Why are programmers so hard to find?

#21 Just to throw my two cents in... As a coder, I get frightened away from people that think 'game-making' first, and software development second. I'm a contractor that has worked on many non-game related products and a few game projects... For some reason, the game community (at least the small-timers) seem to think they are generally exempt from the normal software development process. If a producer/designer really wants to attract a skilled and experienced programmer, they really need to sell their process and organization more than the 'project'. Most software developers have horror stories about their first jobs and how they'll never fall into certain traps again. When you've reached the stage of needing code written, you should have a fairly bullet-proof design and have your %&#^! together. :) Also, if it's your first time don't expect to land talent with 5+ years in the biz... scale your project to meet your expected resources.
It's been said several times before in this thread... professionalism is the key.

#22 Im 100% Agreeing to that last reply :)

And I think that this is a very important point not only for coder but for anyone you want to hire.

Most beginners tends to think that developing games is an easy process. They wake up in the morning between 2 classes then tell themselves : I think I will make a commercial game and make tons of money!....

I dont want to be sarastic there because thats a bit how I began a couple of years ago =oP

Its only a reminder to the new comers in the Indie games community that developing a good looking game that you are willing to sell or not is a very lenghty process even more if you are not experimented in the software industry or anything else that looks alike.

There is no industry that needs more planning than this one IMHO. There's no easy way to do it and there's even more no easy way at all for fast money as some may think.

Anyway, I had to write something to feel better :) If it is dull bare with me :)

Just a reminder anyway.

#23 I think there is another problem, a lot of programmers who are trying to break into the games market don't have that feeling of experience, they may be technically good, I feel I have a good grasp of what I'm doing, but when I come across a project with no other coders I get worried, because I know everything falls onto me and what happens if I'm not as a good as I thought I was. Sure it's a little niggling point, but a real one. I would hate to break a team apart simply through my own lack of knowledge, so I'd really look for a project where they were looking for support programmers with a lead already inplace. It is probably the same for a number of other coders...

Owen

#24 just had to reply to this last post. as a designer looking for programmers, i can speak for a lot of us when i say that it will not hurt our feelings if you jump in, do some work, decide for whatever reason the projects not for you, and leave. we will be that much closer to our goals. it sounds corny, but thinking that programmers might be holding back because of the workload - hurts. it hurts because ANY help is better than none. and just having a programmer who knows what he is doing to give his opinion on the doability of a design and to refine the docs is a help. im gonna go cry now...

also, im hearing a lot that art is a strong attraction to programmers, but im confused as to what kind of art youre talking about. models, textures, or are you talking about concept art/graphic design and the like? if youre talking about the latter, please let me know on this thread so i can revamp my site. traditional art/drawing/graphic design is the one thing im actually really good at, and if it'll help me recruit, i can give my site better concept art than most professional games. hell, i figured concept art was the least important part of a game.

great posts everyone, it helps to learn about indie games from the guys who make them...

#25 As a programmer, I would have to say that art can be very important for attracting me to a project. I want to see something substantial that shows me you are serious about a game whether it be concept art, 3d models, or even a solid design doc. If the artists have already taken the time to create some artwork for the game then I know that they are that much more serious about actually building it.

#26 I guess the main point is that ANY good quality work already done on a title will attract new people. Artwork being the most obvious of those. If you have
good quality concept art, I'll know at least one artist with skill is on the team.

I think artwork is a huge draw, certainly is for me. Doesnt have to be finished models, more concept stuff to show that SOMEONE has a strong vision.

Phil.

#27 Ack. It isn't hard work that I find a turn off. Some of the mods I've worked on have been pretty tough codewise, and very time consuming. I think I'd just like to launch into a project not as lead programmer. Sure if an idea excites me enough I'll pitch in and have a go, I'd just hate to be the spanner in the works as it were.
(Perhaps I'm just insecure :) )

Yes an idea is great but to show that someone has put atleast a few hours into content is also a great asset. However that works both ways. A programmer loves to see artwork for the project and the design doc, why because it shows some commitment, but an artist likes to see some code and a design doc, because it shows some commitment. Best thing to do is probably approach people who are registered as programmers in the job section but aren't attached to a company, sure some may say no, but if you ask that is the worst they will say :)

Owen

#28 cool, guess its time to break out the old drawing board (pun intended - sorry)

#29 I dont know for me the hardest part is finding the modelers.

We have a lot of programmers, a couple sketch artists, no modelers.

#30 For modelers, you have to get out of garagegames.com. Lots of people who do 3D modeling do not do it for game development. That is a reason why they wouldn't come here. Cya.

-Brock

#31 I think it would help if you specified what the programmer is expected to do.

Math modeler...physics, movement, collisions etc. This is the base on which the game is built.

Code Wizard...this person can take the input from the math modeler and provide tight, robust code.

Game programmer...this person has more detailed knowledge of the game engine and the platform API's. Uses the input from the code wizard.

All three talents are needed and must be able to work together and with the artists and 3D modelers.

Just my opinion, and I am the foremost expert on my opinion.

#32 TG-"What could we do to help people and projects connect? ... Any thoughts?"

I would think contacting Universities and just asking their computer departments to post some info might be a good idea (someone above suggested I think).

Also, though it may not currently be feasable, I think some sort of yearly convention might be well received. Could even be a money maker for GG. There could be speakers about various topics, open forums for discussion of different genres and such (I know we can do it here, but its not the same). Of course I would think just expanding contacts and meeting people on a personal level would benefit many folks as well. I know I would be into it....just a thought.

#33 I am an artist and programmer, recently graduated from DigiPen with a CS degree in real time interactive simulation. Before that I had 3 years of art school. I am currently starting up an indie game company, making a game as a one man team. So, I have a fairly unique viewpoint of seeing this problem from many sides.

Programmers look for well managed projects that allow them to focus on what they do best, code. Any programmer worth your time has enough experience to see a doomed project up front. I've personally been on a couple projects that went awry, and I can usually see the warning signs very early on. To keep from getting trivially rejected, make sure you demonstrate how your project avoids three of the most common errors.

1) Lack of Planning - The game is not fully documented and scheduled. This needs to be done before serious development can begin. Don't start coding until you have the Game Concept, Game Design Document, and Technical Design Document finished. You should have a thorough milestone schedule so that you can stay focused and on time.

2) Over ambitious - The project is trying to do too much, and will never be completed. Most developers want to prove themselves to the world, and show off their wonderful collection of game ideas. They try and cram every idea they've ever had about video games into their first project. My advice: stick to what you know, and only have one area of experimental features. Also make sure you have alternatives for anything you haven't done before.

3) Wrong demographic - The game is targeted toward the developer, and not the customer. Most new developers, and many old developers, make games that they want to play. The customer is who will be paying for the game, however, and you need to make a game they want to play if you want to make money. If you are creative enough, you can make a game customers will pay for and is still fun for you to develop and play.

These are three problems that almost all startup indies run into. It's esspecially hard since most indie companies don't have a marketing department to keep them in check.

So, my advice basically sums up to: Show, don't tell, why your game will get finished and make money if you want to attract programmers or other developers to your team. Good luck! :)

#34 This is actually a really good thread, but I didn't realise how old it was until Phil mentioned V12 ;) The fact it's 2 years old and still pretty much still valid shows it's value.

It has also been repeated a good few times since. Would it be possible to add this kind of information to the FAQ section? Since it seems fairly trivia at the moment and could be leveraged a lot better.

#35 There's lots of sites now that sell 3d models for cheap... there's also a bunch of free models. However, you still need an artist to tune it to your game running on Torque.

A couple sites that come to mind immediately...

www.turbosquid.com
www.3dlinks.com

#36 I think it also has to do with time. Artist in general, seems to me, feel the need to create art if at a job or not. Creative people in general are like that.

People who are programmers, like myself, tend to step away from coding when they are not working. Or at least try to go it alone. I know if I program at home its to learn something new or to do something that's different then my job.

In my case, I make a decent living programming. And I haven't seen any projects out there that really provoked my interest enough to motivate me to spend that much time pretty much working for free or on the promise of payment.

Like a lot of people on here have said, there are plenty of free or low cost art work to get a protype going. If you ask me it's easier being a programming looking for art then the other way around.

I also agree that it's easier to get a prototype going.But since some people are artists. posting some good art should spark interest also.

If your a good artist and a good programmer... Then you rock in my book. God knows this stuff isn't easy

#37 Getting good help isn't easy I know I hire and fire people .. yes I am the bad guy :). The best way to get people for a project is this.

1) Write your idea down .. does no good if it is in your head.
2) One project at a time .. ie Good direction for the project at hand, not having three game ideas and trying to do them all.
3) Find someone fresh with potential to create concept art .. I see post all the time
4) Use your writings and concept art to get more artist 2D, 3D, Level Designers .. if your story and concept art is good you will get people that will inquire.
5)Give your fellow team members direction and management .. If you do not do this they will eventually leave.
6)Faith .. I know that sounds corny but if you do not show faith and strong convictions to your project others will see that.

I have never worked on a game project that I felt had the first two down so I have never fully worked on a game. However I help manage over 11+ employees it is not easy work keeping them motivated but it is done for the good of the team, so at the end of the day they can go home and not have to worry if the company they work for is going to be there tomorrow. Keeping the team motivated after you have one is a discussion for another subject.

#38 I am going to post based on the topic.

Programmers are hard to find as they live in caves, usually.