What about copy-protection of the games themselves?
by Hap · in General Discussion · 05/09/2001 (4:06 pm) · 40 replies
Forget about "piracy" of the engine... a better question is what about piracy of the game you make and sell on Garagegames.com?
As I understand it, Garagegames.com will be distributing the game via a download. Unless there are mastered CD or the game is subscription-based, how can you implement copy protection? I believe even 3rd party tools like from Macrovision require a special CD duplication process.
I'm aware you'll never completely stop the hardcore pirates, but that isn't the problem -- those guys just don't pay for software anyways (in general). It is the casual pirates which affect our sales. What is stop someone from giving the downloaded game to their friends.
As I understand it, Garagegames.com will be distributing the game via a download. Unless there are mastered CD or the game is subscription-based, how can you implement copy protection? I believe even 3rd party tools like from Macrovision require a special CD duplication process.
I'm aware you'll never completely stop the hardcore pirates, but that isn't the problem -- those guys just don't pay for software anyways (in general). It is the casual pirates which affect our sales. What is stop someone from giving the downloaded game to their friends.
#2
05/09/2001 (5:20 pm)
One of the great truths of computers is, if someone wants to hack it, they will. This may seem somewhat strange...but if someone hacks/pirates your game...that means they want it. If my first game is hacked/pirated I will take it as a great compliment =)
#3
How promising do they have to be?
And what if your game has a lot of artwork? And takes up a lot of space, and say someone with slow connection wanted it??
05/09/2001 (5:28 pm)
I just noticed in the FAQ, it says, "most games will be free", and "games that look promising will go into the 'pay-bin'".How promising do they have to be?
And what if your game has a lot of artwork? And takes up a lot of space, and say someone with slow connection wanted it??
#4
>Once someone has a link to download, their mates can download it too.
>If it's small enough a download on a 56K modem, then it would be easy to send to your mates.
Even if it is just a matter of passing copies on to their friends, they are people who may have bought it if the original buyer told them it was good.
But anyway, in the quantities I would expect to sell, hacking would be a (very) small worry.
05/09/2001 (5:34 pm)
I think that I too would be amazed if someone actually bothered to hack a game of mine, but I do think that selling on GG, but then distributing on CD would help a lot.>Once someone has a link to download, their mates can download it too.
>If it's small enough a download on a 56K modem, then it would be easy to send to your mates.
Even if it is just a matter of passing copies on to their friends, they are people who may have bought it if the original buyer told them it was good.
But anyway, in the quantities I would expect to sell, hacking would be a (very) small worry.
#5
Give them a decent price, and they will pay.
Couldn't resist. Come to think of it, I never can.
Scott Rutledge
05/09/2001 (5:45 pm)
I think one other thing to keep in mind is the prices we set for our games. A lot of the 'casual' pirates do so because of the high prices of most decent games. If we can offer good, entertaining games for a much more reasonable price, I think most people will be more inclined to just pay for it. Not everyone is a crook at heart; a lot of them just see $70 as a little much to pay for a game.Give them a decent price, and they will pay.
Couldn't resist. Come to think of it, I never can.
Scott Rutledge
#6
Pat is right. Hackers will break your copy protection almost before you get it installed. It just doesn't work.
Through most of my career I have chosen not to use copy protection. I feel it hurts legitimate users and doesn't stop illegitimate users.
Jeff Tunnell GG
05/09/2001 (9:19 pm)
I like the concept of giving users a good price, lots of value, and an extremely fun game. Make it so good that even the pirates want to pay, and you will do well.Pat is right. Hackers will break your copy protection almost before you get it installed. It just doesn't work.
Through most of my career I have chosen not to use copy protection. I feel it hurts legitimate users and doesn't stop illegitimate users.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#7
I'm not worried about the hardcore pirates or the people searching for a crack. It is the very casual pirates that's the problem. Price is only one factor in piracy -- the other is CONVIENCE. If it is easier to get a CD burn of your game from a friend than go online and buy it, some people will just do that. Some people download MP3s because, when Napster was still easy to navigate, it is just easier to download a song than go to the music store to buy it. How many people bought Quake3 because it was too much hassle to deal with the finding new cracks and serial numbers to play online?
It doesn't matter if even a program like CloneCD can break the copy protection on the CD. Your typical user with Adaptec Easy CD Creator can't simply copy your game on a whim. Many people have CDRs, but not everyone has or wants to get copy protection twarting programs -- nor does everyone has access to W4r3zland FTP. Bleem was great seller even though cracks were out for ages and with each new version; getting cracks were just too much work.
However I suspect if your game is POPULAR, someone will know a friend who has a copy and, if it is easy enough, will get a copy off his friend. That is the type of person that would likely buy the game if he didn't get the copy.
There is one other point about convience. This is a game being sold ONLINE. For many people, entering credit card numbers or begging a parent for a credit card number is VERY inconvient. Their will very law-abiding citizens who would have paid for it in the store, but online downloads is just a hassle especially for people without broadband and only 1 phone line. That in itself could justify getting it from your friends especially if it is easy to do.
Better question is how many DOWNLOAD ONLY programs have you or anyone you know ever purchased? People would rather buy Norton Utlities in the store than download it from DigitalRiver even though DigitalRiver gives around a 30% discount.
I take it from Jeff Tunnell's response that garageGames.com doesn't have any plans to master CDs, let alone master "special" ones that have copy protection.
05/09/2001 (10:52 pm)
I think you guys are missing the point.I'm not worried about the hardcore pirates or the people searching for a crack. It is the very casual pirates that's the problem. Price is only one factor in piracy -- the other is CONVIENCE. If it is easier to get a CD burn of your game from a friend than go online and buy it, some people will just do that. Some people download MP3s because, when Napster was still easy to navigate, it is just easier to download a song than go to the music store to buy it. How many people bought Quake3 because it was too much hassle to deal with the finding new cracks and serial numbers to play online?
It doesn't matter if even a program like CloneCD can break the copy protection on the CD. Your typical user with Adaptec Easy CD Creator can't simply copy your game on a whim. Many people have CDRs, but not everyone has or wants to get copy protection twarting programs -- nor does everyone has access to W4r3zland FTP. Bleem was great seller even though cracks were out for ages and with each new version; getting cracks were just too much work.
However I suspect if your game is POPULAR, someone will know a friend who has a copy and, if it is easy enough, will get a copy off his friend. That is the type of person that would likely buy the game if he didn't get the copy.
There is one other point about convience. This is a game being sold ONLINE. For many people, entering credit card numbers or begging a parent for a credit card number is VERY inconvient. Their will very law-abiding citizens who would have paid for it in the store, but online downloads is just a hassle especially for people without broadband and only 1 phone line. That in itself could justify getting it from your friends especially if it is easy to do.
Better question is how many DOWNLOAD ONLY programs have you or anyone you know ever purchased? People would rather buy Norton Utlities in the store than download it from DigitalRiver even though DigitalRiver gives around a 30% discount.
I take it from Jeff Tunnell's response that garageGames.com doesn't have any plans to master CDs, let alone master "special" ones that have copy protection.
#8
The way basic copy protection works is to have a unique key for each user. The game won't run without this key. If you tie the key to the user's name, then hopefully they'll feel cautious about distributing it. Our policy is to treat the game as a service more than a product, and to offer regular updates and new features to registered users. If a user key is found to be in use by more than one person, we can reserve the right to terminate their right to download future updates (though we'd only do this in extreme circumstances).
It's also a good idea to remain inexpensive.
We are soon going to release our game Avoyd (demo already out) for electronic purchase and download, so we'll keep this site updated as to how it goes.
Doug Binks EnkiSoftware Limited
DETERMINED HACKERS NOTES:-
First off, you can't prevent a determined cracker from overwriting copy protection of a single player game. Even online authorisation can be worked around, simply by replacing that part of the code (note: online authorisation is workable for online games).
However, distribution of such a cracked executable would be manifestly illegal. Currently, sites such as gamecopyworld exist because in some countries (such as many in Europe) the customer has a right to make a back up copy which works. However, since electronically distributed products will probably be downloaded as a self extracting file, this file can be kept as the copy.
Someone could distribute the game and the copy protection 'key', but again this would be illegal.
If GG (with a little help from their friends) can find illegal copies on the net, and send the site a lawyers note, then most sites will remove the content. If GG can't find copies, then the average customer can't. Some sites may exist in regions beyond the legal
reach of GG, and something needs to be thought up about this.
05/10/2001 (2:38 am)
As someone intimately involved with copy protection of games distributed online, I thought I'd share some of my research. There is also a thread on anti-cheating which is pertinent to this topic.The way basic copy protection works is to have a unique key for each user. The game won't run without this key. If you tie the key to the user's name, then hopefully they'll feel cautious about distributing it. Our policy is to treat the game as a service more than a product, and to offer regular updates and new features to registered users. If a user key is found to be in use by more than one person, we can reserve the right to terminate their right to download future updates (though we'd only do this in extreme circumstances).
It's also a good idea to remain inexpensive.
We are soon going to release our game Avoyd (demo already out) for electronic purchase and download, so we'll keep this site updated as to how it goes.
Doug Binks EnkiSoftware Limited
DETERMINED HACKERS NOTES:-
First off, you can't prevent a determined cracker from overwriting copy protection of a single player game. Even online authorisation can be worked around, simply by replacing that part of the code (note: online authorisation is workable for online games).
However, distribution of such a cracked executable would be manifestly illegal. Currently, sites such as gamecopyworld exist because in some countries (such as many in Europe) the customer has a right to make a back up copy which works. However, since electronically distributed products will probably be downloaded as a self extracting file, this file can be kept as the copy.
Someone could distribute the game and the copy protection 'key', but again this would be illegal.
If GG (with a little help from their friends) can find illegal copies on the net, and send the site a lawyers note, then most sites will remove the content. If GG can't find copies, then the average customer can't. Some sites may exist in regions beyond the legal
reach of GG, and something needs to be thought up about this.
#9
How would you stop CD keys from being cracked or key-gened?
05/10/2001 (7:53 am)
One last thought... Treating the game like a service is a very good idea... Give them a good reason to want the service a lot. Updates, patches, bug fixes, game add-ons, advanced options, more modes, that sort of thing. So you could purposely make the game not have everything the user may want, and offer the download to the registered ones (which would also lower the download file size for the game if you have certain things seperate). However, this requires much more work, but should boost sales and reviews.How would you stop CD keys from being cracked or key-gened?
#10
Bzzzt! Wrong.
Most illegitimate users simply obtain warez/cracks created by aforementioned hardcore hackers. "Casual hackers" will also do this if they're not able to break the protection. So stopping the casuals simply creates another warez-site consumer, which you said you're not worried about. You didn't solve anything.
Like it's been said, you can't really stop the hardcore guys. You can, to some degree, stop warez sites - there's been some recent prosecutions of some guys running warez sites. Hopefully people start getting more aggressive and kicking these warez-site's asses.
This isn't to say you shouldn't do anything at all. I think that copy protection can at least slow down the dissemination of warez/cracks for your game. It's just that finding the right balance between too-easy and too-inconvenient-for-my-paying-customers isn't always satisfactorily found.
"How many people bought Quake3 because it was too much hassle to deal with the finding new cracks and serial numbers to play online?"
Not I. I bought it after playing the demo. Same with Unreal Tournament, and dozens of other games.
05/10/2001 (8:51 am)
"It is the very casual pirates that's the problem."Bzzzt! Wrong.
Most illegitimate users simply obtain warez/cracks created by aforementioned hardcore hackers. "Casual hackers" will also do this if they're not able to break the protection. So stopping the casuals simply creates another warez-site consumer, which you said you're not worried about. You didn't solve anything.
Like it's been said, you can't really stop the hardcore guys. You can, to some degree, stop warez sites - there's been some recent prosecutions of some guys running warez sites. Hopefully people start getting more aggressive and kicking these warez-site's asses.
This isn't to say you shouldn't do anything at all. I think that copy protection can at least slow down the dissemination of warez/cracks for your game. It's just that finding the right balance between too-easy and too-inconvenient-for-my-paying-customers isn't always satisfactorily found.
"How many people bought Quake3 because it was too much hassle to deal with the finding new cracks and serial numbers to play online?"
Not I. I bought it after playing the demo. Same with Unreal Tournament, and dozens of other games.
#11
Here is an idea which is somewhat draconian, and over the top, but which we may have to implement if the game is hacked alot.
The game uses a key to allow it to run, using a public/private key arrangement. This way no-one can create new keys, though they can by-pass the security routines through modifying the software.
Another key is used to gain access to the site for updates. When an update requested, a new key is issued so that the old key no longer works (this could be done on an interval basis, ie 5 downloads to each new key if you like).
In this manner, the game can be copied, but significant (and more importantly maintained) effort must go into getting the updates cracked. Buy the game and do away with the hassle.
I think Brian is correct in saying that we need to make some effort to stop copy-theft, but at the end of the day this is a legally protected issue which needs to be dealt with properly. Sometimes I wish that more legal effort was put into cracking down on warez (note, not so much gamecopyworld as there is a legal use for this), and less on tools like DeCSS etc. which may have legal uses ( at least in some countries they do!).
Hopefully GG will have a technical and legal solution to this for those of us going this route. As we're distributing software soon I have already developed our own solution, which is hopefully sufficient without placing too much hassle on the customer.
Doug EnkiSoftware Limited
Edit:
Somehow I missed Jeff's post. From this it seems that GG will not offer a copy-protection scheme, and even advise against doing so.
I agree that copy protection for CDs is a bad idea, in fact it could be maintained that it is illegal in Europe as customers have a legal righ to making a functional backup. For downloadable games I am currently not sure. Perhaps we'll give no copy protection a go (but maintaining restricted access to the registered user part of our site, much as GG will do for V12). Any thoughts?
05/10/2001 (9:53 am)
Chris - unfortuneatly you can't stop the key for the game itself from being cracked, but you can stop the cracks from being able to access your website for updates, or at least make it extremely hard work.Here is an idea which is somewhat draconian, and over the top, but which we may have to implement if the game is hacked alot.
The game uses a key to allow it to run, using a public/private key arrangement. This way no-one can create new keys, though they can by-pass the security routines through modifying the software.
Another key is used to gain access to the site for updates. When an update requested, a new key is issued so that the old key no longer works (this could be done on an interval basis, ie 5 downloads to each new key if you like).
In this manner, the game can be copied, but significant (and more importantly maintained) effort must go into getting the updates cracked. Buy the game and do away with the hassle.
I think Brian is correct in saying that we need to make some effort to stop copy-theft, but at the end of the day this is a legally protected issue which needs to be dealt with properly. Sometimes I wish that more legal effort was put into cracking down on warez (note, not so much gamecopyworld as there is a legal use for this), and less on tools like DeCSS etc. which may have legal uses ( at least in some countries they do!).
Hopefully GG will have a technical and legal solution to this for those of us going this route. As we're distributing software soon I have already developed our own solution, which is hopefully sufficient without placing too much hassle on the customer.
Doug EnkiSoftware Limited
Edit:
Somehow I missed Jeff's post. From this it seems that GG will not offer a copy-protection scheme, and even advise against doing so.
I agree that copy protection for CDs is a bad idea, in fact it could be maintained that it is illegal in Europe as customers have a legal righ to making a functional backup. For downloadable games I am currently not sure. Perhaps we'll give no copy protection a go (but maintaining restricted access to the registered user part of our site, much as GG will do for V12). Any thoughts?
#12
1) Some people think that if a product is good and inexpensive that people would buy it rather than pirate it. This is not true, many people pirate Milkshape despite the $20 price tag. (it makes me sick that people would do that especially when Mete, the guy who wrote Milkshape, is working alone to produce such a wonderful product)
2) Some people think that pirates would not bother pirating software if it is not a hit title. This is wrong too. I was informed recently that my first published title (which is a simple low budget racing game) was on a warez site. I checked it out and sure enough, there it was. I was shocked. Then I realized that being a small time game (ie not a big hit) that as a percentage this was hurting me more than it would hurt a hit title. The number of copies pirated could possibly equal or exceed the number sold!
05/10/2001 (12:16 pm)
I just thought I would mention a couple of things:1) Some people think that if a product is good and inexpensive that people would buy it rather than pirate it. This is not true, many people pirate Milkshape despite the $20 price tag. (it makes me sick that people would do that especially when Mete, the guy who wrote Milkshape, is working alone to produce such a wonderful product)
2) Some people think that pirates would not bother pirating software if it is not a hit title. This is wrong too. I was informed recently that my first published title (which is a simple low budget racing game) was on a warez site. I checked it out and sure enough, there it was. I was shocked. Then I realized that being a small time game (ie not a big hit) that as a percentage this was hurting me more than it would hurt a hit title. The number of copies pirated could possibly equal or exceed the number sold!
#13
protection will/can be hacked. It seems to me
that the best example of protection, is the same
as half-life and T2, where a cd-key is authenticated
on the server prior to being allowed to play. While this
type of protection doesn't help offline games, this method
suits V12 the best. My only question, is will GG aid us by
setting up this type of system.
Mark
05/10/2001 (12:51 pm)
As many people have said in this forum, all copy protection will/can be hacked. It seems to me
that the best example of protection, is the same
as half-life and T2, where a cd-key is authenticated
on the server prior to being allowed to play. While this
type of protection doesn't help offline games, this method
suits V12 the best. My only question, is will GG aid us by
setting up this type of system.
Mark
#14
I personally have yet to see some hard numbers on game piracy.. nothing that comes close to justify the price jumps in recent years anyway.
05/10/2001 (12:55 pm)
I personally do not believe that 'high security' protections are what is needed for this problem. We need to create a stigma around software pirates.. instead of calling them 'hackers', call them what they are... thieves. Other industries have done this to great success... for example, Cable TV and the music industry have publically fought back to make examples out of people that rip them off. Case in point.. I can walk into a music store and buy a brand new music CD for about the same price I could buy a CD five years ago...even with this Napster and mp3 turmoil. Meanwhile, the gaming industry has steady rising prices that many attribute to piracy. I personally have yet to see some hard numbers on game piracy.. nothing that comes close to justify the price jumps in recent years anyway.
#15
I think you don't understand the concept of a "casual pirate". A casual pirate is a person usually with only fundamental understanding of computers who make copies because it can be easily done. A casual pirate is a mom, a friend, a high school student, the plumber who fixed your pipes. These people aren't malicious, they make copies of music CDs for friends or VHS copies of tapes from Blockbuster for personal use.
A casual pirate doesn't access to warez sites. Don't be fecious with me -- do YOU have access to warez sites? Brain, I don't know how you operate, but I can promise you most people on this forum aren't part of the l33t and got a list of warez sites to visit. And you can't just type in "Tribes 2" in Yahoo to get a warez copy.
You make it sound like downloading pirated software is easy as pie and second nature. Hmm... Makes me wonder about you.
Doug Binks,
Tell me how it goes. It sounds like a solution.
I particularly agree with that line "If GG can't find copies, then the average customer can't." That's what I'm aiming for.
05/10/2001 (1:02 pm)
Brain Smith,I think you don't understand the concept of a "casual pirate". A casual pirate is a person usually with only fundamental understanding of computers who make copies because it can be easily done. A casual pirate is a mom, a friend, a high school student, the plumber who fixed your pipes. These people aren't malicious, they make copies of music CDs for friends or VHS copies of tapes from Blockbuster for personal use.
A casual pirate doesn't access to warez sites. Don't be fecious with me -- do YOU have access to warez sites? Brain, I don't know how you operate, but I can promise you most people on this forum aren't part of the l33t and got a list of warez sites to visit. And you can't just type in "Tribes 2" in Yahoo to get a warez copy.
You make it sound like downloading pirated software is easy as pie and second nature. Hmm... Makes me wonder about you.
Doug Binks,
Tell me how it goes. It sounds like a solution.
I particularly agree with that line "If GG can't find copies, then the average customer can't." That's what I'm aiming for.
#16
If you're realistic and smart about things like textures, compression, etc, you will have a very, VERY hard time creating enough artwork and content to make CD distribution necessary. And by the time you do, you've got a pretty content-rich game.
I AM concerned about this, though -- I'm sure there is going to be some kind of announcement about this later on, but dammit we really need to know NOW whether or not our games will be distributable on CD is we desire it. If not, I can see a large number of the bigger, more talented dev teams moving their projects elsewhere.
05/10/2001 (1:16 pm)
I suspect that for any game that really requires it, GG will arrange some kind of hardcopy distribution -- probably have people buy the CD online.If you're realistic and smart about things like textures, compression, etc, you will have a very, VERY hard time creating enough artwork and content to make CD distribution necessary. And by the time you do, you've got a pretty content-rich game.
I AM concerned about this, though -- I'm sure there is going to be some kind of announcement about this later on, but dammit we really need to know NOW whether or not our games will be distributable on CD is we desire it. If not, I can see a large number of the bigger, more talented dev teams moving their projects elsewhere.
#17
Well, pirates of the uber-casual variety that you mention aren't nearly as significant as the slightly more technically minded variety. Most piracy involves people who frequently play games, and are more knowledgeable about computers - not mom and pop who bought a PC just to run Quicken.
Anyways, downloading warez IS easy if you're looking for warez. I have done it before, to be honest, so I am aware of how readily visible warez is. Go to Google.com and type warez "unreal tournament" and you'll get back 71 pages of matches. Sure, not all actually point to pages with the warez itself, but all one has to do is browse the links one by one.
My only question, is will GG aid us by
setting up this type of system...
Well Mark, my guess is no. Having a central server would be your responsibility. Since it's not part of a pay-to-play model (a la MMORPGs), there's no reason for GG to get involved.
05/10/2001 (3:32 pm)
Yeesh, when you use the full name like that it feels like I'm in trouble or something. :-)Well, pirates of the uber-casual variety that you mention aren't nearly as significant as the slightly more technically minded variety. Most piracy involves people who frequently play games, and are more knowledgeable about computers - not mom and pop who bought a PC just to run Quicken.
Anyways, downloading warez IS easy if you're looking for warez. I have done it before, to be honest, so I am aware of how readily visible warez is. Go to Google.com and type warez "unreal tournament" and you'll get back 71 pages of matches. Sure, not all actually point to pages with the warez itself, but all one has to do is browse the links one by one.
My only question, is will GG aid us by
setting up this type of system...
Well Mark, my guess is no. Having a central server would be your responsibility. Since it's not part of a pay-to-play model (a la MMORPGs), there's no reason for GG to get involved.
#18
Sorry about using your full name. Force of habit. :)
On to the subject though.
I typed in Unreal Tournament and looked those matches and links. GUESS WHAT. Any "warez" of UT is actually a link to porno site or the files with completely link dead. In fact there were so many "see my dorm" and "ugly mature sex" pop-ups ads, I had load up a pop-up stopper just to close my IE. Each pop-up just spawned 2 more pop-ups when I closed it. Even IF a download would start, you would get less than 1kbs and there's no garantee that file is good or all 300 of the zips are actually there.
So there you go. Those so-called warez sites are all fake.
That just brings me back to subject of the uber-casual pirate. They can't get Unreal Tournament warez through "normal" means of searching on the Internet. GO AHEAD AND TRY! Show me a link! Ah you know I'm right, warez just aren't THAT easy to get online.
So where does the uber-casual pirate get this software. From a friend. Either sent through ICQ or physically copied. Do you really want to argue that point? That's who we want to stop. Stop the average guy from effortlessly copying the program.
Forget about the hardcore l33t h4x0r. He's got his super secret FTP, IRC channel, or web site. But it isn't open to the public. Those people are in the minority. Exactly how many people do YOU know with access to these sites? There you go!
05/10/2001 (4:44 pm)
Brain,Sorry about using your full name. Force of habit. :)
On to the subject though.
I typed in Unreal Tournament and looked those matches and links. GUESS WHAT. Any "warez" of UT is actually a link to porno site or the files with completely link dead. In fact there were so many "see my dorm" and "ugly mature sex" pop-ups ads, I had load up a pop-up stopper just to close my IE. Each pop-up just spawned 2 more pop-ups when I closed it. Even IF a download would start, you would get less than 1kbs and there's no garantee that file is good or all 300 of the zips are actually there.
So there you go. Those so-called warez sites are all fake.
That just brings me back to subject of the uber-casual pirate. They can't get Unreal Tournament warez through "normal" means of searching on the Internet. GO AHEAD AND TRY! Show me a link! Ah you know I'm right, warez just aren't THAT easy to get online.
So where does the uber-casual pirate get this software. From a friend. Either sent through ICQ or physically copied. Do you really want to argue that point? That's who we want to stop. Stop the average guy from effortlessly copying the program.
Forget about the hardcore l33t h4x0r. He's got his super secret FTP, IRC channel, or web site. But it isn't open to the public. Those people are in the minority. Exactly how many people do YOU know with access to these sites? There you go!
#19
so have a nice day ;-)
05/10/2001 (7:37 pm)
Um no, warez sites are NOT fake, warez is very much alive and kicking. Im not going to post any live links here but they are out there and not that hard to find. Ever used hotline? about 10 000 servers on there with nothing BUT warez and pr0n, its the scumm of the internet. And now i dont remember why im posting this .. so have a nice day ;-)
#20
In my experience with casual gamers (and believe me, this is most of them), they don't know about warez, cracks, etc.. However, and here is the problem, they also don't know about help forums, game websites, etc.. So electronically distributed games are likely to reach a more knowledgeable audience, one which is used to getting things for free over the internet. This is why I'm interested in this thread, and really find everyone's comments usefull.
From what this forum is saying, finding warez sites is a little hit and miss. For thoose of you who can, don't argue that means everyone can, as the fact that some people on this forum (who are more knowledgeable than most potential customers) can't is sufficient. Warez still poses a threat though.
Daniel - I'm disgusted by people cracking Milkshape and warezing your game, as there is not even the pseudo-moralistic-religeous argument that this is some kind of fight against the big companies. However, it would be usefull to know if this does indeed subtract from sales. If you have any information about this, I would be extremely gratefull. I think that statistically the argument still stands that the bigger the audience for a game, the more likely it is for that game to find it's way onto the underground market. This is still the realm of probability though, and so your individual case is potentially not revealing of the true situation. We need more information.
Luc - CD distribution by post for an extra fee may well be possible (there are shareware sales sites that do this), but I doubt GG will do this for some time. Putting your CD in a shop will only be for the titles that make it big, or catch Sierra's eye, due to the hideous expenses involved.
Brian - I think you're correct about us having to handle our own services. We are doing so, though as yet we don't know if we'll be using GG (we're not a V12 product). I still hope our software as service approach will help combat theft, by devalueing the product without the service.
Online key (lets stop saying CD-Key, as there's no CD - or does this mean something else?) authentication will help online games, and products such as gamespy's are available to developers who wish to go that route. We are currently assessing wether to go this route, or use our own in-house authentication system which uses http protocols and so the server can run on any web server with cgi. You can get a sufficiently powefull system for a game with a small userbase (some 10,000s) for $10 a month. If we go our own route, we'll let anyone interested know, but this won't happen for a while.
Don - you're right, we need numbers. I'm going to try and get some statistics by web research (can't promise how quickly). Can anyone else help out by having a look at this issue?
Good luck to all - may the copyright and copyleft be with you!
Doug EnkiSoftware Limited
05/11/2001 (2:47 am)
This thread is growing! So I apologise (hey, I'm British - it's in my culture) for adding more...In my experience with casual gamers (and believe me, this is most of them), they don't know about warez, cracks, etc.. However, and here is the problem, they also don't know about help forums, game websites, etc.. So electronically distributed games are likely to reach a more knowledgeable audience, one which is used to getting things for free over the internet. This is why I'm interested in this thread, and really find everyone's comments usefull.
From what this forum is saying, finding warez sites is a little hit and miss. For thoose of you who can, don't argue that means everyone can, as the fact that some people on this forum (who are more knowledgeable than most potential customers) can't is sufficient. Warez still poses a threat though.
Daniel - I'm disgusted by people cracking Milkshape and warezing your game, as there is not even the pseudo-moralistic-religeous argument that this is some kind of fight against the big companies. However, it would be usefull to know if this does indeed subtract from sales. If you have any information about this, I would be extremely gratefull. I think that statistically the argument still stands that the bigger the audience for a game, the more likely it is for that game to find it's way onto the underground market. This is still the realm of probability though, and so your individual case is potentially not revealing of the true situation. We need more information.
Luc - CD distribution by post for an extra fee may well be possible (there are shareware sales sites that do this), but I doubt GG will do this for some time. Putting your CD in a shop will only be for the titles that make it big, or catch Sierra's eye, due to the hideous expenses involved.
Brian - I think you're correct about us having to handle our own services. We are doing so, though as yet we don't know if we'll be using GG (we're not a V12 product). I still hope our software as service approach will help combat theft, by devalueing the product without the service.
Online key (lets stop saying CD-Key, as there's no CD - or does this mean something else?) authentication will help online games, and products such as gamespy's are available to developers who wish to go that route. We are currently assessing wether to go this route, or use our own in-house authentication system which uses http protocols and so the server can run on any web server with cgi. You can get a sufficiently powefull system for a game with a small userbase (some 10,000s) for $10 a month. If we go our own route, we'll let anyone interested know, but this won't happen for a while.
Don - you're right, we need numbers. I'm going to try and get some statistics by web research (can't promise how quickly). Can anyone else help out by having a look at this issue?
Good luck to all - may the copyright and copyleft be with you!
Doug EnkiSoftware Limited
William Finlayson
Perhaps you could sell over GG, but write CD's yourself, and have GG link to your site and distribute the CD's yourself.
I doubt that you could stop it being pirated, but you could have a go.