Buggy - Any Fixes
by Rik Dodsworth · in Torque X 2D · 09/24/2007 (6:33 am) · 23 replies
Are there any planned fixes for TX & TXB. its easily noticable that TX and TXB could potentially offer an invaluable resource for getting games built.. the concept is amazing. yet the tools lack any sort of testing at all. i can crash the TXB no problem, and the bugs with the scrolling, expanding an item and having to scroll to find it couple with a couple of other minor anoyances render the Builder useless to me. it takes me more time to work around the tweaks than edit the xml file myself.
I see that you seem to have devoted all your time to the 3D engine and left the 2D engine in the dust to rot. this is not good for wanting to use it in the hope it may get fixed before i release, but this doesnt look like the case. it seems to me 2D is no longer on your agenda and no fixes are planned for the 2D engine.
I also read in the license that i cannot write a tool to work with the Engine, does this mean i couldnt write a TXB style tool but still using your framework?
my team & Myself and a lot of the community i speak to feel let down by the abandonment of TXB & TX 2D.
If this isnt going to change any time soon then we have no option but to consider an alternative.
I dont for 1 second think that that statement will make a difference, as i got it for free with my CC membership anyway so i assume you would ignore any comments made by people such as myself.
HOwever, had TXB worked properly i would of been very very interested in purchase Torque360, and the full blown Torque Engine and some starter kits looked appealing. but until i believe TXB has a future i wont be spending any more time with it, and by the time your 3d Engine is released i will be well underway working with my new engine.
Its unfortunate but i can be added to a growing list of people/teams abandoning the TXB all together due to apparent lack of commitment from GarageGames
I see that you seem to have devoted all your time to the 3D engine and left the 2D engine in the dust to rot. this is not good for wanting to use it in the hope it may get fixed before i release, but this doesnt look like the case. it seems to me 2D is no longer on your agenda and no fixes are planned for the 2D engine.
I also read in the license that i cannot write a tool to work with the Engine, does this mean i couldnt write a TXB style tool but still using your framework?
my team & Myself and a lot of the community i speak to feel let down by the abandonment of TXB & TX 2D.
If this isnt going to change any time soon then we have no option but to consider an alternative.
I dont for 1 second think that that statement will make a difference, as i got it for free with my CC membership anyway so i assume you would ignore any comments made by people such as myself.
HOwever, had TXB worked properly i would of been very very interested in purchase Torque360, and the full blown Torque Engine and some starter kits looked appealing. but until i believe TXB has a future i wont be spending any more time with it, and by the time your 3d Engine is released i will be well underway working with my new engine.
Its unfortunate but i can be added to a growing list of people/teams abandoning the TXB all together due to apparent lack of commitment from GarageGames
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#2
09/24/2007 (7:05 am)
Torque 360 is a completely different beast than TorqueX. First off, it is a C++ engine based off of TGEA (one of the 3D engines), and secondly it also requires a development agreement with Microsoft and an official MS DevKit. It is something that is well beyond the financial means of many CC members. TorqueX 3D is, however, an XNA compliant engine that is in development.
#3
my statement you quoted may of been a bit harsh so apologies for that but i just feel really let down by what appears to be an abandonned project.
I do not have an issue with posting items to a forum if i believe i will get a valid response, like with many forums you get silly replies just so the poster can have an extra 1 next to his number of posts., if however i post loads of problems and get zero or useless replies i will do my upmost to make sure everyone i have dealings with through the day to see these posts. this would not do your credibility any good. if im proved wrong by receiving worthy responses then i will post back here with an official apology but the current treatment given to the posters isnt something i wanted to entertain.
I will post my issues and lets see the response.
however you cannot deny that this software has issues, all software does, but some of the issues in TXB that have been rissen many times in these forums and many other forums i go on go un adressed due to time being spent on other things at garagegames.
09/24/2007 (7:14 am)
I have been very reluctent to post bugs due to the lack of response you have been giving other people. many posts appear to pass on the problem to the end user rather than knowing any resolution to it. my paticular main gripes have already been posted by others with no solution. if you would like me to post my bugs so that you can tell me your not working on it then i will be happy to do so but it will only increase my frustration. i just felt it to have no merit after seeing many other posters getting similar answers about not working on this project.my statement you quoted may of been a bit harsh so apologies for that but i just feel really let down by what appears to be an abandonned project.
I do not have an issue with posting items to a forum if i believe i will get a valid response, like with many forums you get silly replies just so the poster can have an extra 1 next to his number of posts., if however i post loads of problems and get zero or useless replies i will do my upmost to make sure everyone i have dealings with through the day to see these posts. this would not do your credibility any good. if im proved wrong by receiving worthy responses then i will post back here with an official apology but the current treatment given to the posters isnt something i wanted to entertain.
I will post my issues and lets see the response.
however you cannot deny that this software has issues, all software does, but some of the issues in TXB that have been rissen many times in these forums and many other forums i go on go un adressed due to time being spent on other things at garagegames.
#4
i know exacly what Torque 360 and its far from being beyond my financial means.. please do not assume i am merely a bedroom coder due to my lack of forums posts.
09/24/2007 (7:15 am)
Quote:Torque 360 is a completely different beast than TorqueX. First off, it is a C++ engine based off of TGEA (one of the 3D engines), and secondly it also requires a development agreement with Microsoft and an official MS DevKit. It is something that is well beyond the financial means of many CC members. TorqueX 3D is, however, an XNA compliant engine that is in development
i know exacly what Torque 360 and its far from being beyond my financial means.. please do not assume i am merely a bedroom coder due to my lack of forums posts.
#5
I have no idea where you get this "post count" mentality from the GG forums, though. A number of other forums, I can easily see it since there's some sort of post honor system or something (levels according to number of posts are popular on a number of forums, though they often lead to forum spam among new users trying to gain prominence in a community through some level moniker rather than relevant posting information). GG forums are not set up this way. In fact, I don't know if anyone here ever cares how many topics they've made or how many posts here since it is hidden away on the profiles and has no real relevance.
09/24/2007 (7:34 am)
It has nothing to do with the amount of posting, and I have absolutely no idea where that very strange idea even came from. It has to do with the basics of people who have CC memberships and have no way to fund an official SDK or the means to make a dev slot. If you have a studio with $30k for licensing and much more than that for development, that is fine. But simple research should show that there is not a transition point from TorqueX to Torque360 as they are completely separate technologies with a completely different underlying source base, technology base, and concept-base. The only thing that makes them similar is that they can be deployed to at 360 through extremely different means.I have no idea where you get this "post count" mentality from the GG forums, though. A number of other forums, I can easily see it since there's some sort of post honor system or something (levels according to number of posts are popular on a number of forums, though they often lead to forum spam among new users trying to gain prominence in a community through some level moniker rather than relevant posting information). GG forums are not set up this way. In fact, I don't know if anyone here ever cares how many topics they've made or how many posts here since it is hidden away on the profiles and has no real relevance.
#6
i shouldnt need to post to get a good idea of how the forums are run.
and in terms of the financial aspect of Torque. i do realise how much dev kits cost, i also understand what is required to get games published. yet because i chose to try out the TXB i got free with my CC membership and found it had potential for use with casual games you instantly assume i must be just doing this for fun out of my pocket. as said before, do not assume im merely a trialist under any cercumstances, up until my dismisal of the project, Torque360 was certainly something on the agenda for my team. and there is no reason why i still wouldnt give it some more thought if the comitment back to the projects continued, as currently it seems the commitment is in one area.
09/24/2007 (7:43 am)
Well the reply from the member of staff stated how can i have an opinion on something if i havnt posted.. i can have an opinion because i can observe without having to post. i totally agree that new posters try to get their cred up by posting loads at the start.. i cant be bothered. i want to work not talk to you people all day, but if i need you then i will post. generally i find on forums if its not been posted already your probably doing it the wrong way. if its an actual problem someone would of already found it. i post very little on forums yet i use them extensivly. So i quickly assumed you had the same mentality as the employee who said Quote:Until today, you haven't made any comments at all, so why would you think this?
i shouldnt need to post to get a good idea of how the forums are run.
and in terms of the financial aspect of Torque. i do realise how much dev kits cost, i also understand what is required to get games published. yet because i chose to try out the TXB i got free with my CC membership and found it had potential for use with casual games you instantly assume i must be just doing this for fun out of my pocket. as said before, do not assume im merely a trialist under any cercumstances, up until my dismisal of the project, Torque360 was certainly something on the agenda for my team. and there is no reason why i still wouldnt give it some more thought if the comitment back to the projects continued, as currently it seems the commitment is in one area.
#7
i shouldnt need to post to get a good idea of how the forums are run.
and in terms of the financial aspect of Torque. i do realise how much dev kits cost, i also understand what is required to get games published. yet because i chose to try out the TXB i got free with my CC membership and found it had potential for use with casual games you instantly assume i must be just doing this for fun out of my pocket. as said before, do not assume im merely a trialist under any cercumstances, up until my dismisal of the project, Torque360 was certainly something on the agenda for my team. and there is no reason why i still wouldnt give it some more thought if the comitment back to the projects continued, as currently it seems the commitment is in one area.
09/24/2007 (7:49 am)
Well the reply from the member of staff stated how can i have an opinion on something if i havnt posted.. i can have an opinion because i can observe without having to post. i totally agree that new posters try to get their cred up by posting loads at the start.. i cant be bothered. i want to work not talk to you people all day, but if i need you then i will post. generally i find on forums if its not been posted already your probably doing it the wrong way. if its an actual problem someone would of already found it. i post very little on forums yet i use them extensivly. So i quickly assumed you had the same mentality as the employee who said Quote:Until today, you haven't made any comments at all, so why would you think this?
i shouldnt need to post to get a good idea of how the forums are run.
and in terms of the financial aspect of Torque. i do realise how much dev kits cost, i also understand what is required to get games published. yet because i chose to try out the TXB i got free with my CC membership and found it had potential for use with casual games you instantly assume i must be just doing this for fun out of my pocket. as said before, do not assume im merely a trialist under any cercumstances, up until my dismisal of the project, Torque360 was certainly something on the agenda for my team. and there is no reason why i still wouldnt give it some more thought if the comitment back to the projects continued, as currently it seems the commitment is in one area.
#8
At least that was the way I read it.
09/24/2007 (7:57 am)
Actually, I think Stephen was pointing out that you are extremely unhappy about various bugs but have not posted anything about the bugs you have been receiving. The credibility doesn't come from post count so much as complete silence about issues that you've been having and then seemingly accusing GG of not supporting a product. You seem to be coming out of the blue and railing about lack of support when it seems that you've never tried to contact support.At least that was the way I read it.
#9
09/24/2007 (8:05 am)
And as stated in the follow up, this is due to observation of the current forums. i felt it pointless to post if i was just going to get a standard reply. i guess i was feeling the frustration for others as well as myself. anyway.... after my rant about it im happy to try the forums as you sugest, i hope the response is good, if it is my view may change and i may reconsider using the product. which in the grand sceme of things would make our lives much much easier. as clearly stated at the beginning, im not slating the product because i think the concept, and the implementaiton of the engine is fairly good and very very helpful, so i do want to use this product, its not a mass onslaught of abuse towards garage games, just towards the response on the forums.
#10
09/24/2007 (11:23 am)
This is a difficult one. On one hand I am really taken back by how you all of the sudden appear and start condemning GarageGames. On the other hand I am also quite agitated by the bugs with the editor as well. I have gotten a response to everything but my questions related to those bugs, and I have been hoping the next release will contain the fixes. When it comes to developing games, tools are the foundation and that foundation needs to be pretty solid. Fortunately the whole TorqueX package is a huge leg up on development anyway, and at a very low cost, so I would encourage you to be a bit more positive in the future and participate in the community. I don't think anything goes truly ignored here and employee participation on the boards is amazing. This doesn't mean you can't complain, but realize that there are people on the other end of the forum you are posting to and your current approach is very offensive.
#11
In fact, the 2D side of Torque X continued to progress steadily all during the prolonged beta before 1.0 release and is still being given lots of attention. We're talking about features, bug fixes, everything. A whole lot of the stuff we're working on (and when I say 'we' I mean the Torque X team: Adam Larson and myself) is at the core engine level, which means it benefits both 2D and 3D (lighting system changes, multiple scenegraph support, memory optimization, render management optimization, etc). The 2D render manager got a significant overhaul and is way faster now, very useful functionality was added to many of the object types (animated sprites and the whole 2D animation system, and tile layers were the most significant), celled image support was added to all 2D objects (for defined cell dimensions, defined cell count, or arbitrary regions - which allows for KEY images to be loaded from the editor), and a lot more.
Adam and I had planned to kick up community interaction in terms of bug tracking and try to take care of at least the most important ones, according to the community, before and of course during the upcoming beta (in fact it's written on our white-board right now on our task list: "mantis/forum bugs"). That's probably why seeing a post like this immediately irritates the living hell out of me.
That said, I realize you can't please everyone. The truth is, we don't have full support staff and Torque X is a free product for the most part, which makes it hard to convince anyone that official support is worthwhile. I'm a developer working on Torque X and I post on these forums daily. I try to answer the questions that I think I can help with or that seem most important, but I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to answering questions because we're trying to gear up for a beta. I don't think I've ever lead anyone to believe that Torque X 2D has been shelved - if I somehow gave anyone that impression, I'm sorry. That's one of the risks of being open about development without the time to be 100% transparent, but seeing as this thread is the worst so far here on the Torque X forums in terms of whining (and it's actually mostly courteous and semi-constructive, i.e. not bad at all for a rant thread) I consider it a success.
I also understand peoples' need to vent sometimes and I'm glad it happened here rather than somewhere else where we wouldn't hear it. I hope you stick around at least long enough to help us compile a list of current issues because you seem like someone with a solid opinion of what he wants out of the tools, which is very valuable for us as developers. After all, we're supposed to be making tools that make game development easier for people, not harder.
09/24/2007 (3:36 pm)
This is the first I've seen this thread and I have to say, I'm at a bit of a loss for words. I don't know where you get off announcing that we've stopped development on the 2D side of Torque X, but that statement couldn't be more false.In fact, the 2D side of Torque X continued to progress steadily all during the prolonged beta before 1.0 release and is still being given lots of attention. We're talking about features, bug fixes, everything. A whole lot of the stuff we're working on (and when I say 'we' I mean the Torque X team: Adam Larson and myself) is at the core engine level, which means it benefits both 2D and 3D (lighting system changes, multiple scenegraph support, memory optimization, render management optimization, etc). The 2D render manager got a significant overhaul and is way faster now, very useful functionality was added to many of the object types (animated sprites and the whole 2D animation system, and tile layers were the most significant), celled image support was added to all 2D objects (for defined cell dimensions, defined cell count, or arbitrary regions - which allows for KEY images to be loaded from the editor), and a lot more.
Adam and I had planned to kick up community interaction in terms of bug tracking and try to take care of at least the most important ones, according to the community, before and of course during the upcoming beta (in fact it's written on our white-board right now on our task list: "mantis/forum bugs"). That's probably why seeing a post like this immediately irritates the living hell out of me.
That said, I realize you can't please everyone. The truth is, we don't have full support staff and Torque X is a free product for the most part, which makes it hard to convince anyone that official support is worthwhile. I'm a developer working on Torque X and I post on these forums daily. I try to answer the questions that I think I can help with or that seem most important, but I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to answering questions because we're trying to gear up for a beta. I don't think I've ever lead anyone to believe that Torque X 2D has been shelved - if I somehow gave anyone that impression, I'm sorry. That's one of the risks of being open about development without the time to be 100% transparent, but seeing as this thread is the worst so far here on the Torque X forums in terms of whining (and it's actually mostly courteous and semi-constructive, i.e. not bad at all for a rant thread) I consider it a success.
I also understand peoples' need to vent sometimes and I'm glad it happened here rather than somewhere else where we wouldn't hear it. I hope you stick around at least long enough to help us compile a list of current issues because you seem like someone with a solid opinion of what he wants out of the tools, which is very valuable for us as developers. After all, we're supposed to be making tools that make game development easier for people, not harder.
#12
09/24/2007 (5:22 pm)
TorqueX is awesome. That's why you're not hearing much negativity. The next release is going to knock our socks off I am sure. I do wish we could get quicker updates/fixes for the editor but you guys are doing an awesome job with such limited resources. Besides, the bugs are mostly annoyances. Contrary to what the original poster thinks, you guys really don't have to defend yourselves as the proof of your committment to TorqueX is right here on these forums. And the games soon to be revealed by some of us quietly toiling away will be a testament to the quality of the TorqueX engine.
#13
I dont want to take anything away from the developers, there are things i would of done differently but on a whole the Engine is a nice solid bit of work. I tried in vein last night to fight through the bugs and hoped i could, but i failed again. Not only could i not continue to work with the buggy editor, (i dont care what anyone says, this editor has bugs, and if you are any sort ofworth development team you wont be naive enough to say its bug free), but also a few new issues were thrown up, one major one being it doesnt run on my laptop at all. Which isnt good. i am now posting these issues in the bug section of the forum, i can only hope you at least respond and if a fix comes, wow.
Just to reiterate, i dont want to discount the hard work that i am sure has gone into this, i also firmly believe that the product as a whole could be something special, Its not the product i have an issue with, i know things get bugs, im a developer so i know everything has bugs, but generally i immediatly get the impression from the company they are dedicated to fixing those, if this was the case i would fight through my problems or try at least until fixes arrived, i just dont feel that with the TorqueX project.
Now you come out and speak up and offer explenations as to why maybe fixes are not coming as quick as expected, and that you are working on the tools, why isnt this a more common post, or for that matter where are the posts announcing the new versions with a list of fixes? i just cant find any anywhere.
Kzoink: i firmly agree that the bones of Torque X is awsome, and if you dont mind putting up with buggy software for extended periods of time, then again, i agree Torque X is really good. This is not what i have an issue with, not anywhere have i said that the product stinks, i merely question the commitment to the project. I sincerely hope im proven wrong, but sooner rather than later because once the novelty wears off i will be well under way with another engine.
Please please please make a fool of me by responding to my posts in the bugs section, also maybe even release a fix, that would really show me up. and i will be the first to hold my hands up. Until this happens the grunt of my comments stand. but less abusive.
cheers
09/25/2007 (1:23 am)
Thomas: You make a few fair comments. and yes maybe i went a little over the top with my original post. So i apologise for maybe being a little too abusive, but that doesnt discount the fact that the product has bugs. and its had bugs for a while, with not even much of a mention of fixing them until your post just now. I understand that if you only have limited resources then limited amount of work comes out the door, this doesnt help me as a customer though, i dont care if you only have 1 man and a dog coding, i want a product thats worthy of using. Torque X is near as damn it. there isnt much i can say iv found wrong with the engine, TheBuilder however despite what others are saying, they are only annoyances, for me they are killers, i dont want to use TXB because it frustrates me with the bugs it has, and i certainly dont want to attempt to use TorqueX without the builder, i may as well write my own engine.I dont want to take anything away from the developers, there are things i would of done differently but on a whole the Engine is a nice solid bit of work. I tried in vein last night to fight through the bugs and hoped i could, but i failed again. Not only could i not continue to work with the buggy editor, (i dont care what anyone says, this editor has bugs, and if you are any sort ofworth development team you wont be naive enough to say its bug free), but also a few new issues were thrown up, one major one being it doesnt run on my laptop at all. Which isnt good. i am now posting these issues in the bug section of the forum, i can only hope you at least respond and if a fix comes, wow.
Just to reiterate, i dont want to discount the hard work that i am sure has gone into this, i also firmly believe that the product as a whole could be something special, Its not the product i have an issue with, i know things get bugs, im a developer so i know everything has bugs, but generally i immediatly get the impression from the company they are dedicated to fixing those, if this was the case i would fight through my problems or try at least until fixes arrived, i just dont feel that with the TorqueX project.
Now you come out and speak up and offer explenations as to why maybe fixes are not coming as quick as expected, and that you are working on the tools, why isnt this a more common post, or for that matter where are the posts announcing the new versions with a list of fixes? i just cant find any anywhere.
Kzoink: i firmly agree that the bones of Torque X is awsome, and if you dont mind putting up with buggy software for extended periods of time, then again, i agree Torque X is really good. This is not what i have an issue with, not anywhere have i said that the product stinks, i merely question the commitment to the project. I sincerely hope im proven wrong, but sooner rather than later because once the novelty wears off i will be well under way with another engine.
Please please please make a fool of me by responding to my posts in the bugs section, also maybe even release a fix, that would really show me up. and i will be the first to hold my hands up. Until this happens the grunt of my comments stand. but less abusive.
cheers
#14
I suggest you go write your own engine. Good luck with that. See you in 5 years.
Me, I'll take my $150 TorqueX Pro and $100 TXB (gee, I just got a few years worth of hard work for a MEASILY $250!) and offer constructive feedback and bug reports to GarageGames that will result in future improvements. If you haven't figured it out already, GarageGames is your friend, numbskull. This product has excellent support direct from its creators and you coming in to bash it like this is absolutely ridiculous.
09/25/2007 (11:47 am)
Rik: You really have no basis to question their commitment. If you can read, it's all right here on this forum. It sounds like you have a real attitude problem. Don't take it out on GarageGames as they don't deserve it and I don't want you ruining it for the rest of us because you do not represent the community whatsoever. Learn some tact and self control.I suggest you go write your own engine. Good luck with that. See you in 5 years.
Me, I'll take my $150 TorqueX Pro and $100 TXB (gee, I just got a few years worth of hard work for a MEASILY $250!) and offer constructive feedback and bug reports to GarageGames that will result in future improvements. If you haven't figured it out already, GarageGames is your friend, numbskull. This product has excellent support direct from its creators and you coming in to bash it like this is absolutely ridiculous.
#15
09/25/2007 (12:15 pm)
Haha.. pretty funny.. think we'll leave it there.
#16
@Rik: You haven't seen a list of fixed bugs because we don't have one. Like I said, we're still gearing up for beta, so we don't know all the fixes that will go in and compiling a list of fixes and changes will require sifting through thousands (yes, thousands) of SVN logs, not to mention the fact that we won't be able to post a complete listing of all bugs fixed until we're ready to actually release.
As far as responding to bug threads, that won't happen until we're ready to do something about them. Normally we would have someone verifying that the post is actually a bug and getting a valid repro case, then submitting it into our bug tracking system. Because that takes time (and believe it or not we're busy coding) I can't verify that a bug that's posted is actually a bug, so the best I'd be able to say is "ok, I'll look into that in the next couple weeks". I read every post on these forums, or damn close to it, and I'd like to think that people are looking for more than just a pat on the head and a tummy rub for submitting a bug. Like I said, we're going to organize the bugs into a list of common issues and the community will be very involved in that process. Until then, don't expect unverified bug report threads to get too much dev attention. I'll read them, but we're not going to get down to fixing reported bugs for a few more weeks and I'd like to offer concrete answers.
The goal for Torque X is to get it into a maintenance state where it can easily be fixed and new versions can be quickly rolled out. Torque X is not currently in a maintenance state, it's still very much in a growth state. We couldn't very well release the 3D functionality bit by bit and expect to deal with actually making functional builds, testing them, updating documentation, getting them out, and then dealing with feedback all while we're trying to architect the 3D portion of the engine. Once the 3D stuff is released, Torque X is going to be mostly complete (in terms of a core feature set) and then it can mature at a much more steady rate, or at least that's the idea.
I've made it clear that we have been fixing lots of bugs and that we will be working on fixing existing bugs and I've told you how we plan to go about it. I don't know what else I could possibly say. I wish I could offer a better answer, but this is the only one there is, so I hope it's good enough.
09/25/2007 (3:40 pm)
@Kzoink: I appreciate the enthusiasm and loyalty, but opinions are welcome here - even ones we disagree with. Believe it or not, we need feedback like this.@Rik: You haven't seen a list of fixed bugs because we don't have one. Like I said, we're still gearing up for beta, so we don't know all the fixes that will go in and compiling a list of fixes and changes will require sifting through thousands (yes, thousands) of SVN logs, not to mention the fact that we won't be able to post a complete listing of all bugs fixed until we're ready to actually release.
As far as responding to bug threads, that won't happen until we're ready to do something about them. Normally we would have someone verifying that the post is actually a bug and getting a valid repro case, then submitting it into our bug tracking system. Because that takes time (and believe it or not we're busy coding) I can't verify that a bug that's posted is actually a bug, so the best I'd be able to say is "ok, I'll look into that in the next couple weeks". I read every post on these forums, or damn close to it, and I'd like to think that people are looking for more than just a pat on the head and a tummy rub for submitting a bug. Like I said, we're going to organize the bugs into a list of common issues and the community will be very involved in that process. Until then, don't expect unverified bug report threads to get too much dev attention. I'll read them, but we're not going to get down to fixing reported bugs for a few more weeks and I'd like to offer concrete answers.
The goal for Torque X is to get it into a maintenance state where it can easily be fixed and new versions can be quickly rolled out. Torque X is not currently in a maintenance state, it's still very much in a growth state. We couldn't very well release the 3D functionality bit by bit and expect to deal with actually making functional builds, testing them, updating documentation, getting them out, and then dealing with feedback all while we're trying to architect the 3D portion of the engine. Once the 3D stuff is released, Torque X is going to be mostly complete (in terms of a core feature set) and then it can mature at a much more steady rate, or at least that's the idea.
I've made it clear that we have been fixing lots of bugs and that we will be working on fixing existing bugs and I've told you how we plan to go about it. I don't know what else I could possibly say. I wish I could offer a better answer, but this is the only one there is, so I hope it's good enough.
#17
Thomas, i have to say its refreshing to see someone respond to critisism in a positive way. I feel this post may have taken a direction that was unexpected. If any personal offense was caused it was ill intended, i really did not require the level of detail you put into your workload and future commitments however its good to see that there is information to be had from GG so take that as a compliment.
The comment
if you say
As mentioned above, this post has gone way beyond its intentions, and ill take majority responsibility for the cause, please accept my apology. you have made a very clear point and i wish you good luck with the 3d engine and the development of the torque x engine.
i will probably continue to dabble with torque x and hope for some stronger versions in the near future.
please dont feel obliged to reply.
09/25/2007 (4:32 pm)
Wasnt going to respond but it seems a lot of effort went into the reply so i felt obliged.Thomas, i have to say its refreshing to see someone respond to critisism in a positive way. I feel this post may have taken a direction that was unexpected. If any personal offense was caused it was ill intended, i really did not require the level of detail you put into your workload and future commitments however its good to see that there is information to be had from GG so take that as a compliment.
The comment
Quote:As far as responding to bug threads, that won't happen until we're ready to do something about themat least acknowledge the problems, saying yes this is a bug, or no it was designed this way or heres a workaround is not what you would call pat on the head and rub the tummy for submitting. to me thats called customer service. if you are releasing a product that isnt complete or still "growing" and charging for it you should be prepared for all sorts of different issues appearing. i have a couple of posts now outstanding with only a reply from a community member. Its only been a couple of days granted so im not anxious about it, but you have tried to make it clear you do respond to the comminity with help.
if you say
Quote:But you have time to respond to this thread, a thread that has no relation to an actual issue with the product we are using, i am apreciative that you responded dont get me wrong, i would however had prefered the most recent post's effort gone into responding to my 2 quite BLATENT bugs in the software. as i say, a couple of days isnt such a long time so dont get eaten up about it, i know how software houses work, because i run one, so this kind of comment just iritates me.
Because that takes time (and believe it or not we're busy coding)
As mentioned above, this post has gone way beyond its intentions, and ill take majority responsibility for the cause, please accept my apology. you have made a very clear point and i wish you good luck with the 3d engine and the development of the torque x engine.
i will probably continue to dabble with torque x and hope for some stronger versions in the near future.
please dont feel obliged to reply.
#18
As I recall, you have three issues. One is that the scroll pane refreshes and doesn't remember the last place you were making changes. I wouldn't consider that a bug so much as an annoyance. The tooltips rendering in a pane, is a bug, though extremely minor in that it does not limit functionality in any shape or form. But it is an annoyance, though I do not know if there could be multi-pane layering problems with tooltips. I've used a number of GTK apps that get confused as to which tooltip layer is the top for which mouse position. This isn't GTK, though. The other one, with your laptop. That one is a show-stopper as it will not run at all. That is something that should be looked into, even if support for BootCamp, VMWare, and Parallels is not anywhere on a priority list for XNA or its supported products. It would be a curiosity to see what the problem was between certain XNA and TorqueX projects and the platformer project. I tested the platformer demo on my Vaio, Tablet, and crappy Dell Desktop, and since my mini and dual G5 are not Intel Macs, I don't have a shiny Bootcamp config to test with.
09/25/2007 (7:32 pm)
There really is no point in him posting at all, is there? Silence would have been better. Instead, he posts to tell you the reasoning that he is not sorting through Mantis and the SVN changes for issues that would take and inordinate amount of time.As I recall, you have three issues. One is that the scroll pane refreshes and doesn't remember the last place you were making changes. I wouldn't consider that a bug so much as an annoyance. The tooltips rendering in a pane, is a bug, though extremely minor in that it does not limit functionality in any shape or form. But it is an annoyance, though I do not know if there could be multi-pane layering problems with tooltips. I've used a number of GTK apps that get confused as to which tooltip layer is the top for which mouse position. This isn't GTK, though. The other one, with your laptop. That one is a show-stopper as it will not run at all. That is something that should be looked into, even if support for BootCamp, VMWare, and Parallels is not anywhere on a priority list for XNA or its supported products. It would be a curiosity to see what the problem was between certain XNA and TorqueX projects and the platformer project. I tested the platformer demo on my Vaio, Tablet, and crappy Dell Desktop, and since my mini and dual G5 are not Intel Macs, I don't have a shiny Bootcamp config to test with.
#19
you quite clearly dont understand how operating systems work, VMware and parallels wont work for a long time. not at the fault of GG but because running 3d aceleration virtually is no easy task and is a long way off. however bootcamp on theother hand just runs like a normal computer, if you believe that bootcamp could be causing issues with the Torque product base then you are very much mistaken. if you read the posts i clearly state that i believe its clearly a config problem not an actual problem with the software so this is the one i would tackle last not first, i tell you this, im glad you're not in charge of prioritising problems because we wouldnt have what we have now. To me the two issues with TXB make me not want to use it, and i dont want to use Torque without the builder so therefore renders the whole product fairly useless to me. this is not me slating the product and saying its crap, when you read the posts do you actually join up the words and make complete sentances, if you did you wouldnt have come back with that reply.
GG seriously i wont be offended if you remove this post, after my final post i was fairly happy that GG in general paticularly thomas had made an effort to reassure me of my worries, you failed, but im happy you tried, however David Blake on the other hand has quite clearly come to disrupt this post again, spouting comments that have zero relevance to this posts, and also half reading my issues and trying to make a mockery of my actual issues, which bare no resemblence to this post which is a concern.
David, if you turn someones concern of a bug into a user annoyance that i should learn to live with, tell me what company you work for and i'll know not to purchase software from there.Thomas clearly acknowledged bugs exist, the companies response to this isnt the greatest but its a damn size better response than saying deal with it, its the way it is, so why try to speak on behalf of the company.
09/26/2007 (1:25 am)
David, you are making this much worse than it needs to be. Who are you to say that these are annoyances and i should just learn to live with it? do you work for garage games? do you have any say at all in what and how things get fixed? you're making my opinion of garagegames plummet and you dont even work for them.you quite clearly dont understand how operating systems work, VMware and parallels wont work for a long time. not at the fault of GG but because running 3d aceleration virtually is no easy task and is a long way off. however bootcamp on theother hand just runs like a normal computer, if you believe that bootcamp could be causing issues with the Torque product base then you are very much mistaken. if you read the posts i clearly state that i believe its clearly a config problem not an actual problem with the software so this is the one i would tackle last not first, i tell you this, im glad you're not in charge of prioritising problems because we wouldnt have what we have now. To me the two issues with TXB make me not want to use it, and i dont want to use Torque without the builder so therefore renders the whole product fairly useless to me. this is not me slating the product and saying its crap, when you read the posts do you actually join up the words and make complete sentances, if you did you wouldnt have come back with that reply.
GG seriously i wont be offended if you remove this post, after my final post i was fairly happy that GG in general paticularly thomas had made an effort to reassure me of my worries, you failed, but im happy you tried, however David Blake on the other hand has quite clearly come to disrupt this post again, spouting comments that have zero relevance to this posts, and also half reading my issues and trying to make a mockery of my actual issues, which bare no resemblence to this post which is a concern.
David, if you turn someones concern of a bug into a user annoyance that i should learn to live with, tell me what company you work for and i'll know not to purchase software from there.Thomas clearly acknowledged bugs exist, the companies response to this isnt the greatest but its a damn size better response than saying deal with it, its the way it is, so why try to speak on behalf of the company.
#20
If you can't refrain from being offended by what people happen to say (as long as they are professional themselves), then please refrain from posting publicly--this isn't a place for argument, it's a place for discussion.
09/26/2007 (6:18 am)
@Rik: David is entitled to his opinion just like you are--and you are taking offense to things for no reason whatsoever. Please refrain from taking offense to people that happen to disagree with you, and respect the fact that they have the right to hold opinions, and post about them here just like you do.If you can't refrain from being offended by what people happen to say (as long as they are professional themselves), then please refrain from posting publicly--this isn't a place for argument, it's a place for discussion.
Torque 3D Owner Stephen Zepp
Until today, you haven't made any comments at all, so why would you think this?