AFTERMATH - flaw in the system

#1 Your games plot is so much more realistic and frightening than most I've seen. It will be very controversial and a lot of republicans will try to destroy you, but thats how it is. The whole cult aspect sounds kinda iffy, but I think a 'sparking the next civil war' type game would be thought provoking, but also unrealistic now that EVERY AMERICAN has been brainwashed by our government.

Oh well... good luck.

#2 hey man! thats exactly what im talking about! BRAINWASHED AMERICANS

I'd like to see one guy parade down the street with a burning flag, while not being yelled at for unconstitutional

And i dont worry about the guys who will come at me with threats or shit on my game

Anti - Flag

#3 Actually, I'd rather see marching down the street the hundreds of thousands men who gave up their lives so that you can burn your flag and make your game in relative comfort.

That's what the Flag is about.

#4 hey man. dont mean to offend you but thats what the war shit is about. what does the flag mean you think about that then you think about how it reflects overall on usa

id would also like you to think about your life for a moment whoever cares and think about it. most of our life we are forced to do things we would rather not do, but we think its what god intended us to do. To live as slaving pigs. I am forced to go to school, then, if i actually want to survive in this economy, i must go to college to get a damn decent job so i can support a family and live in a nice house.
The only time left for whatever you want to do is when you are fu**ing retired and are too old to move. That is why i am moving to Turkey where my real home is and real people live.

Now you think

#5 Anti-Flag. I wholeheartedly support your desire to leave this country.

Now, go pack your bags.

The FBI has already been dispatched to your house for your canned teenage-angst and hatred of the government and capitalism as well as the disrespect of the thousands who died for this country in war. I'll tell them you went to Canada, and you won't ever have to come back here.

That's a win-win situation for you and all of the citizens of the United States.

#6 I dont have any disrespect for the people who died in the war. My grandpa died in nam in his fighter jet so dont you tell me when to leave this damn country. And i dont hate the government, I hate the lying and hateful officials who kill the innocent and act as unrightous. thats what this game is about. corrupt government leaders. And I dislike the disrespect i am getting so if you dont want to add some helpful comments or useful ones just back off

#7 All this punk rhetoric.

Can you please provide a few examples of this corruption that you speak of? I don't deny it exists, but I don't believe your frustration with the government comes from first-hand experience. My guess is you heard it somewhere once and now adopted it as your own.

I don't mind hearing someone saying something that goes against what I believe, but I despise hearing someone repeating something they heard but do not understand.

I acknowledge people's right to freedom of speech, but I will not respect you for stating canned phrases and arguements. It takes a strong person to come to their own conclusions about life without requiring the guiding hand of some adopted party, religion, or movement. A sign of weakness is when someone is unwilling to question what they are provided, and takes what they hear from one source to guide their life and their interactions with others.

I find it humorous that you are willing to stand up to use your right to speak, but people respond in a polite but negative manner you back down and hope for protection. You claim you want to leave the country, but when someone suggests that's a good idea you take offense. Hilarious!

People who don't live in houses shouldn't throw stones. Afterall, you'd have no place to hide.

Just because you cannot defend your original statement, doesn't mean we're the agressors. You picked the fight, now you have nothing to defend yourself with.

#8 "You picked the fight, now you have nothing to defend yourself with"

I picked no fight. It is people like you that turn it that way. no need to write such big statements if you repeat what you say three times my little friend

Now i can say there has been lots of influence from my music i listen to, but everything is true. bush has sent in bombs and has killed many innocent people
I am not anti government but anti war

, I have no feeling for what happened on september 11, but you must have to feel something. It is just the building anger of the hatred for such people inside of me.

And would you stop ASSUMING
Cause you are only making an ass of YOU NOT ME

#9 How can you critisize the president for fighting back after a deliberate attack killed thousands of innocent people, from various countires, on american soil?

Would you have rather he just sat back and hoped it didn't happen again?

#10 If you have no feeling for what happened on September 11th, you might want to speak with your school counselor. It is not normal to be apathetic towards thousands who died in your country or elsewhere, and is a sign of severe problems that need to be addressed.

"I have no feeling for what happened on september 11, but you must have to feel something. It is just the building anger of the hatred for such people inside of me."

I'm not sure of what you meant by this, but I hope you're not saying that you are angry when you see someone who cares about what happens to other people in the world. If you are, then you need to take a look at yourself before you start quoting your favorite song that you or the band doesn't understand.

Apathy is worse than corruption.

#11 "I have no feeling for what happened on september 11"

Wow.

I pity you.

Our conversation is over.

#12 Nick, (Anti-Flag) your site says you're fourteen.

Sorry for being so hard on you, I thought I was dealing with someone old enough to vote or legally drive a car when your mother is in the passenger seat.

When I was fourteen I was hanging out with friends and starting to come to my own understanding of the world. I recommend that you try to do the same, because the ability to credit/blame your music for your beliefs will only last a few more years.

Not taking the time to come to your own understanding of the world will either make for an incredibly immature and disillusioned adult, or a person who is perpetually confused about how to react to other human beings in a civilized society.

#13 First of all i did not critisize bush for FIGHTING BACK
I believe osama and his little clan should be tacken out
We sent in jets and bombed villages and then sent in food? this is all bullshit

And i had feeling at 11th. Of course i was shocked, felt the pain. That is the burning anger inside. people die and things happen in life

STAY DANGEROUS AND THINK FREELY

#14 Hi Matt Webster. Thank you for returning to this post for some more THOUGHTFUL insite. im sure you had lots of friends.
My life as it is does not reflect in this forum topic. I have my own garage band,skateboard, play electric guitar. I hang out with friends all the time that is why i am replying to all your hateful posts at 11:00.
Now you think about your average day. Im sure most people here are lowley losers who need their computers for most of the day to stay alive. I myself spend 2 hours max a day if not less. MY SCREEN GIVES ME A HEADACHE

So now all you that will probably reply with some more brainwashed discourse

i know more than you think i do

and before anyone replies again like all you other idiots who dont know what you are talking about, read the posts and make sure it has anything to do with it

k bud

#15 I feel compelled to jump into this conversation.

First off, good luck with your game Nick. I also like the game idea. The only thing I would change is the cult thing. Cult has such a negative connotation.

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that all americans are brainwashed. You'd be surprised at the number of people who are well aware of the government's actions.

A quick note on flag burning. You can't label burning a flag as constitutional or unconstitutional, it's either legal or not. What can be considered unconstitutional is any laws forbiding flag burning.

Anyways, Nick (Anti - Flag), I respect the fact that you seem to be alert to the events going on around you. Not too many people, young or adult seem to care what the government does in their name. However, Matt does make one good suggestion in that you shouldn't consider just one point of view, but you should always try to expand your horizons...be open-minded. I encourage you to continue to educate yourself, reading, and listening to what others have to say.

Matt, I don't know why you're picking a fight with this guy. You seem to agree with him that governemnts are corrupt. There's no need to go criticizing where he developed his convictions. You're assuming a lot of things about him without ever having met this person.

Shame on you guys for criticizing him because he has no feelings for what happened on September 11th. Do you guys stop and feel bad each time an afghani dies through US aggression? Do you feel bad that more Afghani civilians have lost their lives in this "war on terrorism" than the number of americans in the WTC bombing? Do you feel bad that over a million Iraqi children have died from hunger over the past ten years due to the US-imposed, US-enforced sanctions? I doubt it. So shame on you.

Why do you think this kid is not coming to his own understanding of the world? Just because he doesn't agree with the mainstream point of view of the world?

Jason, so what has this war accomplished? Where's Bin Laden? Where's the Taliban leader? Who's gonna end up paying for all the devastation we've caused in Afghanistan? And after all this, do you believe that there are less people who despise the US, its government and its ways, or more?
I would have rather preferred that our government focused on the problem, and not it's symptoms. We don't ask why these "terrorists" attack us, we just go hunt them down, although for every "terrorist" we kill we breed two more. We (the general american population) seem to assume that these terrorists just hate us, pure and simple, for no other reason than that we exist. There's a reason why we're hated, and that what our government needs to address. Bombing the crap out of another country isn't going to solve anything.It may alleviate our strong urge for revenge, but in the long run, we're just creating more problems, more enemies. think about that.

One more thing, Nick, nothing's free in life. If you want to live in a nice house, and want to support a family, you're going to have to earn it. If you want a decent job, you go to school, or you develop your skills. Don't ever expect someone else to subsidize your cost of living.

Matt, I know it was a joke, but since when is hating the government and capitalism a crime?

-- EDIT
Oops, just saw that last post. Nick, watch yourself. Name calling is not going to get you anywhere. If anything it will just make your other arguments seem less valid. Keep that in mind.

#16 Yacine Salmi-
You have everything thought up for me and i thank you for posting. You have some very good points and some things i said may have not made too much since cause i wasnt thinking straight
I know, i can be lazy but i do work hard for thing, it is just there are some times when i work so hard and i get nothing or just crapped on about it

and sorry about cussing at people i was just feeling the hate from everyone so that can form some mixed or angry feelings ok?

And just remember that is is a game, an altered reality

#17 Yacine,

Your profile says you live in Canada, and your name indicates you may have moved to Canada from another country. Nonetheless, you are not from the USA. Why are you even in this convo?

I was just going to drop it, since I realize that antiflag is young and still has some things to learn (don't we all?). But, your rantings changed that. =/

I need facts and figures on deaths. Not just someone throwing out "more afghanis than Americans". I want proof. Do not forget that it was not us who started this war. Do not forget it IS war. Just because it isn't on YOUR front porch doesn't mean it's not real.

What bothers me most, I think, is that neither you nor antiflag seem to understand the world at all. All it takes is one meglomaniac with a vendetta and a few blind followers (talk about brainwashing)and suddenly no one is safe. At least, it would be that way if we did nothing at all.

I don't want to see Bin Laden, Hussein, or any of those radicals get ahold of a nuclear bomb and set it off in ANY city, be it New York, London, or even your Toronto. Do you?

#18 There are three groups of teenagers in relation to politics.

1. Apathetic. "So what if anything happens? As long as it doesn't affect me directly, I don't care."

2. Revolutionary. "Screw the man, down with capitalism, save the whales, nuke the whales, rage against the machine, and beat a cop!"

3. Aware. "I understand what is going on."

I'd have to say the vast majority of teenagers fall into category one, with a close tie for second between number two and three. I've known a small handful of "revolutionaries" throughout high school and middle school, most coming from desires for anarchy or communism. The ones who take it seriously, don't understand it. The ones who understand it, don't take it seriously and just use it as a social clique of sorts.

Nick, you're clearly a number two. You have many ideas about the world, but none seem to be built around your experience beyond your music. Punk music (especially stuff like Anti-Flag) has been so charged with political messages, that it almost would be unexpected not for you to adopt some of them even if you don't understand them. During some of AF's concerts they'll just shout "f*** the government" and everyone will end up repeating it for a few minutes... but never any reason for it.

If you're angry, you're out of control. Generally, it's a bad thing. If you're angry for a cause, you resemble someone with higher intelligence and maturity and have an excuse for causing problems. Afterall, it's to free Tibet and save Wynona Rider from going to jail!

For me, 9/11 has done the exact opposite as what you state Yacine. I have truly begun to open my eyes to my government and worldwide issues after the attack finally made us realize what other parts of the world lives with.

Yes, I am angry with some of the recent decisions made by Ashcroft and Bush as are many Americans. Just because many people from other countries are jealous of America's success as well as angry for mistakes the US has made doesn't mean all citizens of the country fall into the same stereotype.

The past year has made me realize that I cannot only think of the losses of America, but of elsewhere in the world. Yes, I am aware of the many atrocities in the middle east including Iraq. Just because they are our "enemies" doesn't mean many people from our country cannot feel for them, or offer help.

All countries have problems, and America seems to have more than it's share. One problem the internet makes painfully obvious is that many people in the world will automatically assume things because you live in a country they dislike. Afterall, my vote must have signaled approval for John Ashcroft's constitutional flexibility, or accidental bombings on Canadian troops.

Just because I am a person in a democratic country doesn't make me equally to blame.

#19 Wow, this discussion has taken quite non-gaming related course.
However, games are not just about alternative realities and escapeism (I hope, I didnt mispell the word) - games are essence of all the things we believe and/or want to believe.

After 9/11 I started looking around for quite a change in movie and game industry and soon the change came.
Every third movie/game now is about fighting terror, about threat From Outside and such. I think I havent seen a movie after 9/11 about government being wrong, corrupt and such. I see as a dangerous sign, in fact. I'm not an anarchist, I'm not a revolutionist, but every society needs an injection of small "revolution vaccine" time to time.
Now being in opposition is not even a bad manner - it is being an "enemy".

I love Fincher's "Fight club" and watch it time to time. You know what - it would never make it to the wide screen after September Eleventh. Would it be a loss? I guess so.
And I'm wondering - how many movies/games are we losing now because of this damned date.

And we cant blame the terrorists for This Particular Thing, we can blame only ourselves.

Ok, it might be a little off-course and someone can say - "damn, youre not even an american to talk about it", but I just wanted to remind to all of you, that we are here to make games and making games IMHO means also expressing what we believe in.

I might disagree with these beliefs but I think I should appreciate the amount of work what is done.

Ok, I'm out.

#20 Well, I just lost the whole post I spent the last 40 minutes writing. Yeah, go ahead...laugh at me. I deserve it. I'm too tired to write it again right now, but I will post later.