Torque vs. q3 engine

#1 The Quake 3 Engine is now named id Tech 3.

id Tech 3 is a damn fine engine and one that is highly overlooked. You can use it for FREE, including commercial distribution under the GPL license. If that doesn't work for you, id Software offer a "non-GPL" engine license for a flat fee (no backend royalty) of $10,000 per title.

As far as comparing the engines is concerned, go buy or download a free demo of Quake 3 and see for yourself. id Tech 3 has quite a few more features than TGE and is generally more stable. The main area where TGE is stronger would be outdoor terrain in my opinion.

#2 Tim, I am in agreement with you that the quake 3 engine (id tech 3) is a damn fine engine that is highly overlooked. I already own Quake 3, but I just recently purchased the entire Id library on Steam.

You seem to be saying that id tech 3 has more features than TGE, could you elaborate on that more?

#3 Well it's been a while since I've played with Q3 however one thing that stands out is that it has better interior rendering and optimizations. It also has way better lighting and shadowing, which is important to me.

Some other things I liked about it:

Shaders (Not in stock TGE)

Hardware rendering (Not in stock TGE, everything is done on the CPU)

Networking

Special Effects (especially particles)

AI

Scripting

Camera control

They're just my opinions though. When I compare Tribes 2 to Quake 3 on a technical level, I'm far more impressed with Quake 3.

#4 AI, Networking, Particle Effects, are included with TGE. The quality of them depends on the programmers and graphical artists. Not the engine.

#5

Quote:
The quality of them depends on the programmers and graphical artists. Not the engine.

I somewhat agree however that's not entirely true. The engine's ability to sort alpha channels, to display particle data in an efficient manner and other such factors all come into play. For example, some engines have particle boards and ribbon trail style particles implemented as stock, some engines do not. Some engines handle depth testing well, others do not, and so on.

You're right that the programmer and artists on your project have a huge impact, but the engine plays a vitally important role as well. I was merely pointing out that out-of-the-box id Tech 3 has much more fleshed out and functional networking, AI and camera control etc. On the TGE side of things, it has much better outdoor scene and terrain support out-of-the-box than id Tech 3.

#6

Quote:
Hardware rendering (Not in stock TGE, everything is done on the CPU)

This is incorrect. TGE does hardware rendering trough OpenGL or if you wish, a DirectX wrapper.

Edit: You might be thinking of something else. Rendering TGE graphics in software would be terribly slow I assure you. :)

#7 I'm thinking about rendering being calculated on the CPU instead of the GPU, a combination of both.

#8 Tim, the "rendering" is not calculated on the CPU since we're using OpenGL and not a software driver or rasterizer of some kind. Some work is done by the CPU but that's a fact in Quake 3 and any game engine too.

The original Quake used software rendering, so did Quake 2 (although not exclusively). Quake 3 uses only hardware rendering, and so does Torque since it has no software driver to do so.

Edit: However, the rendering in Torque easily gets limited by the CPU since it's not using the latest GPU features (vertex buffers and whatnot..). Quake 3 doesn't use those either, though.

#9 Where do you purchase it at.
the website link.

#10 Where do I get the download

#11 Here i think (this is where wilkipedia linked to) :
ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/source/

#12 Mirror

I mirrored it because the id FTP servers are often at capacity.

#13 Also, you can download cleaned up and fixed source code and binaries from here:

ioquake3.org/

#14 Q3 as well does not have shaders, as TGE does not in stock.
What Q3 calls shaders are material scripts similar to the cipher engines "shader", they are just blend combinations and other dynamic effects, that have nothing to do with vertex and fragment programs.
This kind of tech wasn't supported until q4

#15 I worked on a q3 mod years ago and it was kinda hard for me to do as it was coded in ansi C and not c++.

#16 Having used both engines, here's my comparison...

Quake 3's engine is a great, solid engine. A few key features:
* An excellent BSP-based rendering engine -- the #1 feature here is curved surfaces. If TGE's interiors had curved surfaces, I would be in heaven. =)
* Simple software shaders capable of vertex and texture manipulation.
* An excellent translucent/transparent surfaces implementation. (Incidentally, these are specified via a simple shader.) I'm continually boggled that this still isn't a standard feature of TGE's interiors.
* Portalized doors and teleporters.
* True volumetric fog. Another item on my TGE wish-list.
* Good networking implementation; on par with TGE's.
* Good AI/Bots. Team Arena took these to a whole new level.

With that in mind, TGE is stronger in several areas, including:
* Terrain engine is far more sophisticated and powerful than anything Q3 has.
* Seamless integration of terrain & interior structures.
* Outdoor rendering features like foliage replication, precipitation/lightning, and sky/sunlight effects.
* GUI implementation is much better; having a built-in editor is huge.
* Built-in world/terrain editor: priceless. =)
* TorqueScript: Way more flexible and easy to use.
* Although it's technically an add-on to TGE: ArcaneFX. Q3 has nothing that can even be compared to this.
* Last but certainly not least, TGE is constantly being improved and has a thriving community. Q3 doesn't have much going on anymore; "stagnant" is a good word for it. =)

@Marc Schaerer: Sorry, I'm gonna nitpick your comment a little... =)

While Q3's shaders are fairly simple and are implemented/executed CPU-side, I would indeed consider them to be shaders; like I mentioned above, they are capable of both vertex and texture manipulation effects. And of course, shaders have been in use long before GPU hardware availability: Pixar's Renderman comes immediately to mind.

But you are right to point out that Q3 shaders are not hardware shaders and they absolutely cannot do any per-pixel shading effects.

#17 I like the Q3 engine, but I have never seen:
1. Terrain
2. Physics (vehicle)
3. Server based hit system, must be corrected to allow for client based hit detection. This drove me nuts to no end when I was playing over modem. I don't know if TGE is any better, but it is a drawback to me as a player.
4. If any engine is completely geared toward FPS it is the Q3 engine.
5. Art pipeline choices are limited compared to TGE. GG actively supports my choices of art tools.
6. Developers have moved on. GG is active in development both on new and old technology. Possibility for smooth transition to newer tech without a lot of pain.
7. Excellent forum for questions such as this.

TGE wins in my book for a lot of reasons. The developers are approachable is an awesome reason. Don't get me wrong, I highly respect the ID team, but their focus is not on indies. GG staff is.

#18

Quote:Q3 doesn't have much going on anymore; "stagnant" is a good word for it.

id Software is currently developing a new game with the Quake3 engine called QuakeZero. Also, there are many extremely ambitious projects such as Xreal and Tremulous. The amount of work poured into Xreal especially is quite amazing... it's more or less Doom3.

#19

Quote:7. Excellent forum for questions such as this.

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