Class Writeup Discussion
by James Margaris · in General Discussion · 07/15/2002 (12:32 am) · 14 replies
The class writeup can be found here. Use this thread to for comments about the document.
About the author
#2
As for being able to distinguish between teammates, if you can see what race they are, then you can see what color uniform they're wearing or what color 'element' they have hanging over their head.
07/15/2002 (6:19 am)
I think it'd be better if there was a racial mixing. You get a good variety on each team and you don't limit yourself to the number of people on each team. What if I only wanted to be an Orc and couldn't find any other servers with any Orcs? I'd be upset.As for being able to distinguish between teammates, if you can see what race they are, then you can see what color uniform they're wearing or what color 'element' they have hanging over their head.
#3
I agree that for the next couple of milestones we should allow any race on either team b/c of the few number of available classes. There will have to be something to distinguish the teams from each other as long as this period is going on but after we have a more complete set of classes (maybe 3 per team) then we could drop the distinguishing marker/color. I know that a question had been raised before about custom models and I think the easiest answer is to make it so that custom models don't automatically download. If you wanted to change your orc model to a powerpuff girl then you would be the only one who would see the orc as such and it would be up to you to remember that the powerpuff girl is really an orc. Another thought would be to make the team marker an icon that also distinguishes your class (an orc would have a spiked fist icon, a knight crossed swords). If the icons were simple enough they should be readily visble from a distance.
After logging more than 14 hours of multiplayer Halo the last two weekends, I can testify to the fact that limiting the number of weapons you can carry on you doesn't slow down the action in any appreciable way while adding a nice little bit of stategy to the gameplay. Whether this is done with weapon slots or weight limits, I really don't have a preference. I like the idea of being able to carry weapons to your teammates but in my experience I have found that this capability isn't really used very much.
07/15/2002 (8:31 am)
I think that set alliances (humans and elves vs. orcs and minotaurs or whatever) between races would be the best approach also. It would allow for a much greater variety per team and would allow you to have those unique one or two class races (like dwarves or minotaurs). The class list I posted was done under the premise that it would be one race per team so I will spend some time rethinking it. Figuring out who is on your team would be straightforward as you would always know that humans and elves are together (personally, I want to see elves and orcs allied =).I agree that for the next couple of milestones we should allow any race on either team b/c of the few number of available classes. There will have to be something to distinguish the teams from each other as long as this period is going on but after we have a more complete set of classes (maybe 3 per team) then we could drop the distinguishing marker/color. I know that a question had been raised before about custom models and I think the easiest answer is to make it so that custom models don't automatically download. If you wanted to change your orc model to a powerpuff girl then you would be the only one who would see the orc as such and it would be up to you to remember that the powerpuff girl is really an orc. Another thought would be to make the team marker an icon that also distinguishes your class (an orc would have a spiked fist icon, a knight crossed swords). If the icons were simple enough they should be readily visble from a distance.
After logging more than 14 hours of multiplayer Halo the last two weekends, I can testify to the fact that limiting the number of weapons you can carry on you doesn't slow down the action in any appreciable way while adding a nice little bit of stategy to the gameplay. Whether this is done with weapon slots or weight limits, I really don't have a preference. I like the idea of being able to carry weapons to your teammates but in my experience I have found that this capability isn't really used very much.
#4
Owen
07/15/2002 (8:44 am)
I don't dislike the idea of the Kender, however we would not be able to use the them as they are property of TSR. I think the sooner we alter that race to something of our own devising the better, if people get the idea the Kender are going to be in it will become harder to change it in the future. Personally I think we should scrap the Kender and simply make them a human sub-set, a class with slight Samauri influence perhaps.Owen
#5
The team thing could be a server thing. LIke the server decides upon which side is on which side for the map. This makes for incredible gameplay, and huge flexibilty. so one map you have humans, elves, orcs vs dwarves, Dragonians, Falaks.
Another thing we could do is have 6 races, and with the spare ones make them computer AI'd and you can purchase/hire them to accompany you into battle.
07/15/2002 (9:18 am)
I think a good replacement name could be Falack pronouinced feig-lack.The team thing could be a server thing. LIke the server decides upon which side is on which side for the map. This makes for incredible gameplay, and huge flexibilty. so one map you have humans, elves, orcs vs dwarves, Dragonians, Falaks.
Another thing we could do is have 6 races, and with the spare ones make them computer AI'd and you can purchase/hire them to accompany you into battle.
#6
I like Justin's idea of a couple of pure NPC races that can be brought in as Mercenaries as it adds a nice twist, especially if the AI promised is as good as it seems it could be quite interesting. The only problem is then to figure out how hire them.
Stealing a race as a whole is bad, we can draw inspiration from other places but to simply take and rename a race created by another person (not standard races though, elves are slightly different) is not a good idea.
Personally whilst I believe coming up with ideas for a lot of races is a good idea we should whittle them down to 2 or 3 for each side. The thinking behind this is we can then create a series of classes for each race, so for the humans we could have monk, wizard, archer and knight for example and they would all have similar aspects to their model and general make up.
My current like is a side consisting of Humans and Elves with one new race Vs Demons, Orcs and Humans.
Personally I would prefer to have totally created sides rather they relying on standard fantasy stuff but that is just personal preference.
I am also of the opinion to disallow custom models, unless there was a method to ensure it only impacted your own gameplay.
I also agree that for the next couple of milestones races should be allowed on any team, but not as the same class, simply as a placeholder for models that will come later down the line, the actual classes should be provisionally put in place fairly quickly so that models can be tailored for them, as well as the balancing process beginning.
Weight restrictions I am not sure would fit in with the feel of the game, but a strict weapon limit, like Halo, actually, imho, adds to the strategy, especially if a class has access to more weapons than it is allowed.
Weapon enchanting should be a little more involved than simply finding a powerup, what appeals finding a randomly spawned power up (so we don't see a flock of people queuing outside a temple), and as suggested taking it back to your base and using a smithy there to enchant it.
Owen
07/15/2002 (9:38 am)
I disagree with the server chosing the teams, to balance the teams properly they should be fixed.I like Justin's idea of a couple of pure NPC races that can be brought in as Mercenaries as it adds a nice twist, especially if the AI promised is as good as it seems it could be quite interesting. The only problem is then to figure out how hire them.
Stealing a race as a whole is bad, we can draw inspiration from other places but to simply take and rename a race created by another person (not standard races though, elves are slightly different) is not a good idea.
Personally whilst I believe coming up with ideas for a lot of races is a good idea we should whittle them down to 2 or 3 for each side. The thinking behind this is we can then create a series of classes for each race, so for the humans we could have monk, wizard, archer and knight for example and they would all have similar aspects to their model and general make up.
My current like is a side consisting of Humans and Elves with one new race Vs Demons, Orcs and Humans.
Personally I would prefer to have totally created sides rather they relying on standard fantasy stuff but that is just personal preference.
I am also of the opinion to disallow custom models, unless there was a method to ensure it only impacted your own gameplay.
I also agree that for the next couple of milestones races should be allowed on any team, but not as the same class, simply as a placeholder for models that will come later down the line, the actual classes should be provisionally put in place fairly quickly so that models can be tailored for them, as well as the balancing process beginning.
Weight restrictions I am not sure would fit in with the feel of the game, but a strict weapon limit, like Halo, actually, imho, adds to the strategy, especially if a class has access to more weapons than it is allowed.
Weapon enchanting should be a little more involved than simply finding a powerup, what appeals finding a randomly spawned power up (so we don't see a flock of people queuing outside a temple), and as suggested taking it back to your base and using a smithy there to enchant it.
Owen
#7
Lately on Starsiege, a game created by quite a few members of the dev team here, there has been a new type of game introduced called C & D: Command and Destroy.
In this type of game, you can purchase AI units of any kind, including turrets. The problem here is that if you join the server, sometimes you'll encounter someone who's amassed a whole army of these AI, which makes the game almost pointless to fight in. That's my main concern in pursuing something like purchasing AI assitance. Personally, I feel introducing that into multiplayer isn't a good idea. Putting it in its own type of game aside from TDM and DM is a good idea though. C & D is somewhat popular on Starsiege, so I'm sure it'll do well on a game that isn't 4 years old.
07/15/2002 (9:57 am)
I'll have to put some input in about hiring mercenary races...Lately on Starsiege, a game created by quite a few members of the dev team here, there has been a new type of game introduced called C & D: Command and Destroy.
In this type of game, you can purchase AI units of any kind, including turrets. The problem here is that if you join the server, sometimes you'll encounter someone who's amassed a whole army of these AI, which makes the game almost pointless to fight in. That's my main concern in pursuing something like purchasing AI assitance. Personally, I feel introducing that into multiplayer isn't a good idea. Putting it in its own type of game aside from TDM and DM is a good idea though. C & D is somewhat popular on Starsiege, so I'm sure it'll do well on a game that isn't 4 years old.
#8
07/15/2002 (11:49 am)
Limits would obviously have to placed on how many AI could be brought in, perhaps say 3 per player, plus I suspect that 1 summoned at a time would probably be the norm.
#9
About races & teams: I think one of the primary appeals of races or alliances is that they would play somewhat differently. Starcraft is a good example of this. The three sides all have some different fundamental mechanisms, not just different stats on units. Ideas about how to do this in RW would be appreciated. The idea of having different alliances loses some of its appeal if the alliances are essentially the same with different graphics.
I also think you need a bare minimum of 3 sides to make it worthwhile. Two sides is extremely weak, it gives you one matchup other than a mirror match. To do alliances properly IMO you need at least 3 sides with at least 4 classes each. Less than 4 classes doesn't leave much room for choice on a side and leads to a lot of redundant units.
About identification: We will come up with a good method to identify teammates. Color, icons, floating arrows, something. Relying on the actual character class graphics may not be enough if we want to allow the same alliance mirror matches, which we most likely want to do. (IE, Humans vs. Humans)
About hiring NPC units: It may be possible to hire NPC units, I prefer NPC units that need some player supervision. For example, a Golem that must be directed, a seige engine that most be operated, etc. That places a natural limit on the usefullness of NPCs. 20 catapaults sitting around isn't going to be helpful to anyone unless they man them. I don't see much point in being allowed to hire a lot of mercenaries, it would just throw off the numbers balance and not be terribly interesting.
07/15/2002 (6:24 pm)
Lots of discussion, OK a few thoughts:About races & teams: I think one of the primary appeals of races or alliances is that they would play somewhat differently. Starcraft is a good example of this. The three sides all have some different fundamental mechanisms, not just different stats on units. Ideas about how to do this in RW would be appreciated. The idea of having different alliances loses some of its appeal if the alliances are essentially the same with different graphics.
I also think you need a bare minimum of 3 sides to make it worthwhile. Two sides is extremely weak, it gives you one matchup other than a mirror match. To do alliances properly IMO you need at least 3 sides with at least 4 classes each. Less than 4 classes doesn't leave much room for choice on a side and leads to a lot of redundant units.
About identification: We will come up with a good method to identify teammates. Color, icons, floating arrows, something. Relying on the actual character class graphics may not be enough if we want to allow the same alliance mirror matches, which we most likely want to do. (IE, Humans vs. Humans)
About hiring NPC units: It may be possible to hire NPC units, I prefer NPC units that need some player supervision. For example, a Golem that must be directed, a seige engine that most be operated, etc. That places a natural limit on the usefullness of NPCs. 20 catapaults sitting around isn't going to be helpful to anyone unless they man them. I don't see much point in being allowed to hire a lot of mercenaries, it would just throw off the numbers balance and not be terribly interesting.
#10
Conversely the elvish elementals (if implemented) would actively protect themselves as if is a partnership between the 2 races rather than anything else.
Owen
07/15/2002 (6:47 pm)
The familiar system idea I put out in the magic discussion could fill this void, obviously siege weapons will fill the vehicle niche (perhaps a few interesting things like steam buggies could also be included), but say on the demon front an acolyte could summon a demon to do his bidding, but the demon really doesn't want to be in control of this pathetic human, so wont do anything he isn't instructed to do, except perhaps defend himself, but maybe that could the limitation on the demon side, the demons will allow the bodies created for them to be destroyed to escape, so without being told to defend they wont.Conversely the elvish elementals (if implemented) would actively protect themselves as if is a partnership between the 2 races rather than anything else.
Owen
#11
Higher you go the more it is for that unit, and it still asts 30 sec. after that the mercenary feels the money is no good and loses the allegiance there by walking off. If attacked then he retaliates to all in sight. Don tneed the last part but this fixes the whole thing. Solvs the whole issue on ammasing too many and just set a limit to 1 per person. so yoou can doulbe ur army size plus a few more due to summoning.
07/15/2002 (8:31 pm)
Limit how long you can hire like say the hiring is like 20 dollars then they last like 30 sec. Higher you go the more it is for that unit, and it still asts 30 sec. after that the mercenary feels the money is no good and loses the allegiance there by walking off. If attacked then he retaliates to all in sight. Don tneed the last part but this fixes the whole thing. Solvs the whole issue on ammasing too many and just set a limit to 1 per person. so yoou can doulbe ur army size plus a few more due to summoning.
#12
07/15/2002 (9:51 pm)
No don't like that idea. I feel that if we have mercenaries they shouldn't be too strong and should only leave the battlefield once killed, afterall on Tribes size maps 30 seconds isn't really that long.
#13
Perhaps some races/classes could spill over between different sides, just with different uniforms. This would make the choice of class separate from that of which team you played on to a limited extent.
This would also allow for the more unusual races and classes that would be specific to a particular army. I think it is important to keep some unique character types available, as I am tired of fantasy games that can't think outside the human/dwarf/elf/orc stereotype. Even having more monstrous races to go along with the orcs - gnolls, kobolds, lizardmen - would add to the variety without breaking out of the D&D fantasy paradigm. It would also create an opportunity for much more creativity in racial concepts. While the standard races have been recreated in a hundred different titles, some of these other common fantasy creatures are practically begging to hbe used in new and interesting ways.
Oh yeah, and we can't forget the Pandarans ;)
08/02/2002 (5:13 pm)
I have to say that I like the idea of making 3 or 4 sides with highly contrasting powers (not unlike starcraft as James Margaris mentioned). Balance becomes more difficult then, but it adds tremendously to the flavor of the game.Perhaps some races/classes could spill over between different sides, just with different uniforms. This would make the choice of class separate from that of which team you played on to a limited extent.
This would also allow for the more unusual races and classes that would be specific to a particular army. I think it is important to keep some unique character types available, as I am tired of fantasy games that can't think outside the human/dwarf/elf/orc stereotype. Even having more monstrous races to go along with the orcs - gnolls, kobolds, lizardmen - would add to the variety without breaking out of the D&D fantasy paradigm. It would also create an opportunity for much more creativity in racial concepts. While the standard races have been recreated in a hundred different titles, some of these other common fantasy creatures are practically begging to hbe used in new and interesting ways.
Oh yeah, and we can't forget the Pandarans ;)
#14
I guess I'd just say its worth considering whether there is some other method of identification that could be used that would fit better thematically... floating icons always seem like something that belongs in sci-fi games to me.
08/02/2002 (5:17 pm)
Also, if it were really necessary to have floating arrows/icons to indicate team members, it seems that it would be simple enough to have a line art symbol for each class, and just recolour it based on team.I guess I'd just say its worth considering whether there is some other method of identification that could be used that would fit better thematically... floating icons always seem like something that belongs in sci-fi games to me.
Eli McClanahan
As for weapons, I'd suggest giving everyone basic weapons, and have enhanced forms of those weapons lying around. Or better yet, have items that increase the power of standard weapons, such as magical blessing items, or new metals that you have to take to a smelter to place on your weapon.
I don't really like the idea of having weight restrictions. This is, I feel, too fast-paced of a battle system to waste time wondering what to pick up and carry.