Direct me to programming guides relevant to my goals?
by KP · in Torque Game Builder · 09/08/2007 (11:24 pm) · 15 replies
Hi there! :)
With TGB, it seems rather straightforward to create a platformer or shooter. But my intention is an RPG that incorporates several different "view styles" (third person, still-frame first person a la Myst, and still-frame and/or video screens with dialogue choices, a text parser, etc.) -- and I'm just having a tough time getting any clue about where to start in discovering programming literature relevant to these kinds of issues, as opposed to things like, say, physics or collission detection or the like, which really don't matter for me at this point.
Additionally, looking at the TGB interface, I've no idea how to get to the "internal system" of my game. It seems all "game-view" oriented -- so, for example, while it looks easy to create a "level", where in the heck in the program do I go to in order to program, say, the character stats system, the combat system, dialogue branches, text parser effects (or even the text parser itself!), etc?
So basically - where can I learn about how to create the "nuts and bolts" of my game, and, moreover, how do I access them within the TGB program? Thanks!!!!
With TGB, it seems rather straightforward to create a platformer or shooter. But my intention is an RPG that incorporates several different "view styles" (third person, still-frame first person a la Myst, and still-frame and/or video screens with dialogue choices, a text parser, etc.) -- and I'm just having a tough time getting any clue about where to start in discovering programming literature relevant to these kinds of issues, as opposed to things like, say, physics or collission detection or the like, which really don't matter for me at this point.
Additionally, looking at the TGB interface, I've no idea how to get to the "internal system" of my game. It seems all "game-view" oriented -- so, for example, while it looks easy to create a "level", where in the heck in the program do I go to in order to program, say, the character stats system, the combat system, dialogue branches, text parser effects (or even the text parser itself!), etc?
So basically - where can I learn about how to create the "nuts and bolts" of my game, and, moreover, how do I access them within the TGB program? Thanks!!!!
About the author
#2
09/09/2007 (11:36 pm)
Surely there must be substantial resources, or else how would anyone ever make any particularly complex game?
#3
The reason... in my opinion, a complete lack of organized documentation, community database, up-to-date tutorials (heck even the ones that ship with the demo are recognized by GG to be outdated and not correct) and access for trial users to the forums (which I have heard are still not very complete).
If GG wants TGB to be the product it can be... they really need to hire some professional full time documentation folks to get on the ball.. PDF tutorials and flash based game tutorials, multiple templates for varied game types (ie: RPG, card and dice, platform) should ship with the software, etc.
Anyway... I do wish you luck... 1.5 is a big step forward.. but still has these issues that hold it back. If anyone has made a game with TGB that would like to share their code/templates, I'd love to see it... so far, I've only run across a single person and that code wasn't very complete.
09/10/2007 (5:57 am)
Take a look around... how many complex games do you actually see completed or for sale with TGB? Even with the regular torque, there are only a handful of games that are actually out there sucessfully implemented - with all the users, only a few teams have successfully churned out something with these engines. I think TGB is a nice product.. but - it's like dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit - we all want the drag/drop UI with a powerful back end to create a decent 2D game - but it seems like the results are just out of reach for most of us. The reason... in my opinion, a complete lack of organized documentation, community database, up-to-date tutorials (heck even the ones that ship with the demo are recognized by GG to be outdated and not correct) and access for trial users to the forums (which I have heard are still not very complete).
If GG wants TGB to be the product it can be... they really need to hire some professional full time documentation folks to get on the ball.. PDF tutorials and flash based game tutorials, multiple templates for varied game types (ie: RPG, card and dice, platform) should ship with the software, etc.
Anyway... I do wish you luck... 1.5 is a big step forward.. but still has these issues that hold it back. If anyone has made a game with TGB that would like to share their code/templates, I'd love to see it... so far, I've only run across a single person and that code wasn't very complete.
#4
Most people underestimate how long it takes to create documentation and on top of that how much it takes to maintain it. Such as the current version, 1.5.1. Updating all the documentation properly would be re-creating most of it using behaviors. Unfortunately that is a huge resource drain, one that we can't quite achieve. We do try our best though.
The tutorials that do exist give you a good idea of how to achieve certain functionality within TGB. They will not show you how to code the nuts and bolts of your game.
This isn't just the problem with the documentation though, this is a reality of game development. Your game won't be the same as everyone else's game. A lot of implementation is specific to your particular game, so releasing a tutorial on creating systems for an "RPG" may help you a lot, or may not help you at all. So instead of dedicating resources to stepping everyone through creating specific full functioning games that will only help 5% of our user base, we try to teach you the concepts. Our current state of documentation is good in my opinion, far from where we want it to be.
It's grown quite a bit, considering T2D (what TGB used to be called) originally launched with 1 tutorial. Now there are multiple tutorials that step you through making something fairly complete as well as a handful of feature tutorials covering most major aspects of the tools and engine... plus multiple references and a fairly comprehensive Engine reference (script functions, object types, etc).
I've seen people work on RPGs in TGB. I've even started my own in the past (now I don't have time to do so since I dedicate most of my time to my work at GG). It is fully achievable in TGB. The problem is that complex games are that, complex. They inherently are difficult, because there is so much to them. Making such a game is going to be a challenge no matter what tech you use (unless you using RPG Maker or something, then your game will look and function quite a bit like multitudes of other games out there).
My best recommendation is to go through the existing tutorials... if you like TGB as an engine and toolset then purchase it. Having gone through most of the tutorials you will have a decent understanding of how to do things in TGB, you can then venture into developing your RPG systems as well as have access to the private forums to ask question, ask for help, request and share resources, etc.
When you purchase the engine you also get access to TDN. TDN is completely community maintained, and quite a bit of it is out of date (due to it being community maintained). Though there are still some useful resources.
About 2 years ago I created a 200+ page RTS tutorial on there, though fairly out of date, much of the systems themselves are still actually a good starting point and some people still use it.
TDN is wiki based, so it allows our users to collaborate in a space where they can contribute and share documentation/resources.
@Pesto:
Your input is taken and I'm sorry you feel that way. How is the documentation not organized? I thought it was moderately organized at least. Do you mean you found it hard finding what you wanted? Your further feedback would be appreciated.
Also we did use to use PDF as the format, unfortunately we got a fairly large negative response to that, which is why we changed the format.
I also developed a back end system that generates our docs (doing the various organization and such that it does, the drop down tutorials within t utorials for example) which also allows us to much better maintain the documentation.
I do agree that more documentation developers would be nice, though we do try to do our best (especially considering I've never been fully 100% on just documentation either, while managing it, developing the back end framework, maintaining it, and utilizing some intern resources to create/maintain it).
We are in fact wanting to move away from long tutorials that focus on a specific t ype of game. We'd rather teach you the concepts of using our tool/engine to develop game elements and let you piece them together however you want, rather than force you down a path.
A note to this though, our private forum community is fairly active, they do help eachother out a lot and people do share progress at times.
A final note about limited games in the Torque engine. This is true with every engine out there.... look at the sizes of the communities in relation to all published games (btw I think you may underestimate the amount of games that have been released with various Torque engines, some quite complex)... Making a game is not easy, especially getting to the publishing step... people often start to complex and set themselves up to fail. People also get too dependent on only doing what people have instructed them to. In the future we are going to try and step the user through implementing concepts and engaging them to combine them in their owns ways, hopefully teaching them to be less dependent on specific examples and more about combining what they know to achieve their goals. It's a tough think to accomplish and impart.
09/10/2007 (9:57 am)
Currently we do not have a lot of specific game type documentation. Mainly due to everyones ideal game type being so different that making such documentation requires a Huge amount of resources.Most people underestimate how long it takes to create documentation and on top of that how much it takes to maintain it. Such as the current version, 1.5.1. Updating all the documentation properly would be re-creating most of it using behaviors. Unfortunately that is a huge resource drain, one that we can't quite achieve. We do try our best though.
The tutorials that do exist give you a good idea of how to achieve certain functionality within TGB. They will not show you how to code the nuts and bolts of your game.
This isn't just the problem with the documentation though, this is a reality of game development. Your game won't be the same as everyone else's game. A lot of implementation is specific to your particular game, so releasing a tutorial on creating systems for an "RPG" may help you a lot, or may not help you at all. So instead of dedicating resources to stepping everyone through creating specific full functioning games that will only help 5% of our user base, we try to teach you the concepts. Our current state of documentation is good in my opinion, far from where we want it to be.
It's grown quite a bit, considering T2D (what TGB used to be called) originally launched with 1 tutorial. Now there are multiple tutorials that step you through making something fairly complete as well as a handful of feature tutorials covering most major aspects of the tools and engine... plus multiple references and a fairly comprehensive Engine reference (script functions, object types, etc).
I've seen people work on RPGs in TGB. I've even started my own in the past (now I don't have time to do so since I dedicate most of my time to my work at GG). It is fully achievable in TGB. The problem is that complex games are that, complex. They inherently are difficult, because there is so much to them. Making such a game is going to be a challenge no matter what tech you use (unless you using RPG Maker or something, then your game will look and function quite a bit like multitudes of other games out there).
My best recommendation is to go through the existing tutorials... if you like TGB as an engine and toolset then purchase it. Having gone through most of the tutorials you will have a decent understanding of how to do things in TGB, you can then venture into developing your RPG systems as well as have access to the private forums to ask question, ask for help, request and share resources, etc.
When you purchase the engine you also get access to TDN. TDN is completely community maintained, and quite a bit of it is out of date (due to it being community maintained). Though there are still some useful resources.
About 2 years ago I created a 200+ page RTS tutorial on there, though fairly out of date, much of the systems themselves are still actually a good starting point and some people still use it.
TDN is wiki based, so it allows our users to collaborate in a space where they can contribute and share documentation/resources.
@Pesto:
Your input is taken and I'm sorry you feel that way. How is the documentation not organized? I thought it was moderately organized at least. Do you mean you found it hard finding what you wanted? Your further feedback would be appreciated.
Also we did use to use PDF as the format, unfortunately we got a fairly large negative response to that, which is why we changed the format.
I also developed a back end system that generates our docs (doing the various organization and such that it does, the drop down tutorials within t utorials for example) which also allows us to much better maintain the documentation.
I do agree that more documentation developers would be nice, though we do try to do our best (especially considering I've never been fully 100% on just documentation either, while managing it, developing the back end framework, maintaining it, and utilizing some intern resources to create/maintain it).
We are in fact wanting to move away from long tutorials that focus on a specific t ype of game. We'd rather teach you the concepts of using our tool/engine to develop game elements and let you piece them together however you want, rather than force you down a path.
A note to this though, our private forum community is fairly active, they do help eachother out a lot and people do share progress at times.
A final note about limited games in the Torque engine. This is true with every engine out there.... look at the sizes of the communities in relation to all published games (btw I think you may underestimate the amount of games that have been released with various Torque engines, some quite complex)... Making a game is not easy, especially getting to the publishing step... people often start to complex and set themselves up to fail. People also get too dependent on only doing what people have instructed them to. In the future we are going to try and step the user through implementing concepts and engaging them to combine them in their owns ways, hopefully teaching them to be less dependent on specific examples and more about combining what they know to achieve their goals. It's a tough think to accomplish and impart.
#5
I understand the nature of GG's code makes it difficult to keep things private.. but giving access to TDN and the closed forums would be a huge step forward in my opinion.
TDN needs to be maintained in order for it to be useful... having so many tutorials and examples that are out of date means TDN isn't useful... just frustrating.
I browse through the other products forums and granted some are better than others.. but they are quite active and provide newbie users with something to go on... how can I evaluate the product and the support without seeing the support forums? I think these should be open to all....
Yes.. I agree about the limited nature of creating games with these engines.. however, the real difference between regular torque and TGB is supposed to be the ease at which games can be created in 2D.. I'm not looking for a cakewalk.. but it is quite difficult to figure anything out in torque.
I'll give you an example... I created a simple blackjack style game in C++.. I found basically all the resources I needed (along with example code and discussions) along with direct x, etc... Of course I still had to program things and learn as I went along.. but the resources available to me were tremendous. Now, I wanted to update the program using the demo of TGB... however, I had no where to start. After digging through google searches for days.. I finally came across a resource that someone had done... I'm learning a lot from the code but it's still like looking for those box directions. Perhaps it is just the nature of a newish product with limited user base.. but still as a company, you have a tremendous opportunity to provide these type of resources - a 500 page TGB book for example would go a long way to helping the community.
Anyway.. I ramble... thx for the response.. and I look forward to someday perhaps an open forum and more TGB resources out there..
09/10/2007 (11:43 am)
Hi Matthew.. I do thank you for actually taking the time to respond - so often no one from GG stops by these "demo" forums to respond.. very frustrating.I understand the nature of GG's code makes it difficult to keep things private.. but giving access to TDN and the closed forums would be a huge step forward in my opinion.
TDN needs to be maintained in order for it to be useful... having so many tutorials and examples that are out of date means TDN isn't useful... just frustrating.
I browse through the other products forums and granted some are better than others.. but they are quite active and provide newbie users with something to go on... how can I evaluate the product and the support without seeing the support forums? I think these should be open to all....
Yes.. I agree about the limited nature of creating games with these engines.. however, the real difference between regular torque and TGB is supposed to be the ease at which games can be created in 2D.. I'm not looking for a cakewalk.. but it is quite difficult to figure anything out in torque.
I'll give you an example... I created a simple blackjack style game in C++.. I found basically all the resources I needed (along with example code and discussions) along with direct x, etc... Of course I still had to program things and learn as I went along.. but the resources available to me were tremendous. Now, I wanted to update the program using the demo of TGB... however, I had no where to start. After digging through google searches for days.. I finally came across a resource that someone had done... I'm learning a lot from the code but it's still like looking for those box directions. Perhaps it is just the nature of a newish product with limited user base.. but still as a company, you have a tremendous opportunity to provide these type of resources - a 500 page TGB book for example would go a long way to helping the community.
Anyway.. I ramble... thx for the response.. and I look forward to someday perhaps an open forum and more TGB resources out there..
#6
09/10/2007 (12:01 pm)
And who would write this 500 page book? It takes quite a lot to write such a book, and often it is outdated by the time it is released as software moves forward at a constant pace while publishers like to set final deadlines and then work on the next revision of the book later, should it be profitable. Working with an online publisher like Lulu would make updates easier, but it would also be a constant process, especially if the changes are as sweeping as 1.5. Not that a book isn't a good idea, but you mention it as if it is a simple matter to write such a book or documentation for that matter.
#7
I wasn't trying to make any specific criticisms of TGB - it's just that, as of now, I just don't know how to access the nuts-and-bolts code, or where exactly to learn more about how to code for TGB. Does TGB use the same code language as TGE, so that any of the resources I have for it will translate?
I may have used the word "complex" incorrectly - I didn't mean that the game itself would be complex, but that the particular aspects of the game that I wanted to deal with at this point were its most complex parts -- i.e., the gameplay system. Frankly, my idea would not be hard to implement in even something like Flash, but there are a number of reasons that I'd rather use TGB to do it. The thing is, I just don't know what documentation to look at in order to see how to move beyond the most obvious facets of the GUI, which seem to me to be more suited for an action or physics-based game than what I'm trying to do.
Anyway, thanks again everybody!
09/12/2007 (9:06 pm)
Hello! Thanks for writing, Matt and David and Pesto! :)I wasn't trying to make any specific criticisms of TGB - it's just that, as of now, I just don't know how to access the nuts-and-bolts code, or where exactly to learn more about how to code for TGB. Does TGB use the same code language as TGE, so that any of the resources I have for it will translate?
I may have used the word "complex" incorrectly - I didn't mean that the game itself would be complex, but that the particular aspects of the game that I wanted to deal with at this point were its most complex parts -- i.e., the gameplay system. Frankly, my idea would not be hard to implement in even something like Flash, but there are a number of reasons that I'd rather use TGB to do it. The thing is, I just don't know what documentation to look at in order to see how to move beyond the most obvious facets of the GUI, which seem to me to be more suited for an action or physics-based game than what I'm trying to do.
Anyway, thanks again everybody!
#8
The idea is basically that GG needs to hire staff to do this important critical piece in order for users to be able to do just that.. use their product. The very popular book: Gurus guide to 3D Game Programming was an enourmous success not because it was the best written book in the world.. but was a very good detailed introduction on how to program a 3D game using C... imagine a book in the same theme for Torque. I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is too difficult.. or not a very good investment by GG to increase its user base.
Thoughts?
09/16/2007 (8:47 am)
Take a look at any barnes and noble and scan the shelves for computer books... how many do you see there for products like Programming in C++... Game programming with Direct X... of course books are going to get out of date.. in fact, book writers and publisher COUNT on it so they can just write a revision and make more money.The idea is basically that GG needs to hire staff to do this important critical piece in order for users to be able to do just that.. use their product. The very popular book: Gurus guide to 3D Game Programming was an enourmous success not because it was the best written book in the world.. but was a very good detailed introduction on how to program a 3D game using C... imagine a book in the same theme for Torque. I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is too difficult.. or not a very good investment by GG to increase its user base.
Thoughts?
#9
We're a game engine company, not a book authoring company--if you look at who wrote all those books you are talking about, much of the time it's not the company that created the products. Books come from the user/developer market, not the product developers in most cases.
09/16/2007 (8:51 am)
There are already 3 books written for TGE, and as far as I am aware at least 2 more total on the way.We're a game engine company, not a book authoring company--if you look at who wrote all those books you are talking about, much of the time it's not the company that created the products. Books come from the user/developer market, not the product developers in most cases.
#10
09/24/2007 (4:38 am)
Well gang, I've been waiting on this thread to do something for me for a while now, but crazily it seems like Pesto is getting all the reponses, rather than I, which I consider quite strange. Stephen, David - is there nothing helpful you have to say to me?
#11
You know, I want to learn as much about the programming in general as I can, but specifically what I'm trying to do is just get together a stat-system (character creation), combat system (turn-based), and a dialogue system. All quite mathematically simple, up to a certain point. I just need some basic documentation, if you could please direct me to some.
09/24/2007 (4:44 am)
To clarify -You know, I want to learn as much about the programming in general as I can, but specifically what I'm trying to do is just get together a stat-system (character creation), combat system (turn-based), and a dialogue system. All quite mathematically simple, up to a certain point. I just need some basic documentation, if you could please direct me to some.
#12
stat-system:
Most of this is storing of data and GUI creation for creating characters... if you purchase a license TDN has some basic GUI articles that show you some of the basics of GUI editing. As far as the data end of it, the most data-centric documentation, as far as I can remember off the top of my head, is the Checkers Tutorial. It covers storing data for the checker board server side and client side and then manipulating and comparing this data when the player moves... the down side is it's based around networking in TGB, though this leads to my next suggestion...
turn-based combat system:
The Checkers Tutorial is probably your best bet here, it covers switching turns for checkers (turn based). In the end you'll probably want to implement a basic state machine system, though you can find articles on state based machines for general programming purposes all over the net, after the Checkers Tutorial you should probably be able to implement something like that.
dialogue system:
Well there's a couple routes. There are some TGE RPG dialog resources that you should have access to (considering your a TGE license holder), those should implement just fine here.
Another alternative is to create your own solution, either using those as references, or just starting from scratch. After going through some of the documentation you should be in a better state to attempt something like this.
09/24/2007 (8:36 am)
@KP:stat-system:
Most of this is storing of data and GUI creation for creating characters... if you purchase a license TDN has some basic GUI articles that show you some of the basics of GUI editing. As far as the data end of it, the most data-centric documentation, as far as I can remember off the top of my head, is the Checkers Tutorial. It covers storing data for the checker board server side and client side and then manipulating and comparing this data when the player moves... the down side is it's based around networking in TGB, though this leads to my next suggestion...
turn-based combat system:
The Checkers Tutorial is probably your best bet here, it covers switching turns for checkers (turn based). In the end you'll probably want to implement a basic state machine system, though you can find articles on state based machines for general programming purposes all over the net, after the Checkers Tutorial you should probably be able to implement something like that.
dialogue system:
Well there's a couple routes. There are some TGE RPG dialog resources that you should have access to (considering your a TGE license holder), those should implement just fine here.
Another alternative is to create your own solution, either using those as references, or just starting from scratch. After going through some of the documentation you should be in a better state to attempt something like this.
#13
09/24/2007 (8:36 am)
In general my recommendation would be to go through as many of the tutorials as you can. It will help you get familiar with TGB and scripting with it. 
#15
I will grant that some of the tuts are out-of-date, since they were written for older versions of TGB, and some of the up-to-date tuts have errors in them. Look on the obsolete material and the errors as chances to learn even more about the SW by fixing the errors in the tuts. You can also give back to the community by: (1) emailing GG, telling them what the errors are, and giving them corrected text for inclusion in the tutorial; or (2) correcting the tutorial yourself and submitting the corrected version on the Torque Developer Network. (Matt et. al., I'm sorry I don't have a list of which ones need correcting, or what the corrections are. I know I should do that, but I'm too impatient. I just figure out the fixes, blow past them, and keep working on my game. Maybe when things slow down ...)
"Learning by doing" and "learning by fixing." Such is the life of cutting-edge developers using cutting-edge tools.
--
Regards
Ray
09/24/2007 (12:50 pm)
I'll second Matt's recommendation to work through the tutorials. The tuts give you the chance to learn by doing, and that's really an excellent way to learn something like TGB (or TGE, or TGEA, for that matter).I will grant that some of the tuts are out-of-date, since they were written for older versions of TGB, and some of the up-to-date tuts have errors in them. Look on the obsolete material and the errors as chances to learn even more about the SW by fixing the errors in the tuts. You can also give back to the community by: (1) emailing GG, telling them what the errors are, and giving them corrected text for inclusion in the tutorial; or (2) correcting the tutorial yourself and submitting the corrected version on the Torque Developer Network. (Matt et. al., I'm sorry I don't have a list of which ones need correcting, or what the corrections are. I know I should do that, but I'm too impatient. I just figure out the fixes, blow past them, and keep working on my game. Maybe when things slow down ...)
"Learning by doing" and "learning by fixing." Such is the life of cutting-edge developers using cutting-edge tools.
--
Regards
Ray
Torque Owner Pesto126