doable. We've already developed one or two reasons for this in the plot, if anyone ever bothers to wonder about such things. But the idea of weapons, scrolls and keys, etc. reappearing into reality is really stretching it. It seems almost appropriate with games based in the future, but in RW, a medieval game, it seems rather contrived.
Personally, I'd like to see the game distance itself from running over objects, aside from objects dropped by players.
Some ideas:
-Weapons-
How do we change our weapons? Do we find ones on the ground, or do we spawn with the equipment we select? A lot of people may want to change their weapons and/or armor in the midst of battle, but how do we do this without reappearing magic crossbows and daggers? It takes time to find these things, especially with our class system - if you find a weapon, there's no guarantee you can wield it. We can resolve this several way, but the most feasible and desireable IMO is creating them based on your player. This has been suggested as a possibility by giving the player gold and letting him buy weapons. I'm rather against this, simply because it doesn't make sense for an army to not equip their soldiers unless they pay them.
Rather, I'd like to see something like this: You select a weapon(s) to spawn with. These type of weapons will always be basic combat weapons. In other words, they're low in power and maybe a little bulky, or whatever depending on your race and class. Now, when you die, you drop that weapon.
Another player, friend or foe, can then pick up these pieces. (No running over it, as that would be too easy for its purpose. You should have to stop for at least three seconds, possily on the press of the action button.) If you don't use the action button, you just grab the weapon normally, ready to use. You can carry about five components at a time (maybe carrying five makes you heavier and slower, while carrying only one or none changes nothing.)
You can then add one of these components to your weapon to make it stronger. Weapons will be simple to add to, with only one component being necessary for an upgrade. To make it easy to use, even for a new player, your weapon loadout will match itself up with your component loadout. Say, you hit a button or look on-screen at your components (however they'd be displayed.) All of them are greyed out except for the one or two that can be added to the weapon you're using. Use that component, and you attach it to your weapon, making it a new type of weapon. Of course, the basic class of the weapon (ax, sword, dagger) will always be the same as what your character can use. This new weapon can also be changed. Each component replaced, added to, or taken away results in a different type of that weapon class.
Say, I spawn with a crossbow. I kill someone with a sword. I then use the hilt's metal to increase the length the wire can be drawn back, which increases its power but weighs it down a little. That gives me a new siegebow. I then kill someone who has a staff. I use the wire from my siegebow and put it on the staff. I now have a bow. I then kill someone who's carrying a knife. I remove the handle from my knife and use it to strengthen my bow. I now have a longbow. The weapon will always be its original class, but will be different.
It's relatively simple, stops people from camping at spawn areas, involves a degree of judgment but ease of use, and isn't limited by score. If you don't like the result of this change, just switch your components back to what they were. More experienced players can look for an enemy that has something they want, kill him, and make whatever type of weapon they want, yet new players can kill and build weapons just as easily, although they won't know what makes what. If they make a mistake of creating a spear when they wanted a knife, they can just undo it.
To make it as simple as possible, components will probably just be general things like bolts, metal shards, wire and things like that. There'd probably be about five or so different types of components, just to avoid confusion. A bolt could come from a crossbow, knife, or plenty of other things. In reality, making a new weapon is a pretty sure possibility after killing anyone with just about anything. Hope all that talking about it didn't make it seem confusing. :p
On a side note, I think it'd be neat if you could customize the appearance of your weapon the longer you play the game. Say, you can add runic scripts on the blade of your sword, or change the color of your arrows. It doesn't affect gameplay, but it's eye candy.
-Scrolls-
Once more, how are scrolls going to be scattered about a battlefield? Once more, learning spells should be left for personal use, and not to scrolls. Personally, I'd want to see the time system used, which would obliterate the whole idea of upgrading spells.
-Equipment Enhancers-
To make your armor stronger, or to recover its damaged areas, you can either pick up items, use spells, or fall back on those 5 basic pieces of all equipment again. Just find some shards of metal and it's as good as new. Things like gems I can understand, if they come from a mine or something. Just finding them lying around is nonsense. Even with the mine, you'd get people staking it out for easy kills.
As you can tell, I'm all for player-interaction. I've never liked running over objects and picking them up, as the idea seems ludicrous to me. To me, games that are very simple and don't involve any customization while in-game are ideal. Such an example is Starsiege. (A mech-like game.) The only in-game variables are heal and ammo pads. Everything else is customized in the lobby. You don't pick up anything on the map at all.
Things like:
*Weapons
*Spell-enhancers (scrolls)
*Enchantment objects (for use on equipment)
I have some a few problems with this. For one, how do these objects get there? Soldiers don't just throw weapons on the battlefield beforehand. Some areas of the planet (deserts for example) won't have the same natural environment, and thus some objects won't make sense either. Also, the idea of respawning a player is doable. We've already developed one or two reasons for this in the plot, if anyone ever bothers to wonder about such things. But the idea of weapons, scrolls and keys, etc. reappearing into reality is really stretching it. It seems almost appropriate with games based in the future, but in RW, a medieval game, it seems rather contrived.
Personally, I'd like to see the game distance itself from running over objects, aside from objects dropped by players.
Some ideas:
-Weapons-
How do we change our weapons? Do we find ones on the ground, or do we spawn with the equipment we select? A lot of people may want to change their weapons and/or armor in the midst of battle, but how do we do this without reappearing magic crossbows and daggers? It takes time to find these things, especially with our class system - if you find a weapon, there's no guarantee you can wield it. We can resolve this several way, but the most feasible and desireable IMO is creating them based on your player. This has been suggested as a possibility by giving the player gold and letting him buy weapons. I'm rather against this, simply because it doesn't make sense for an army to not equip their soldiers unless they pay them.
Rather, I'd like to see something like this: You select a weapon(s) to spawn with. These type of weapons will always be basic combat weapons. In other words, they're low in power and maybe a little bulky, or whatever depending on your race and class. Now, when you die, you drop that weapon.
Another player, friend or foe, can then pick up these pieces. (No running over it, as that would be too easy for its purpose. You should have to stop for at least three seconds, possily on the press of the action button.) If you don't use the action button, you just grab the weapon normally, ready to use. You can carry about five components at a time (maybe carrying five makes you heavier and slower, while carrying only one or none changes nothing.)
You can then add one of these components to your weapon to make it stronger. Weapons will be simple to add to, with only one component being necessary for an upgrade. To make it easy to use, even for a new player, your weapon loadout will match itself up with your component loadout. Say, you hit a button or look on-screen at your components (however they'd be displayed.) All of them are greyed out except for the one or two that can be added to the weapon you're using. Use that component, and you attach it to your weapon, making it a new type of weapon. Of course, the basic class of the weapon (ax, sword, dagger) will always be the same as what your character can use. This new weapon can also be changed. Each component replaced, added to, or taken away results in a different type of that weapon class.
Say, I spawn with a crossbow. I kill someone with a sword. I then use the hilt's metal to increase the length the wire can be drawn back, which increases its power but weighs it down a little. That gives me a new siegebow. I then kill someone who has a staff. I use the wire from my siegebow and put it on the staff. I now have a bow. I then kill someone who's carrying a knife. I remove the handle from my knife and use it to strengthen my bow. I now have a longbow. The weapon will always be its original class, but will be different.
It's relatively simple, stops people from camping at spawn areas, involves a degree of judgment but ease of use, and isn't limited by score. If you don't like the result of this change, just switch your components back to what they were. More experienced players can look for an enemy that has something they want, kill him, and make whatever type of weapon they want, yet new players can kill and build weapons just as easily, although they won't know what makes what. If they make a mistake of creating a spear when they wanted a knife, they can just undo it.
To make it as simple as possible, components will probably just be general things like bolts, metal shards, wire and things like that. There'd probably be about five or so different types of components, just to avoid confusion. A bolt could come from a crossbow, knife, or plenty of other things. In reality, making a new weapon is a pretty sure possibility after killing anyone with just about anything. Hope all that talking about it didn't make it seem confusing. :p
On a side note, I think it'd be neat if you could customize the appearance of your weapon the longer you play the game. Say, you can add runic scripts on the blade of your sword, or change the color of your arrows. It doesn't affect gameplay, but it's eye candy.
-Scrolls-
Once more, how are scrolls going to be scattered about a battlefield? Once more, learning spells should be left for personal use, and not to scrolls. Personally, I'd want to see the time system used, which would obliterate the whole idea of upgrading spells.
-Equipment Enhancers-
To make your armor stronger, or to recover its damaged areas, you can either pick up items, use spells, or fall back on those 5 basic pieces of all equipment again. Just find some shards of metal and it's as good as new. Things like gems I can understand, if they come from a mine or something. Just finding them lying around is nonsense. Even with the mine, you'd get people staking it out for easy kills.
As you can tell, I'm all for player-interaction. I've never liked running over objects and picking them up, as the idea seems ludicrous to me. To me, games that are very simple and don't involve any customization while in-game are ideal. Such an example is Starsiege. (A mech-like game.) The only in-game variables are heal and ammo pads. Everything else is customized in the lobby. You don't pick up anything on the map at all.
#2
I thought about smithing areas too, but there's one problem with that: some maps may not have them. I wouldn't want every map to look the same just to balance gameplay. Mapmakers won't like having to place objects standard in their maps (some may just be deserts in the middle of nowhere.) Besides, in most games, you can just run across a weapon and pick it up, so people won't like having to walk back to base to get a new weapon type.
I think the weapon interchange system should be left up to the player to do at any time, but should be easy enough so that it takes time to do, but is easy enough of a system to complete. After all, all the weapons should be even with one another in balance, so just changing them shouldn't be a difficult task.
I'm not saying rule out certain areas that can be helpful, like mines and such (specific locations would be better than just spawn points for individual resources). But, we can't rely on them or anything.
Now, how to do all that I don't know.
08/24/2002 (2:51 pm)
Yeah, I didn't like my own idea either; I just gave a basic example to try to further someone else's thoughts. :D I thought about smithing areas too, but there's one problem with that: some maps may not have them. I wouldn't want every map to look the same just to balance gameplay. Mapmakers won't like having to place objects standard in their maps (some may just be deserts in the middle of nowhere.) Besides, in most games, you can just run across a weapon and pick it up, so people won't like having to walk back to base to get a new weapon type.
I think the weapon interchange system should be left up to the player to do at any time, but should be easy enough so that it takes time to do, but is easy enough of a system to complete. After all, all the weapons should be even with one another in balance, so just changing them shouldn't be a difficult task.
I'm not saying rule out certain areas that can be helpful, like mines and such (specific locations would be better than just spawn points for individual resources). But, we can't rely on them or anything.
Now, how to do all that I don't know.
#3
In a game like Quake or Unreal there are something like 10 weapons total, and everyone can use any of them. In Realm Wars you might have one character who can use a couple kinds of staffs, a character who uses axes and swords, another who uses a bow and a warhammer, etc. If we were to just have all these weapons lying around it would become a scavenger hunt to find a suitable one.
08/24/2002 (7:28 pm)
The idea of scattering weapons around does not appeal to me either and also does not work logistically when you consider the fact that many classes will be resticted in weapon use and have different weapons.In a game like Quake or Unreal there are something like 10 weapons total, and everyone can use any of them. In Realm Wars you might have one character who can use a couple kinds of staffs, a character who uses axes and swords, another who uses a bow and a warhammer, etc. If we were to just have all these weapons lying around it would become a scavenger hunt to find a suitable one.
#4
Now, all players will have a basic spawn weapon to use for basic combat. Will this weapon be the weakest of them? (Like the T2 blaster or the UT pressure-thingy [whatever that thing is].) Or will this weapon just be one of many you can choose from? I prefer the second option, as I don't cherish the idea of having to acheive a goal to get a decent weapon each time I spawn.
Using this notion, people will only want to change weapons when a new situation arises. Say, you have a sword and come upon the enemy base, which is full of enemies that won't come out. You decide to back up and fire inside their base with a crossbow. Now, how do you get this weapon? We don't want to have to make our player search for one, and we don't want him to have to go back to an armory to get one in every map he plays in, especially if the bases are far away or if it's a DM, etc. So how are we going to get this poor boy a crossbow?
Magically switching weapons is very open-ended, but not very realistic. It's more like copping out of a good explanation more than anything.
Assembling weapons can be done, but the process of assembling them using basic parts can be unrealistic.
We also have to remember that this has to be able to be done on DMs as well, which means no help from anyone but yourself.
There are a few options:
*Make it part of customization - you can carry up to two weapons, as long as they don't go over a mass limit (one XL weapon, one L weapon, one M weapon and one S weapon, or two S weapons) You can then switch between these two basic weapons. Weaker long range weapons would be "S" sized weapons, allowing you to use them when your M short-range weapon can't cut it. L and XL weapons would be more powerful, but would slow you down, or possibly keep you from using a shield.
*Use the pick-up and throw-down method. The only way to change weapons is to find a player with the one you want, kill him and take it. OR to trade with another friendly player. Armories would be useful here, as you could have one person making trips to and from the armory, handing out weapons to his troops that don't need to be leaving the battlefield. Of course, the problem here is that another player may never have the weapon you want, and an armory won't always be around.
*Components: you can carry one weapon, and one piece of a weapon (that's compatible with the one you have). When you want to change a weapon, you take off a piece of your current one and attach the secondary piece, making a weapon that resembles the one you had, but is different in how it works. The problem here is that to make it realistic, the range of weapons you can make depends largely on your original weapon, disallowing a change from say, a sword to a staff. You would have to once again kill another player and pick and choose from the three pieces he leaves behind of which one you want to use.
Really, I can't think of a good way to do this that won't seem like copping out, but at the same time will be functional enough to be fun.
08/24/2002 (8:02 pm)
Yeah, I got to thinking about it after reading your documentation. (Good work, BTW.)Now, all players will have a basic spawn weapon to use for basic combat. Will this weapon be the weakest of them? (Like the T2 blaster or the UT pressure-thingy [whatever that thing is].) Or will this weapon just be one of many you can choose from? I prefer the second option, as I don't cherish the idea of having to acheive a goal to get a decent weapon each time I spawn.
Using this notion, people will only want to change weapons when a new situation arises. Say, you have a sword and come upon the enemy base, which is full of enemies that won't come out. You decide to back up and fire inside their base with a crossbow. Now, how do you get this weapon? We don't want to have to make our player search for one, and we don't want him to have to go back to an armory to get one in every map he plays in, especially if the bases are far away or if it's a DM, etc. So how are we going to get this poor boy a crossbow?
Magically switching weapons is very open-ended, but not very realistic. It's more like copping out of a good explanation more than anything.
Assembling weapons can be done, but the process of assembling them using basic parts can be unrealistic.
We also have to remember that this has to be able to be done on DMs as well, which means no help from anyone but yourself.
There are a few options:
*Make it part of customization - you can carry up to two weapons, as long as they don't go over a mass limit (one XL weapon, one L weapon, one M weapon and one S weapon, or two S weapons) You can then switch between these two basic weapons. Weaker long range weapons would be "S" sized weapons, allowing you to use them when your M short-range weapon can't cut it. L and XL weapons would be more powerful, but would slow you down, or possibly keep you from using a shield.
*Use the pick-up and throw-down method. The only way to change weapons is to find a player with the one you want, kill him and take it. OR to trade with another friendly player. Armories would be useful here, as you could have one person making trips to and from the armory, handing out weapons to his troops that don't need to be leaving the battlefield. Of course, the problem here is that another player may never have the weapon you want, and an armory won't always be around.
*Components: you can carry one weapon, and one piece of a weapon (that's compatible with the one you have). When you want to change a weapon, you take off a piece of your current one and attach the secondary piece, making a weapon that resembles the one you had, but is different in how it works. The problem here is that to make it realistic, the range of weapons you can make depends largely on your original weapon, disallowing a change from say, a sword to a staff. You would have to once again kill another player and pick and choose from the three pieces he leaves behind of which one you want to use.
Really, I can't think of a good way to do this that won't seem like copping out, but at the same time will be functional enough to be fun.
#5
But respawning items, no no, bad idea. First off, not going to happen. Second, use another way .... be creative and figure out how to get more weapons, and try to aim for a current life situation. Make it so that when you buy something from a shop the item will ship in at a later date or something. And if you pick up an item off the ground ... well .. so sorry, too bad for the next person hoping it was there :/.
08/24/2002 (8:22 pm)
well, we are currently working on a game ourselves, being a medieval game itself, and I myself have thought about this as well. Sticking a FEW items maybe in bushes or something might be ok, just put a few bones next to it ;). Or you can stick a bunch in shelves in a shop, which might promote thievery (which i'm not against exactly). Theivery creates almost an excitement, and well, a goal in a game, which is good.But respawning items, no no, bad idea. First off, not going to happen. Second, use another way .... be creative and figure out how to get more weapons, and try to aim for a current life situation. Make it so that when you buy something from a shop the item will ship in at a later date or something. And if you pick up an item off the ground ... well .. so sorry, too bad for the next person hoping it was there :/.
#6
- players spawn
- you have orcs in a fantasy world, its not a strive for a real-life epxerience
- players are used to it, they don't find it to be disturbing the gaming experience.
=> it doesn't harm the player immersion.
If you want to make avoid having spawned items look out of place, don't use shiny particles around the items, just have em sit there.
08/25/2002 (4:55 am)
Spawning objects work fine because:- players spawn
- you have orcs in a fantasy world, its not a strive for a real-life epxerience
- players are used to it, they don't find it to be disturbing the gaming experience.
=> it doesn't harm the player immersion.
If you want to make avoid having spawned items look out of place, don't use shiny particles around the items, just have em sit there.
#7
Lets take a look at a few.
Armourer: This guy displays all the weapons for a given race/class combo. You can "buy/get" weapons/armour here.
Healer: Basic medical services. perhaps combined as a cleric to relieve DOT spells.
Beastmaster: Allows the selection of "beasts" for various vehicles
(question, do we have economy of any kind? do we have buying? do we have resource usage?).
Those are a few, we could have more "seigemasters" etc.
This also ties in well with an idea stefan had for my help system. Basically, at the start of a game when youre new, an NPC will come up to you and teach you the basics of the game. Lets call him a tutor.
I'd prefer to have weapon upgrades come from a friendly spell.
Phil.
08/25/2002 (7:29 am)
Personally, I'm far far more in favour of NPC craftsmen. Basically, we can make a bunch of different NPC's that act as different resources.Lets take a look at a few.
Armourer: This guy displays all the weapons for a given race/class combo. You can "buy/get" weapons/armour here.
Healer: Basic medical services. perhaps combined as a cleric to relieve DOT spells.
Beastmaster: Allows the selection of "beasts" for various vehicles
(question, do we have economy of any kind? do we have buying? do we have resource usage?).
Those are a few, we could have more "seigemasters" etc.
This also ties in well with an idea stefan had for my help system. Basically, at the start of a game when youre new, an NPC will come up to you and teach you the basics of the game. Lets call him a tutor.
I'd prefer to have weapon upgrades come from a friendly spell.
Phil.
#8
The way this is going RW will never see the daylight. Features have to be kept to a minimum in order to get the priorities straight, and something useable out of the beta door. Once that is accomplished, the fancy stuff like NPCs can be taken care of.
08/25/2002 (8:21 am)
Why not go simple spawn for the first release, and add the NPCs to a post-release patch milestone.The way this is going RW will never see the daylight. Features have to be kept to a minimum in order to get the priorities straight, and something useable out of the beta door. Once that is accomplished, the fancy stuff like NPCs can be taken care of.
#9
08/25/2002 (12:39 pm)
You could make NPC's just animated models. Make them have a trigger. when you walk up to them, send a client command or something to open up the merchants inventory and barter screen. Send a server command to get what is available in the merchants inventory.
#10
08/25/2002 (1:37 pm)
exactly what i'm doing lol ... *conceals code*
#11
I agree with phil, some sort of NPC system is probably better, however we have to avoid the overcrowding problem, so maybe an area round the NPC works as a "shop" instead of the individual themselves.
08/25/2002 (6:16 pm)
Why not make the NPCs for the initial release, there seems little point in creating one type of feel to only replace it later.I agree with phil, some sort of NPC system is probably better, however we have to avoid the overcrowding problem, so maybe an area round the NPC works as a "shop" instead of the individual themselves.
#12
08/27/2002 (4:55 am)
Could someone elaborate on the NPC system? I get the jist of it, but I haven't dealt with it before.
#13
You go to the wizard in the base and get it enchanted with flame (cliche I know) this costs X (It has to cost something maybe just time).
You then go to the blacksmith and decide which weapon to bind the gem to, this costs something again, you then have a sword of flame.
On the battlefield if you are then killed the person who killed you can take your sword (even if they can't use it), get their blacksmith to remove the gem, at cost, and affix it to their weapon
08/27/2002 (6:47 am)
Your team has captured a mine to the northwest of the map, you go to the mine and take a gem.You go to the wizard in the base and get it enchanted with flame (cliche I know) this costs X (It has to cost something maybe just time).
You then go to the blacksmith and decide which weapon to bind the gem to, this costs something again, you then have a sword of flame.
On the battlefield if you are then killed the person who killed you can take your sword (even if they can't use it), get their blacksmith to remove the gem, at cost, and affix it to their weapon
Torque Owner Owen "WDA" Ashcroft
Personally I think there should be some method of enhancing your weapons, whether it be by a member of your team, or back at base, or both, I feel that adding bits of a sword to a crossbow to improve it really just simply doesn't mesh at all well.
I also dislike the idea of scattering stuff over the battlefield, it just doesn't really make sense, if you want to change weapons you should have to return to an armourer npc at base and get new weapons off him, possibly trade points for upgrades and so on, perhaps you could collect enemy skulls, takes a second or 2 to remove the enemies head, and you use that as a sort of currency? But I really don't like scattered weapons or powerups, because as you said people don't go out before and dump weapons.
Perhaps some random spawns, or places you can control that will provide weapons upgrades, like shrines.
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Thinking about it the only way I could see your system working is if you collected the item, went back to base, handed your weapon to a blacksmith who bound the new components onto the weapons creating a new weapon, which means that you simply couldn't fight your way to the enemy base and have an uber-weapon when you got there, you would have to make a few trips back "home" to get the new weapon created
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Actually I quite like the idea of allowing there to be controllable objects, such as mines, that don't directly relate the the mission or task or objective of the map, but give an advantage to their holder.