What now GarageGames ?
by Petteri Huttunen · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 07/25/2007 (10:42 am) · 32 replies
I just invested the for the sum of 10000$ for laptops (with Ati Radeon Mobility x1400) today for my developers,
to build a game which is based on Your engine (TGEA) which I bought couple of months ago.
Not that that I'm pissed of the lack of documentation,
Not that I'm pissed off with the rate of updates,
It's that I just found out that neither of Your products,
Show Tool Pro , and THE MOST ------- CRUCIAL PART OF OUR PRODUCTION pipeline,
Constuctor 1.0-1.02
DOESN'T ------- WORK.
No refunds by the company who sold these laptops,
as Open GL SHOULD work out from the box, right ?
AND there weren't a ------- single thread in Your ------- messy forums with an indication that
this chipset (or that Constructor/ShowTool are OpenGL ONLY) weren't supported.
ANY other game + application which uses OpenGL (any version) as native API works just fine (except Modo),
INCLUDING old games/applications like Quake 2/3, Java OGL for e.g. work as they should.
I'm a good customer but this is a way ------- too much.
Oh, I and forgot to mention that and our government (U.S based investors too) funded prototype production starts at 30.7.2007 (70/30/07).
What now GarageGames ?
Moderator Note: edited for excessive language. While we understand frustration, please keep in mind that these forums are read by people of all ages and backgrounds. We try to stay as lenient as possible, but have to maintain decorum.
to build a game which is based on Your engine (TGEA) which I bought couple of months ago.
Not that that I'm pissed of the lack of documentation,
Not that I'm pissed off with the rate of updates,
It's that I just found out that neither of Your products,
Show Tool Pro , and THE MOST ------- CRUCIAL PART OF OUR PRODUCTION pipeline,
Constuctor 1.0-1.02
DOESN'T ------- WORK.
No refunds by the company who sold these laptops,
as Open GL SHOULD work out from the box, right ?
AND there weren't a ------- single thread in Your ------- messy forums with an indication that
this chipset (or that Constructor/ShowTool are OpenGL ONLY) weren't supported.
ANY other game + application which uses OpenGL (any version) as native API works just fine (except Modo),
INCLUDING old games/applications like Quake 2/3, Java OGL for e.g. work as they should.
I'm a good customer but this is a way ------- too much.
Oh, I and forgot to mention that and our government (U.S based investors too) funded prototype production starts at 30.7.2007 (70/30/07).
What now GarageGames ?
Moderator Note: edited for excessive language. While we understand frustration, please keep in mind that these forums are read by people of all ages and backgrounds. We try to stay as lenient as possible, but have to maintain decorum.
#2
07/25/2007 (11:10 am)
Maybe the first thing you should do is actually write down your problem in coherent thoughts. Pissed off ranting doesn't get anybody anywhere.
#3
It's kinda hard the get any console logs, as the these applications crash / and the Vista too
before I can say F*ck.
And the almighty Vista (somewhat pun intented) can't even list what version of Open GL we
are using.
But as stated before Open GL IS resident and working.
ATI Radeon Mobile X1400 driver version (latest) is 8.31.100.2
And I'm sorry that in my latest outburst I forgot to mention that the TGEA 1.01 works just fine :)
07/25/2007 (11:25 am)
Yeah ,the laptops we are using are Vista Home Premium.It's kinda hard the get any console logs, as the these applications crash / and the Vista too
before I can say F*ck.
And the almighty Vista (somewhat pun intented) can't even list what version of Open GL we
are using.
But as stated before Open GL IS resident and working.
ATI Radeon Mobile X1400 driver version (latest) is 8.31.100.2
And I'm sorry that in my latest outburst I forgot to mention that the TGEA 1.01 works just fine :)
#4
Putting some many sware words next to GG product names makes it look like they are to blame. (and makes you look stupid and arrogant)
07/25/2007 (11:38 am)
I have Vista on my pc and laptop, Ctor and Show tool pro both work for me... Putting some many sware words next to GG product names makes it look like they are to blame. (and makes you look stupid and arrogant)
#5
We aren't going to be able to hand you an immediate solution from our end unfortunately, although I've elevated this up the chain. It's not a new issue to us (we've seen it in TGE 1.5.2 and ATI cards on Vista as well), and the only immediate suggestion I can offer is to see if you can find any fallback ATI drivers that are more successful for you.
Not the answer you want to hear I understand, given your cost outlay, but it's the best I can do in the short term while the issue is elevated for consideration.
07/25/2007 (11:39 am)
I was concerned that it was Vista to be honest--ATI's (as well as Microsoft's) Vista OpenGL drivers are extremely focused on a very small subset of OpenGL, which works only for a subset of all products that use OpenGL. Quite a few of the OpenGL features Constructor especially uses for cross-platform compatibility capabilities are not commonly implemented in ATI drivers for Vista.We aren't going to be able to hand you an immediate solution from our end unfortunately, although I've elevated this up the chain. It's not a new issue to us (we've seen it in TGE 1.5.2 and ATI cards on Vista as well), and the only immediate suggestion I can offer is to see if you can find any fallback ATI drivers that are more successful for you.
Not the answer you want to hear I understand, given your cost outlay, but it's the best I can do in the short term while the issue is elevated for consideration.
#6
07/25/2007 (11:54 am)
If it comes to it, you might want to see if you can get a copy of XP Pro for each one of those laptops, then just avoid all the Vista issues. 
#7
07/25/2007 (11:56 am)
I'm a vista user also. Constructor and Showtool both work fine for me. However it should be noted that their performance is a lot slower than they were on XP, which I'm sure has to do with most of the card manufacturers not really having good GL support for vista as of yet.
#8
Are You responsible for a team of 20 people and for Your personal income (wife w/2 grls the latter is 2 month old, )
being arrogant and stupid ?
To Joseph Zepp:
I don't really know what to do.
Except to buy a laptop with Nvidia graphics card.
And at my point of view that isn't ethically right decision to do.
?
07/25/2007 (12:03 pm)
To Joseph HelmAre You responsible for a team of 20 people and for Your personal income (wife w/2 grls the latter is 2 month old, )
being arrogant and stupid ?
To Joseph Zepp:
I don't really know what to do.
Except to buy a laptop with Nvidia graphics card.
And at my point of view that isn't ethically right decision to do.
?
#9
@Petteri: I've described our only short term solution for you--ATI card OpenGL implementations are extremely limited, and there isn't anything we can do about that. I'm currently searching for alternative solutions, but they will take time to find, vet, and determine if they are appropriate.
07/25/2007 (12:07 pm)
Guys, I agree the thread wasn't presented in a way to excite people to being helpful, but I've edited the post, and would ask that we move past the tone of the post to possible solutions.@Petteri: I've described our only short term solution for you--ATI card OpenGL implementations are extremely limited, and there isn't anything we can do about that. I'm currently searching for alternative solutions, but they will take time to find, vet, and determine if they are appropriate.
#10
07/25/2007 (12:19 pm)
I just removed Vista from my laptop... it just isn't ready for people to do development work on and many applications still don't work properly on it.
#11
@ Stephen Zepp : But as is in my position You're eventually asking me to replace about 10
(bought today) laptops with pre-installed OS:s (Vista) with Windows XP ?!
What do You suggest ?
07/25/2007 (12:23 pm)
@ J.C Smith You're good to go as I stated before : these applications doesn't work at ALL.@ Stephen Zepp : But as is in my position You're eventually asking me to replace about 10
(bought today) laptops with pre-installed OS:s (Vista) with Windows XP ?!
What do You suggest ?
#12
07/25/2007 (12:25 pm)
I can't make that decision for you Petteri, I can only describe what's happening, and why. As I said, I'm looking for other possible solutions, but it's not going to happen any time soon.
#13
But so as it seems, I'll have to get rid of 10 ATI based laptops and invest
for a laptops with Nvidia based cards.
Please make a sticky of this thread.
07/25/2007 (12:35 pm)
Thank You all guys, the most of the steam has been let out :)But so as it seems, I'll have to get rid of 10 ATI based laptops and invest
for a laptops with Nvidia based cards.
Please make a sticky of this thread.
#14
EDIT: I want to also mention that Tom Spillman's post has merit, although again I'm not suggesting you do anything specific, just stating that his point is a valid one.
07/25/2007 (12:37 pm)
Actually, if you go that route, all you really need to do is to replace the cards themselves? If integrated, I'd guess they have the ability to allow add-on cards?EDIT: I want to also mention that Tom Spillman's post has merit, although again I'm not suggesting you do anything specific, just stating that his point is a valid one.
#15
07/25/2007 (12:45 pm)
Please make a sticky of this thread. 
#16
2. If you change the prefs, change them to fullscreen instead of DX first, this should already do the trick until AMD gets their drivers fully working. OpenGL in fullscreen mode should work without the drivers beeing adapted especially like OpenGL windowed mode.
Alternative: exchange the vista license for XP, any manufacturer has to do that and this will fix the problem as well. As the systems don't have any DX10 card, there is no reason not to consider this step to prevent the other problems you most likely will have anyway due to Vista at least until SP1 is released
07/26/2007 (1:45 am)
1. Both apps could be run in DX as well, they use TGE. Just change the prefs (prefs.cs). But I would not do that, its significantly slower.2. If you change the prefs, change them to fullscreen instead of DX first, this should already do the trick until AMD gets their drivers fully working. OpenGL in fullscreen mode should work without the drivers beeing adapted especially like OpenGL windowed mode.
Alternative: exchange the vista license for XP, any manufacturer has to do that and this will fix the problem as well. As the systems don't have any DX10 card, there is no reason not to consider this step to prevent the other problems you most likely will have anyway due to Vista at least until SP1 is released
#17
07/26/2007 (3:48 am)
Thank You, but can you point out what I should exactly change ?
#18
So I think I'll invest in Sony Vaio laptop
And the question goes:
Is there any known problems with this following setup,
especially with Constructor & ShowTool Pro ?
Intel
07/26/2007 (4:48 am)
I tried everything, but still didn't get it to work.So I think I'll invest in Sony Vaio laptop
And the question goes:
Is there any known problems with this following setup,
especially with Constructor & ShowTool Pro ?
Intel
#19
07/26/2007 (5:05 am)
Seems that I cant post the specs here WTF, it just cuts my lines
#20
07/26/2007 (5:07 am)
Intel Core Duo (1800mhz) Nvidia GeForce 8400M GT , 2 gigs RAM Vista Home Premium 
Torque 3D Owner Stephen Zepp
Can you give additional information regarding the OS, OpenGL driver device information, and reports of your console.log for the applications you are having issues with?
We also need descriptions of "doesn't (snipped) work". There is no way at all to even begin to help you with your issues with that type of description. If it's visual artifacts, screenshots are also useful. If it's simply failure of OpenGL extension support from the video card driver, that is commonly reported in the console.log.